Father murders child over Xbox

[~Di]

If all americans think as you do people, then I pity your country... Goodnight fellas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow... just wow... prejudiced much?

 

An entire speech on taking the Moral high ground, ending it with a National Slur and Insult, well done, that truly shows your enlightenment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you cant differ teasing from prejudice, then I pity ya as well... (I was expecting that kind of reaction, thanks for giving me satisfaction, pal)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know, ramza, I don't know where you get your information on American and Americans, but you really ought to do us all a favor and change your sources. You consistently make statements of "fact" about my country which are not only inaccurate but frequently assinine... ala "George Bush re-introduced the death penalty" and a bunch of gobblygook about California laws that are absolute rubbish (I live in California, btw). Then you make a totally bigoted statement about America which you admit was done solely to annoy others and so that you could taunt us again if someone objects to your rudeness.

 

I respectfully request that you reconsider your behavior here. It does not reflect well on you or your own country.

[Mortis Nai]

However when I reference Capital Punishment I am not speaking of the exact system we have in place at the moment, more rather hearing the verdict and taking "old yella" out the back to a merciful end at the barrel of a shotgun.

 

Here's hoping you're wrongfully found guilty of a capital crime you didn't commit. Would you be content, knowing that it's an acceptable loss? Mere collateral damage?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for wishing me to die in an attempt to prove your point. That's very kind spirited and humane of you.

 

Is that The foul stench of hypocrisy I can smell? Why yes, I think it is.

 

So the Death penalty is wrong, unless it proves you right on an Internet forum discussion?

 

It's good to see your not willing to stoop to levels of pettiness in all of this.

 

So you would not act out against someone whom murdered a member of your family, and seek punishment to the full extent of the law, but someone whom disagrees with you on the Internet should die.

 

Cool, good to see where you stand.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[ramza]

If all americans think as you do people, then I pity your country... Goodnight fellas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow... just wow... prejudiced much?

 

An entire speech on taking the Moral high ground, ending it with a National Slur and Insult, well done, that truly shows your enlightenment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you cant differ teasing from prejudice, then I pity ya as well... (I was expecting that kind of reaction, thanks for giving me satisfaction, pal)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know, ramza, I don't know where you get your information on American and Americans, but you really ought to do us all a favor and change your sources. You consistently make statements of "fact" about my country which are not only inaccurate but frequently assinine... ala "George Bush re-introduced the death penalty" and a bunch of gobblygook about California laws that are absolute rubbish (I live in California, btw). Then you make a totally bigoted statement about America which you admit was done solely to annoy others and so that you could taunt us again if someone objects to your rudeness.

 

I respectfully request that you reconsider your behavior here. It does not reflect well on you or your own country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey, try to prove me wrong then... I am not american, and my sources may be inaccurate, but until this is proven to be true, I have the right to stick to my opinions. I have read many articles, watched many documentaries and such... they cant be ALL wrong... Just prove the contrary and I will believe you... Maybe things have changed since my sources are, let's say, 5 years old, but you still have to prove me that I am wrong. You dont sound any more credible than me by stating that you live in California... Most people are ignorant about their own country's legal system anyway (not that I criticize them for that, but one has to be careful when talking about laws and such, if he/she doesn't have much knowledge in that field).

 

Since when was I was rude? I just said that I pitied your country... I didnt insult anyone here... Pitying someone is considered to be rude? LOL Besides, I said that I pitied your country IF, and ONLY if, all americans were cruel persons such as some of the people on these boards. Yes, no matter what you say, the death penalty is about killing someone and in any case, murder is cruel... You cannot deny that... I can understand people with a lack of education and living in poor conditions being cruel, but I cant forgive cruel people that have everything they wish. We just ought to be more merciful than the rest or else there would be absolute chaos... Fortunately, not everyone is cruel...

 

Believe what you will, I havent done anything to harm anyone's sensitivities... if you dont like europe, just say so... I dont mind, its just your opinion... If you were trying to protect human lives as much as you were trying to protect your country's reputation, things would be better... people just dont know their priorities...game over...

[Krookie]

I've been thinking about this for a while and have come to the conclusion I'd probably punch the baby too. I mean, the baby was free. But, that 360 costs $600!

[Guard Dog]

I've been thinking about this for a while and have come to the conclusion I'd probably punch the baby too. I mean, the baby was free. But, that 360 costs $600!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I guess you can always make a new baby. You can't make a new Xbox.

 

We should be ashamed of ouselves for this one!

