50 reasons why.. part two

[Riftworm]

Finally, the reason I really think you're not very bright, is because you keep declaring your opinion as unbiased truth

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Where did this supposedly happen?

 

The reason I'm not seeing you as being terribly bright yourself is making things like this up. Baseless hogwash doesn't go far in revealing much aptitude.

[Pidesco]

05) Corny and overused Spell VFX. Remember how you could actually tell what the oponent was casting, or what buffs he had in NWN1? Remember how impressive you looked when fully buffed in NWN1? Nothing to look at now. In NWN2 The spell vfx are so opaque and similar now that it's hard to tell one from another. Many spells don't even visually match well with the actual spell at all. Some are just flat out corny circles thrown on there with no reference to dimension. I think I saw my grandmothers quilting pattern and my local taco bell clerk's hairnet design!

 

12) Limited furnishings for interiors are near hovel proportions. Remember the endless selections you had to make your interiors look every bit as unique as the feats and skills of your character? Those theme based object menus are long gone. Everyone is in a log cabin with the same rug and chests now, doesnt matter if you're a king or a peasant.

 

18) Dialog options in the OC are actually less diversified than KotorII. You know what's about happen next, and how to get there. Zzzzzz

 

21) Target aquisition is still in beta test right? When I want to click on a hostile I miss and run past him 75% of the time. NWN 1's Bioware team managed to remember people actually need to play this game,

 

33) NWN1 though limited graphically still managed to make armor and weapons look believable. Armor and weaponry looks unresearched in NWN2 . None of it looks either Forgotten realms authentic or conventional Medieval.

 

36) Casters suck now. Remember how being a caster was a viable option in PVP or even OC? Yeah well your level 20 gets like 10 spells total for some reason. Good luck with that.

 

39) Minimap is far inferior to the basic Map of NWN1. At least in that you knew where you were going. try to follow the minimap going from a to b...no seriously try it. Make that square already.

 

41) Remember CEP's great models for NWN1? Custom modeling is made so inaccesible because Obsidian thought their horrid models looked good enough to restrict from public access. So there is no option to tweak their meshes or get an idea of what we can all rebuild to work in game.

 

43) Camera's. I've heard these were patched, but man o man, if you don;t have that patch I feel sorry for you. This was a non issue for NWN1.

 

44) Remember how NWN1 "felt" epic? The overall look and feel and mood of NWN2 was left unrealized when somewhere between the art director and the project lead they lost focus when trying to reinvent the wheel. This quote by Echolocating seems fitting: -- "I

[Riftworm]

05) Corny and overused Spell VFX. Remember how you could actually tell what the oponent was casting, or what buffs he had in NWN1? Remember how impressive you looked when fully buffed in NWN1? Nothing to look at now. In NWN2 The spell vfx are so opaque and similar now that it's hard to tell one from another. Many spells don't even visually match well with the actual spell at all. Some are just flat out corny circles thrown on there with no reference to dimension. I think I saw my grandmothers quilting pattern and my local taco bell clerk's hairnet design!

 

12) Limited furnishings for interiors are near hovel proportions. Remember the endless selections you had to make your interiors look every bit as unique as the feats and skills of your character? Those theme based object menus are long gone. Everyone is in a log cabin with the same rug and chests now, doesnt matter if you're a king or a peasant.

 

18) Dialog options in the OC are actually less diversified than KotorII. You know what's about happen next, and how to get there. Zzzzzz

 

21) Target aquisition is still in beta test right? When I want to click on a hostile I miss and run past him 75% of the time. NWN 1's Bioware team managed to remember people actually need to play this game,

 

33) NWN1 though limited graphically still managed to make armor and weapons look believable. Armor and weaponry looks unresearched in NWN2 . None of it looks either Forgotten realms authentic or conventional Medieval.

 

36) Casters suck now. Remember how being a caster was a viable option in PVP or even OC? Yeah well your level 20 gets like 10 spells total for some reason. Good luck with that.

 

39) Minimap is far inferior to the basic Map of NWN1. At least in that you knew where you were going. try to follow the minimap going from a to b...no seriously try it. Make that square already.

 

41) Remember CEP's great models for NWN1? Custom modeling is made so inaccesible because Obsidian thought their horrid models looked good enough to restrict from public access. So there is no option to tweak their meshes or get an idea of what we can all rebuild to work in game.

 

43) Camera's. I've heard these were patched, but man o man, if you don;t have that patch I feel sorry for you. This was a non issue for NWN1.

