Anybody out there speak latin?

[Gorth]

Brief explanation: I play this miniature wargame called "Warhammer" and I have a nice undead army lead by a vampire lord and his pet necromancer. Part of the hobby, besides playing battles against other peoples armies is the collecting, painting and modelling part. One member of my army is the guy (or rather the skeleton, think "Armies of darkness") who runs around with my battle standard. This banner is (or rather used to be) painted on a small piece of paper and glued to the banner pole. Unfortunately my banner met an ignominous end (I dropped the miniature into a cup of coffee and no, it's no laughing matter, if he hadn't been a skeleton he would have been boiled alive). The guy survived, got a quick bath in clean water and was all shiny and new. Unfortunately, the same couldn't be said for the banner itself.

 

Time to paint a replacement banner with some heraldic symbols and a catchy motto on it, which is where I need some help. I would like to keep the motto from the old banner, but unfortunately I don't speak latin. The text said:

 

I have a Catapult!

 

Give me your money or I will throw a rock at you

 

(it was made in the time before the rules changed and vampire counts could no longer use catapults. The enemy doesn't need to know though)

 

I tried a couple of online translators, but they came up with different results for the same sentence, so I don't have much faith in them.

[metadigital]

noun: catapulta, ballista (both female)

declined for the (direct) object of the sentence (accusative case), is -am

 

The verb "to have" is habere, conjugated for first person singular to "habeo", BUT,

to say "I have a ..." you say "is mine ..." which is "est mihi", so:

 

"est mihi catapultam"

 

Just looking up the other stuff ...

[Gorth]

Thanks Meta

 

 

Eagerly awaiting second part. First part looks familiar (and unlike the online translations, which incuded stuff like "ego" and what have you).

 

I gave up on the sig viewing a long time ago. Blame Servant of Eru aka Child of Flame aka Fenghuang (sp?) for that

 

These days I check peoples profiles to see their sigs

[metadigital]

donare (to sacrifice) First Conjugation (-are)

 

If = "Si"

 

We want the Active Imperative, which is a type of Subjunctive (the mood represents ideas, possibilities or necessities; often translated into English with auxiliaries: may, might, could, would, should or must): you must:

pecuniam dona = you (singular) must give money

pecuniam donate = you (plural) must give money

 

pronoun: you ("to" = Dative declension of the noun)

singular: tibi

plural: vobis

 

noun: saxum (neuter) "a rock"

and Future tense of the verb "to hurl": iacere

First Person Singular, Third Declension = iacam (or it might be iactam ... I'm not sure )

 

 

Si non pecuniam donate, saxum vobis iac[t]am!

If you (pl.) don't give me (your) money, I'll hurl a rock at you (pl.)!

 

I'd like someone to check that, though, I'm not an expert.

[Gorth]

I'd like someone to check that, though, I'm not an expert.

Uhuh... sure

 

Much appreciated. I'll save this thread.

[Enoch]

donare (to sacrifice) First Conjugation (-are)

 

If = "Si"

 

We want the Active Imperative, which is a type of Subjunctive (the mood represents ideas, possibilities or necessities; often translated into English with auxiliaries: may, might, could, would, should or must): you must:

pecuniam dona = you (singular) must give money

pecuniam donate = you (plural) must give money

 

pronoun: you ("to" = Dative declension of the noun)

singular: tibi

plural: vobis

 

noun: saxum (neuter) "a rock"

and Future tense of the verb "to hurl": iacere

First Person Singular, Third Declension = iacam (or it might be iactam ... I'm not sure )

 

 

Si non pecuniam donate, saxum vobis iac[t]am!

If you (pl.) don't give me (your) money, I'll hurl a rock at you (pl.)!

 

I'd like someone to check that, though, I'm not an expert.

Romanes eunt domus?

 

 

Seriously though, all that brings back memories. I'm far to rusty to be a reliable check, but nothing stood out to me as incorrect.

[Fionavar]

donare (to sacrifice) First Conjugation (-are)

 

If = "Si"

 

We want the Active Imperative, which is a type of Subjunctive (the mood represents ideas, possibilities or necessities; often translated into English with auxiliaries: may, might, could, would, should or must): you must:

pecuniam dona = you (singular) must give money

pecuniam donate = you (plural) must give money

 

pronoun: you ("to" = Dative declension of the noun)

singular: tibi

plural: vobis

 

noun: saxum (neuter) "a rock"

and Future tense of the verb "to hurl": iacere

First Person Singular, Third Declension = iacam (or it might be iactam ... I'm not sure )

 

 

Si non pecuniam donate, saxum vobis iac[t]am!