[kirottu]

However when I reference Capital Punishment I am not speaking of the exact system we have in place at the moment, more rather hearing the verdict and taking "old yella" out the back to a merciful end at the barrel of a shotgun.

 

Here's hoping you're wrongfully found guilty of a capital crime you didn't commit. Would you be content, knowing that it's an acceptable loss? Mere collateral damage?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks for wishing me to die in an attempt to prove your point. That's very kind spirited and humane of you.

 

Is that The foul stench of hypocrisy I can smell? Why yes, I think it is.

 

So the Death penalty is wrong, unless it proves you right on an Internet forum discussion?

 

It's good to see your not willing to stoop to levels of pettiness in all of this.

 

So you would not act out against someone whom murdered a member of your family, and seek punishment to the full extent of the law, but someone whom disagrees with you on the Internet should die.

 

Cool, good to see where you stand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Uh, overreact much?

 

Alanschu was pointing out the basic flaw of death sentence. Humans are not perfect. We make mistakes. Innocent person(s) have been or will be sentenced to death as long as there is death sentence.

 

The issue isn

[Mortis Nai]

Not once have I said "We kill only bad people" nor have I ever said that the system is without flaw.

 

All I have said is that some people deserve to die for their crimes, and that if the legal system allows us to turn that into a reality I have no problem with it whatsoever.

 

Alanschu in essence said "I hope you one day have to face a death sentence yourself because then you will see things my way" which is an absolutely appalling means of making your point, especially when your arguing from the standpoint of "All life is precious."

 

That's the sort of hypocrisy and selfish logic that has people murdering other human beings in the attempt to save a nest of eggs in a Forrest that's about to be cut down.

[kirottu]

All I have said is that some people deserve to die for their crimes, and that if the legal system allows us to turn that into a reality I have no problem with it whatsoever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Still, there is a price for that and that is occasional life of innocent person. The very person laws should protect. And you have no problem with it whatsoever. Nice.

Edited December 18, 2006 by kirottu

[Pidesco]

I don't get this "deserve to die" stuff. Unless there's a practical point to the killing, why do it at all?

[alanschu]

The more horrifying prison is, the fewer people we will have in it. Recitivisim will drop if we make or prisons more like the isolation cells at Devil's Island during the turn of the 20th Century. That the repeat offender rate is so high now when we do so much to rehabilitate tells me that rehabilitation is a fools errand anyway. So you make it so terrible and so dehumanizing (which means so much worse than it is now) that no one will repeat for fear of going back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Anything to substantiate that this will actually work, and not cause more problems by disconnecting these people with realitity.

 

"Logic" and "commonsense" make what you say seem true. But I've seen logic and commonsense be so absolutely wrong that I always view it with skepticism.

 

 

And a recidivism rates as high as you make it out to be? A study done in 2003-2004 demonstrated that recidivism rates for sexual offenders has decreased since 1998 (and that a whopping 73% of sexual offenders are never arrested later on. But commonsense has told us that once a sexual predator, always a sexual predator. WTF!?!). Recidivism is overstated in the media. It makes for a juicy story. You don't hear about the guy that gets out of prison and never commits another crime again. It's just not interesting enough.

 

I'm not sure recidivism is the problem.

 

 

 

Thanks for wishing me to die in an attempt to prove your point. That's very kind spirited and humane of you.

 

Is that The foul stench of hypocrisy I can smell? Why yes, I think it is.

 

So the Death penalty is wrong, unless it proves you right on an Internet forum discussion?

 

Yes, I really want you to die. Hear that woosh, that was the point flying over your head. Instead you decide to strawman and deflect the argument.

 

It's good to see your not willing to stoop to levels of pettiness in all of this.

 

So you would not act out against someone whom murdered a member of your family, and seek punishment to the full extent of the law, but someone whom disagrees with you on the Internet should die.

 

Cool, good to see where you stand.

 

No, I'm not saying you should die. But perhaps if it was you that had to suffer execution for the crimes of someone else, it may "enlighten" (since that's a word you seem to enjoy using) your perspective on the issue.

 

 

Not once have I said "We kill only bad people" nor have I ever said that the system is without flaw.

 

The only way a death penalty is effective and just is if the system is indeed without flaw.

 

 

 

Alanschu in essence said "I hope you one day have to face a death sentence yourself because then you will see things my way" which is an absolutely appalling means of making your point, especially when your arguing from the standpoint of "All life is precious."