 

44) Remember how NWN1 "felt" epic? The overall look and feel and mood of NWN2 was left unrealized when somewhere between the art director and the project lead they lost focus when trying to reinvent the wheel. This quote by Echolocating seems fitting: -- "I

[mkreku]

No I see the rather weak claim to irony. But Soulthief never actually called him a name.

Nope, it wasn't exactly name-calling. It was more like trolling. But it's funny that you feel the need to defend the one person you seem to share your little brain with.

[Riftworm]

No I see the rather weak claim to irony. But Soulthief never actually called him a name.

Nope, it wasn't exactly name-calling. It was more like trolling. But it's funny that you feel the need to defend the one person you seem to share your little brain with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We were all relatively civil before you guys showed up with the name calling. I'm not "defending" anyone, I'm pointing out the flaws in said arguments, and as Volourn emphasized we are doing fine until the name calling attempts at derailment.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Riftworm

[Mortis Nai]

Something I wish to add in my own defence here, seeing as how several sniping comments have been made about the "101 things wrong with NWN2" post.

 

The reason it was written, was that there was an overwhelming sense on the "Sour Grapes" thread that no one would pay attention to it, that peoples issues with the game were so widespread and scattered, or buried underneath a mountain of trolling... that the legitimate complaints would be lost.

 

So myself and my Wife went through the Sour Grapes thread and listed the problems presented there in in a cohesive structure and order and adding our own, using the '101" thing as a nod to all the "101" posts that were released during the prerelease frenzy.

 

The sad part of that is that after hitting 101, people started sending me addendum PM's wishing to add even more issues that they had with the game, that had not been included with the "101."

 

It truly was an attempt to bring to light a full list of peoples stated problems with NWN2, in the hope that they would be brought to Obsidians attention and something would be done about it, rather than them being swept under the carpet and ignored.

 

The sad thing in all that, is that the list has been used as either a substitute for free thought or as an excuse too Troll.

 

I would like the think that it was successful in that goal, as the 1.03 patch makes most of the "Quick fix" problems mute such as duel wield quick slot & the Camera, which as i have stated before gives me a great deal of faith for the future of NWN2, and thus the 101 list is a mute point along with it.

 

I do not hate the game, far from it.

 

I am an avid and rabid fan of the NWN's series, I spent 4 years of my life playing NWN's and I want to do the same for NWN2... But there were and are so many issues with the game brought about by shortsightedness that it seriously hampered my own enjoyment of the game.

 

The attitudes I see in this thread and others in all honesty disgusts me.

 

To quote from another thread.

 

The true detriment and cause of the tensions and bad blood on the forums currently is not that many players are being negative and "Whiny" but that there is a lack of respect for other peoples opinions and experiences.

 

Some people are championing for the Game allowing no one to say anything even remotely negative because it goes counter to their personal experience, and on the other extreme you have people with hidden agendas attempting to make vigilante attacks against Obsidian because of spite and malice left over from another game.

 

All of which would be a mute point if more people could learn to respect the opinions and experiences of others, they do not have to agree with each other, but they can at least a knowledge each other's point as holding some truth.

 

I do not have the right to tell you that your experience with the game is invalid because it does not match your own, just as you have no right to tell me my experience with the game is invalid because it does not match your own.

 

They are two sides of the same coin, and I can honestly say that I am glad you are enjoying the game, I am even envious because I want to be able to enjoy this game as well... but right now I am unable to do so, which is a great disappointment to me.

 

Why is there such a need for so many people (on both sides of the fence) too be so defencive that they cannot allow other people to have differing points of view?

 

After reading through both threads, this entire discussion has been railroaded to little more than childish bickering and name calling which does little good and only serves to further cause friction and tension within the NWN's Community at Large.

 

The Way that i see it:

 

1: The "NWN2 Guardians" need to chill out and allow others to have an opinion, perhaps even going so far as to attempt to see that other people have legitimate complaints even if those issues or problems do not effect them personally.

 

2: The "NWN2 Complainers" need to be less aggressive and provocative and take a far more constructive approach rather than attacking everything in site.

 

3: Obsidian Devs need to be a little more reassuring to both sides of the fence.

 

One side is seeing "NWN2 is perfect and flawless!" in the press which further enrages and adds credence to the feeling that "The Devs are not listening."

 

And the other side needs to have some reassurance that the "Complaints and Negativity" is not going to destroy the NWN2 franchise, as it seems that many people feel that any form of negative criticism upon the name is going to make NWN2 and Obsidian go under.