If you (pl.) don't give me (your) money, I'll hurl a rock at you (pl.)!

 

I'd like someone to check that, though, I'm not an expert.

 

I think that iacam should be in the Present Subjunctive though: iaciam

 

See Negative Imperative

[Gorth]

All noted down :thanks:

 

...

 

I have my own theory on why the Roman civilisation didn't last (something to do with way too complicated grammar and number systems)

[Sammael]

noun: catapulta, ballista (both female)

declined for the (direct) object of the sentence (accusative case), is -am

 

The verb "to have" is habere, conjugated for first person singular to "habeo", BUT,

to say "I have a ..." you say "is mine ..." which is "est mihi", so:

 

"est mihi catapultam"

 

Just looking up the other stuff ...

 

While the object of the sentence "I have a catapult," Habeo catapultam, is undeniably the catapult, when you change the sentence to "Catapult is mine," I think that the catapult is no longer the object - it is now the subject of the sentence. If this is the case, and linguists can correct me, then it should read "est mihi catapulta," or "catapulta mihi est," which is (IIRC) the preferred order of words in a sentence. Compare with Caesar's "alea iacta est," which has the same structure (and, incidentally, it's not "aleam" but "alea").

 

Hope this helps.

[Cantousent]

The words can be ordered as you so desire, although the verb generally ends a sentence in Latin. However, I'm trying to wrack my brains to remember if Latin requires the verb before the dative of possession. Literally, "there is for me a catapult." Sounds clunky in English, but the Greeks and Romans used it all the time.

 

I would agree with Fio, about the present subjunctive.

[Walsingham]

I'm just sitting here in rapt admiration for the intellectual calibre of the forum.

[Dark_Raven]

Veni, vidi, vici .

 

Memento mori.

 

Struit insidias lacrimis c um femina plorat.

 

Word filters..........

Edited February 18, 2007 by Dark_Raven

[Sand]

Man, I really need to brush up on my latin.

[Walsingham]

Man, I really need to brush up on my latin.

 

Yeah, just in case you meet some Roman exchange students...

[Dark_Raven]

Ave caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[Sammael]

I'm just sitting here in rapt admiration for the intellectual calibre of the forum.

Latin is compulsory in Serbian high schools - one year of Latin for students on the science path, and two years for students on the social studies path.

[metadigital]

The words can be ordered as you so desire, although the verb generally ends a sentence in Latin. However, I'm trying to wrack my brains to remember if Latin requires the verb before the dative of possession. Literally, "there is for me a catapult." Sounds clunky in English, but the Greeks and Romans used it all the time.

 

I would agree with Fio, about the present subjunctive.

Right, now you're speaking double dutch!

 

Dative is the indirect object (or recipient); Genitive is the possessive, Ablative is for agents / instruments or sources expressed by "by", "with" or "from". So a "dative possessive" is just not making any sense to me, it's either-or.

 

I was miffed by my dictionary, as I couldn't determine the correct form of "iaciam", let alone conjugate it properly (hence my lack of certainty about the "t"!). I might pick up a copy of Latin Grammar (Gildersleeve, B.L. and G. Lodge) or New Latin Grammar (Allen, Joseph Henry and J.B. Greenough) ...

 

Edit: ooo, a new version!

[Gorgon]

An object can't be in the possessive, possessive is a premodifier, but then again this is Latin grammar, of which I know nothing.

 

Sarah(S) gave(V) John's car (DO/NP) to Ralph's cousin(IO/PP)

Edited February 26, 2007 by Gorgon

[Cantousent]

The dative is used to denote possession regularly in both Greek and Latin. It is so common, I'm a taken aback at the discussion.

 

Please note "o far the dative case has been used to indicate the person advantaged or disadvantaged by an action (mi aurum dedit 'he gave the gold to me', mihi aurum abstulit 'he took the gold from me'; this sense includes the possessor aslo, e.g. est mihi pecunia 'I have money'). But, as was said at the time, the range of the dative is far wider than that, and its root meaning seems to be that the person is in some way interested or involved in the action of the verb..."

 

"[r]emember the two ways of expressing the idea of possession in Latin:

 

(a) Habeo or teneo + acc. 'I have'. e.g. seruum habeo 'I have a slave.'.