 

I said no such thing. Here's my statement:

 

Here's hoping you're wrongfully found guilty of a capital crime you didn't commit. Would you be content, knowing that it's an acceptable loss? Mere collateral damage?

 

Since you seem to acknowledge that they don't only kill bad people, if it was your life that was accidentally deemed worthy to be executed, would you still support the death penalty? Is it an acceptable loss knowing that while your life will be forfeit, the fact that the majority of death row inmates deserve it and therefore you'll be okay with sacrificing yourself? A martyr of sorts?

 

It's hyperbole for effect, and apparently it went way over your head. I didn't say what I said simply because you disagreed with me, I said what I said because it's much easier to make decisions about who should or should not live when it's not yourself in the equation. Furthermore, your idea of taking people into the back immediately after verdict with a shotgun to the back is what I would call "appalling." The idea of an express lane through death row is a bad idea as it will only increase the number of innocent people killed.

[~Di]

Hey, try to prove me wrong then... I am not american, and my sources may be inaccurate, but until this is proven to be true, I have the right to stick to my opinions.

 

What? YOU are the one making statements of fact about American law. Since when do I have to prove you wrong? YOU have to prove that your facts are correct, since YOU are the one who is spouting them.

 

...You dont sound any more credible than me by stating that you live in California... Most people are ignorant about their own country's legal system anyway ...

 

Oh, the irony. I have merely lived here my whole life, but I am ignorant about the laws that govern me, whereas you, who do not live here, are apparently not ignorant about the laws that govern me. What's more, you feel obliged to spout

arrogant idiocies, challenging me to prove you wrong rather than supporting your "facts" with sources.

 

...(not that I criticize them for that, but one has to be careful when talking about laws and such, if he/she doesn't have much knowledge in that field)...

 

ROFL. Again, oh the irony. I guess your own comment doesn't apply to you, hmmmmm?

 

... if you dont like europe, just say so... I dont mind, its just your opinion...

 

You are the one who is being arrogant and rude, sir, not I. I made no comment whatsoever about Europe, since I do not even know what country you are from. You are the one "teasing" and taunting Americans, even going so far as to claim you had even gotten the reaction you had hoped for. THAT, young man, is rude. At least I was raised that it was rude to taunt people and insult their ethnicity. I have no idea what kind of manners you were raised with.

 

If you were trying to protect human lives as much as you were trying to protect your country's reputation, things would be better... people just dont know their priorities...game over...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nice conclusion. Jump there often? You know absolutely nothing about me or my views on capital punishment other than the fact that I happen to be an American living in California. Guess all of us yanks are alike, huh? LOL. Conclusion-jumping is also rude.

 

Have a nice day.

[Guest The Architect]

It is pathetic how materialistic some humans are. You can replace an Xbox, but you can

Edited December 19, 2006 by The Architect

[alanschu]

The damage has already been done.

 

Exactly.

 

 

You can

Edited December 19, 2006 by alanschu

[Sand]

I don't get this "deserve to die" stuff. Unless there's a practical point to the killing, why do it at all?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The practical point is that these individuals will not kill again nor take up resources to house and feed them till they expire by natural causes.

[alanschu]

Death Row is more expensive than a 40 year sentence in Texas, so the resource argument is out.

 

 

What exactly is the recividism rate for murderers?

[Pop]

Since you seem to acknowledge that they don't only kill bad people, if it was your life that was accidentally deemed worthy to be executed, would you still support the death penalty?

I would say that we shouldn't excercise capital punishment, but I wouldn't say that capital punishment is ethically bankrupt. Innocent people are killed by the state, but that it is unjust to kill an innocent person does not make killing a guilty person unjust by extension. So Mortis Nai would be justified in supporting killing mass murderers, or child rapists. That doesn't mean he's supporting killing innocent people. We can say that the former deserve to die and the latter doesn't.

 

But let's take a look at your argument.

 

(1)If Mortis Nai was convicted of a capital crime he didn't commit, he would not support the death penalty.

(2)Therefore, Mortis Nai cannot reasonably support the death penalty now, when he has not been convicted of a capital crime.

 

It's a **** argument in those terms. The conclusion does not follow from the premise. You should have just stuck with

(1)Capital punishment kills innocent people

(2)Killing innocent people is unjust

(3)We should not do that which is unjust

(4)Therefore we should not enact capital punishment.

 

Which is a sound argument.