 

While it is difficult to find that happy medium and balance, in all honesty this is now your Community and it is your job (or at least the job of those you delegate to) to bring peace and restore the middle ground.

 

Perhaps publishing a list of Issues that you are aware of and are looking into fixing, as well as plans for NWN2's future such as the possability or ideas for expansions/Primum Modules, and what you hope to see in the future of NWN2... would save many, many people a great deal of agronomy.

[Riftworm]

Right, so back on topic I'd like to bring to the attention of J Sawyer the actual illustrations of 3.5 at WotC. I'm not seeing these outfits, and they don't seem to paticular about "skin" in their own Dungeon Master 3.5 handbook as you pointed out.

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030711a

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030705a

 

Note these are both 3.5 pages.

 

I haven't seen 2/10th of these guys

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030712a

 

And weapons don't look much like these pages

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20050708a

 

 

Just saying..

Edited November 26, 2006 by Riftworm

[Sand]

Mortis Nai, good to see you over here. I agree that NWN2 has problems but no more problems than NWN1 had at its initial release. With any luck and such these problems wil go the way of the dodo, especially if Obsidian is allowed to support the game like Bioware did for NWN1.

[Darque]

Enough fighting everyone.

 

It takes two sides for there to be a conflict, so both sides are equally guilty.

 

Knock it off.

[Sand]

Enough fighting everyone.

 

It takes two sides for there to be a conflict, so both sides are equally guilty.

 

Knock it off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You should negotiate peace between Israel and Palestine.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Right, so back on topic I'd like to bring to the attention of J Sawyer the actual illustrations of 3.5 at WotC. I'm not seeing these outfits, and they don't seem to paticular about "skin" in their own Dungeon Master 3.5 handbook as you pointed out.

What you're "just saying" is that I'm lying. If you want me to explain things, I will, but come on. I have no significant personal investment in defending choices made on the project a full year ahead of when I took over as lead designer. I also have no personal interest in defending the licensors. It's their license, and they can do with it what they want.

 

The standards for D&D licensees (computer or print) are not the same as WotC's internal standards. In fact, Ryan Dancey said that they were different several years ago (right around the time when Valterra's Book of Erotic Fantasy came out). WotC can show Loviatar as a dominatrix with butt-piercings in Faiths & Pantheons because it's their license. They can also publish Lords of Darkness (drug use) and the Book of Vile Darkness (lots of crazy things) as D&D titles because it's their property. In fact, WotC can apply different standards to different products if they want. They didn't want to be backed into a corner when it came to defining acceptable material (whether for branding or maturity of content).

 

I also didn't say that all of our armor and weapons came out of source material. I said that WotC was very particular about what they wanted. For example, close to the end of the project, they requested that one of our wizard robes (which may no longer be in the game data) be replaced with something that looked more "Forgotten Realms"y. They did not point to a specific illustration and say, "Copy this," but they did outline the particular things they believed would make it more appropriate for the setting. The result is the sort of Jedi-esque outfit that wizards start with in the OC.

[Gorth]

Finally, the reason I really think you're not very bright, is because you keep declaring your opinion as unbiased truth

 

 

Where did this supposedly happen?

 

The reason I'm not seeing you as being terribly bright yourself is making things like this up. Baseless hogwash doesn't go far in revealing much aptitude.

 

Lets see...

 

1. No one would beleive they were in a cave or cavern if they didn't transition through one.

 

2. No one would see the telltale earmark signs of a cave or cavern tileset to believe they were in one.

 

Ah yes, not passing off opinion as unbiased truth. No one and No one, thats pretty absolute statements with no base in facts.

 

And then there was...

 

[quote name='

[roshan]

Actually in these past few threads it has been only the fanboys who have been engaging in namecalling - and these same people have been calling Soulthief a troll. This is obviously unfair, and this must be taken into account before condemning Soulthief for the blob comment.

[Mortis Nai]

Mortis Nai, good to see you over here.  I agree that NWN2 has problems but no more problems than NWN1 had at its initial release.  With any luck and such these problems wil go the way of the dodo, especially if Obsidian is allowed to support the game like Bioware did for NWN1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Patches, Expansions, Premium Modules and Community content will eventually make all of these issues mute.

 

What Obsidian does not Change or further develop, the Modding Community will.

 

However if people are not allowed a Voice to speak what they feel those issues are, then it Leaves the Developers blind and deaf to overall Community demand.