(b) est/sunt +person possessing in the dative (lit. 'there is/are to x...')..."

 

Jones and Sidwell Reading Latin page 181. http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Latin-Gramma...TF8&s=books

 

Greek is a little more familiar to me than Latin, but this rule is so pervasive in both languages that anyone who wants to understand either should become familiar with the idea. In fact, sometimes the verb is missing and all you have is the nominative and dative nouns. Catapult for me.

 

I was saying before that Latin generally required the verb before the dative to denote possession. I've since confirmed that Latin generally required the verb before the dative to denote possession.

[Llyranor]

memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori memento mori

[Dark_Raven]

Signum stultus. Pallidus saltare.

[metadigital]

The dative is used to denote possession regularly in both Greek and Latin. It is so common, I'm a taken aback at the discussion.

 

Please note "o far the dative case has been used to indicate the person advantaged or disadvantaged by an action (mi aurum dedit 'he gave the gold to me', mihi aurum abstulit 'he took the gold from me'; this sense includes the possessor aslo, e.g. est mihi pecunia 'I have money'). But, as was said at the time, the range of the dative is far wider than that, and its root meaning seems to be that the person is in some way interested or involved in the action of the verb..."

 

"[r]emember the two ways of expressing the idea of possession in Latin:

 

(a) Habeo or teneo + acc. 'I have'. e.g. seruum habeo 'I have a slave.'.

(b) est/sunt +person possessing in the dative (lit. 'there is/are to x...')..."

 

Jones and Sidwell Reading Latin page 181. http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Latin-Gramma...TF8&s=books

 

Greek is a little more familiar to me than Latin, but this rule is so pervasive in both languages that anyone who wants to understand either should become familiar with the idea. In fact, sometimes the verb is missing and all you have is the nominative and dative nouns. Catapult for me.

 

I was saying before that Latin generally required the verb before the dative to denote possession. I've since confirmed that Latin generally required the verb before the dative to denote possession.

I'm glad we ARE having the discussion, as it can get a little difficult to self-study latin when there are so many different "authorities" (considering that "classical" latin never actually existed, but is an abstract taken from an approximate period in the Roman civilization timeline, beyond which it had already started to mutate); nevertheless, I do apologise: you are correct, and it has been far too long since I sat down at my desk and did some latin homework (Bad meta): dative is the indirect possessive, true.

 

(I still haven't been brave enough to start on Attic Greek, though I did read Paul Cartledge's The Spartans. :D )

 

Still, would dative be appropriate? Indirect possessive object ? Surely it's a direct object of the sentence?

[Cantousent]

I wasn't really slamming you, meta. I love these discussions, as you know. Well, that and I'm not a real Latinist.

 

The subject of the sentence is the thing and the indirect object is the possessor. That just sounds confusing English, but consider the following exchange.

 

"Who's letter is this?"

 

"Oh, that letter is for me."

 

We do the same thing, but our use is tied to specific circumstances.

 

As far as classical Latin goes, I think it's just best to follow conventions. Unfortunately, that means trying to move your mind around conventions that change over time. When you take Latin in most programs, you're almost certainly going to read some of both early and late Republic writings as well as early empire. That's a huge span of time. Take Medieval Latin. How can we appropriately describe Medieval Latin when there is no real consensus on when the Medieval period began?

 

For good or ill, however, I learned Classical Latin. I figure that just means that it was the best period for Latin literature, so folkd took the whole period and called it classical. Same with Greek. You learn Attic Greek, but that's really a misnomer. You've got epic and doric and other stuff mixed in there as well. It's just the difficulty of deciding on classifications. Hell, look at the fantasy poll in the C&C forum above. We can't even decide where to place modern works in terms of genres. :D

[metadigital]

I just want a good dictionary. And I guess I should clear off my living room table and do some more latin practice, too, so that I can move onto reading the vulgate and maybe some Cicero, perhaps even Virgil's

[Fenghuang]

Thanks Meta

 

 

Eagerly awaiting second part. First part looks familiar (and unlike the online translations, which incuded stuff like "ego" and what have you).

 

I gave up on the sig viewing a long time ago. Blame Servant of Eru aka Child of Flame aka Fenghuang (sp?) for that

 

These days I check peoples profiles to see their sigs

 

 

Dude my sig's like the least obnoxious one on the board!