 

We have to recognize that there is a dichotomy between the application of capital punishment and the ethical legitimacy of it. We can refrain from killing people and still reasonably accept that some people just need killing, if we stay away from "sanctity of life" arguments. I'm pretty sure I've gone over this before on this forum. But as someone who holds more to the Kantian / Hobbesian view of crime & punishment, I'm less inclined than most to consider the rights and well-being of those who harm others.

 

As for whether this particular guy deserves to die, sounds like second-degree murder or manslaughter. So the death penalty's off the table. But he should be held responsible for his actions, and punished severely. If he feels remorse for what he did, that should be taken into account in regard to the punishment, but not by much.

[Guest The Architect]

So your solution to prison overpopulation is to start killing people?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. Well, not innocent people of course. Only those who have been proven to have committed serious crimes would be executed. Is their any other solution?

 

The effectiveness of forensics is overstated.  The investigators are still human beings that make mistakes, or worse yet, have malicious intent.

 

I blame CSI.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You would be right to blame CSI, since I'm just going by that. I have for some reason assumed that CSI reflects the effectiveness of forensics quite well, even though it's just a TV show. I do agree with what you though. I'm certainly no expert on the effectiveness of forensics.

Edited December 19, 2006 by The Architect

[Sand]

Death Row is more expensive than a 40 year sentence in Texas, so the resource argument is out.

 

 

What exactly is the recividism rate for murderers?

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That is why we need reformation in the justice system regarding the death penalty. It should be more cost effective in executing a convicted murderer. Also our prison system needs a major overhaul as well. They are too soft.

[Musopticon?]

I think it's your justice system that needs an overhaul.

[Sand]

I have a strong belief in punishing the guilty with harsh sentences. The revolving door prison system that we have in the US benefits no law abiding citizen, period.

[alanschu]

I would say that we shouldn't excercise capital punishment, but I wouldn't say that capital punishment is ethically bankrupt. Innocent people are killed by the state, but that it is unjust to kill an innocent person does not make killing a guilty person unjust by extension. So Mortis Nai would be justified in supporting killing mass murderers, or child rapists. That doesn't mean he's supporting killing innocent people. We can say that the former deserve to die and the latter doesn't.

 

If you understand all the ramifications of the death penalty, then supporting it supports the executions of innocent people. Because the executions of innocent people are inevitable. And unfortunately, the executions of innocent people often are not by accident, but rather gross misconduct and malicious intent. Careers are made with high profile death penalty convictions. There's a ton of personal motivation to see someone sentenced to death.

 

 

But let's take a look at your argument.

 

(1)If Mortis Nai was convicted of a capital crime he didn't commit, he would not support the death penalty.

(2)Therefore, Mortis Nai cannot reasonably support the death penalty now, when he has not been convicted of a capital crime.

 

I said no such thing. In fact, I asked him outright if he would still state it. I made no presumptions that if he was wrongly convicted of a capital crime, then he would not support the death penalty. I'm asking him to use some perspective, by preferably placing himself in the shoes of someone that has been wrongfully convicted of a capital crime, and seeing if he would still honestly feel the same way. This is because, even in the magical world of CSI, wrongful convictions are inevitable. Your logical assessment is completely incorrect. And unfortunately, he opted to deflect the issue and argue semantics, and attack my character.

 

It's easy to seem apologetic towards the few innocents that will suffer when it isn't you or someone you actually do care about.

 

 

Yes. Well, not innocent people of course. Only those who have committed serious crimes would be executed. Is their any other solution?

 

The thing is, the people that commit capital crimes and are therefore eligble to death by execution is not really a large number of people at all. Most people in jail are serving much, much less severe sentences.

Edited December 19, 2006 by alanschu

[kirottu]

I have a strong belief in punishing the guilty with harsh sentences.  The revolving door prison system that we have in the US benefits no law abiding citizen, period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Countries with death penalty have higher crime rates than countries without death penalty. It

[Diamond]

I have a strong belief in punishing the guilty with harsh sentences.  The revolving door prison system that we have in the US benefits no law abiding citizen, period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Countries with death penalty have higher crime rates than countries without death penalty. It

[kirottu]

I have a strong belief in punishing the guilty with harsh sentences.  The revolving door prison system that we have in the US benefits no law abiding citizen, period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Countries with death penalty have higher crime rates than countries without death penalty. It

[alanschu]

The interesting thing is that the ones with capital punishment have the highest incidents of capital crime rate.

 

Either the death penalty doesn't really deter people, or states with the death penalty are more aggressive in reporting capital crimes.