 

One person asking for something to be changed is one voice, and a demonstration of a very small portion of the player base, 50 voices is large and 500 larger still, and if all of them bring up the same general points (Duel wield from A Quickslot as example) then market research tells that it may be an issue that needs to be looked at.

 

The negative side effect of this is that the general forum community has to see and plow through 500 threads about the same things, that general end in heated or outright volatile arguments... which acts as a huge disruption to the Forum Community at large, which justifiably so is aggravating.

 

However, that is one of the reasons people keep forums, not just to give like minded individuals and place to share there interest, but to allow consumers a voice to speak directly to those in charge, as well as to represent a fraction of the customer base.

 

Things ill eventually settle down, the game will become more polished and but attacking each other in the hopes of shooting down other planes in the sky is counter productive on both sides.

 

 

(Darque @ Nov 26 2006, 04:29 PM)

Enough fighting everyone.

 

It takes two sides for there to be a conflict, so both sides are equally guilty.

 

Knock it off.

 

I mean no disrespect, but I think many Moderators on both these forums and Biowares are equally responsible for perpetuating and mismanaging conflict.

 

What I have seen is either a Complete lock down of anything Negative, or allowing discussions get out of hand and throw in there own sniping comments.

 

While I understand it is difficult to be an authority figure, and a member of a Community, standing behind the "Badge" as defence of a "holier than thou" attitude only serves to cause even more friction.

 

I think the Moderators need to get together and reevaluate how they will manage and Moderate the current situation.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Krookie]

Right, so back on topic I'd like to bring to the attention of J Sawyer the actual illustrations of 3.5 at WotC. I'm not seeing these outfits, and they don't seem to paticular about "skin" in their own Dungeon Master 3.5 handbook as you pointed out.

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030711a

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030705a

 

Note these are both 3.5 pages.

 

I haven't seen 2/10th of these guys

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030712a

 

And weapons don't look much like these pages

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20050708a

 

 

Just saying..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are you trying to make people angry?

 

Here's the thing, this is Obsidian's Forum, right? Obsidian is a huge part of NWN2, surly you can agree with that?

 

Now, what do you think is going to happen when you join a community who is made up of Obsidian/Black Isle fanboys? You can't win here because (mostly) everyone loves the work of Obsidian and Black Isle.

 

Oh and if you were "just saying.." you probably wouldn't have spent the time looking for those links and all.

 

Just saying..

[Bokishi]

Yeah, we love Obsidian *smooch*

[Sand]

The moderators here are pretty nice, and allow more freedom than the Bioware mods. That being said they problem most have is not that people are being negative about the game is how they are being negative.

 

Just saying "this sucks" or the OC was "stupid" and whatnot will not go well. We need to boil down the exact problems with the game and have solid possible solutions to fix these problems. Such as if someone dislikes the OC for some odd reason they need to give exact aspects of the OC they disliked and why, then give examples that supports their claims.

[Riftworm]

Right, so back on topic I'd like to bring to the attention of J Sawyer the actual illustrations of 3.5 at WotC. I'm not seeing these outfits, and they don't seem to paticular about "skin" in their own Dungeon Master 3.5 handbook as you pointed out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What you're "just saying" is that I'm lying. If you want me to explain things, I will, but come on. I have no significant personal investment in defending choices made on the project a full year ahead of when I took over as lead designer. I also have no personal interest in defending the licensors. It's their license, and they can do with it what they want.

 

The standards for D&D licensees (computer or print) are not the same as WotC's internal standards. In fact, Ryan Dancey said that they were different several years ago (right around the time when Valterra's Book of Erotic Fantasy came out). WotC can show Loviatar as a dominatrix with butt-piercings in Faiths & Pantheons because it's their license. They can also publish Lords of Darkness (drug use) and the Book of Vile Darkness (lots of crazy things) as D&D titles because it's their property. In fact, WotC can apply different standards to different products if they want. They didn't want to be backed into a corner when it came to defining acceptable material (whether for branding or maturity of content).

 

I also didn't say that all of our armor and weapons came out of source material. I said that WotC was very particular about what they wanted. For example, close to the end of the project, they requested that one of our wizard robes (which may no longer be in the game data) be replaced with something that looked more "Forgotten Realms"y. They did not point to a specific illustration and say, "Copy this," but they did outline the particular things they believed would make it more appropriate for the setting. The result is the sort of Jedi-esque outfit that wizards start with in the OC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I didn't call you a liar ever. I found the actual D&D 3.5 material to differ from your statements and found it curious. Thank you for the explanation.

 

Though I'm still confused as to why WotC would change their standards so profoundly for a PC game utilizing their rulesets, and additionally have so much say over the look of the game itself.

 

How much of that is negotiated, as I can tell from your responses they seem to have a great deal more influence over your basic design decisions than Bioware ever faced. Something I'm interested in speaking with them about.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Riftworm

[Darque]

I think the Moderators need to get together and reevaluate how they will manage and Moderate the current situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not sure what you're implying.

 

These are not the official NWN2 boards, any NWN2 threads here are allowed because they're part of general gaming discussions.

 

If you have some sort of problem with the official boards, you should take that complaint to the official boards.

[roshan]

Right, so back on topic I'd like to bring to the attention of J Sawyer the actual illustrations of 3.5 at WotC. I'm not seeing these outfits, and they don't seem to paticular about "skin" in their own Dungeon Master 3.5 handbook as you pointed out.

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030711a

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030705a

 

Note these are both 3.5 pages.

 

I haven't seen 2/10th of these guys

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20030712a

 

And weapons don't look much like these pages

 

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20050708a

 

 

Just saying..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are you trying to make people angry?

 

Here's the thing, this is Obsidian's Forum, right? Obsidian is a huge part of NWN2, surly you can agree with that?

 

Now, what do you think is going to happen when you join a community who is made up of Obsidian/Black Isle fanboys? You can't win here because (mostly) everyone loves the work of Obsidian and Black Isle.

 

Oh and if you were "just saying.." you probably wouldn't have spent the time looking for those links and all.

 

Just saying..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not everyone that loves Black Isle games is going to love Obsidian games as well.

 

Obsidian is a different company and their games and their RPG design philosophy is progressing in a totally different direction from Black Isle.

[Krookie]

I didn't say they were the same.

 

I mean that most forum members either liked Black Isle, or they like Obsidian, and don't come here to bash the games that they make .

[Dark_Raven]

[quote name='

[Mortis Nai]

I think the Moderators need to get together and reevaluate how they will manage and Moderate the current situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not sure what you're implying.

 

These are not the official NWN2 boards, any NWN2 threads here are allowed because they're part of general gaming discussions.

 

If you have some sort of problem with the official boards, you should take that complaint to the official boards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The moderators here are pretty nice, and allow more freedom than the Bioware mods.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Of that I have no doubt, But reading through all of this thread (Both parts) I noticed some similer themes in how this sort of a discussion is being handled. While I know and Understand these are two vastly different forums filled with very different moderators, its a similer flaw that happens in almost every forum.

 

You either have to enter into a discussion with the Moderator Badge flashing, in there in an "Official" capacity, or you enter into it as a member of that Community because it is a subject you wish to express your own opinions on, and allow someone else to play mediator, otherwise it comes of as biased.

 

Much like children, an online community needs a firm sense of where the line is drawn (Where ever that may be), when the line keeps on changing position because the Moderator is involving themselves into the debate it becomes rather confused and can quickly get out of hand.

 

Because there has been so much heat surrounding NWN2 (Like the release of any new game) and NWN's has an already established and verbose Community, with a great deal of history, it is a little difficult not to allow yourself to be drawn in, and in that sort of a situation a perfectly valid point becomes more fuel to the fire of all involved because someone with "The Badge" is saying it.

 

As much as the general Community needs to chill out and step back, so to do Moderators need to be more aware of the role they play in it all.

 

As I said, I meant no insult, I am just attempting to make the point that everyone is equally responsable for allowing things to be blown out of proportion.

 

I take my hat off and give a great deal of respect to anyone trying to manage all of this right now, because it truly is a loose loose situation.

 

 

That being said they problem most have is not that people are being negative about the game is how they are being negative.

 

I could not agree more, but you cannot expect everyone to be fully articulate in there point. Some people do not have the time to write out long and pointed posts, some people lack the ability. But there is a great deal of trolling that is going on and people need to remember that by not adding fuel to the fire the trolls eventually go away.

 

People seem somewhat tense, and making knee jerk responses to people that normally they would exercise better judgement and not give people whom are trolling the attention and conflict they desire.

Edited November 26, 2006 by Mortis Nai

[Dreammerchant]

Im quite sure bugs will be fixed in given time.

 

Storywise the campaign is quite nice, but badly implemented (sensless alignment shifts, too linear), but that one will be (maybe) fixed by the community.

 

Problems I see in...

 

UI-Gameplay) it is user unfriendly but can be fixed, IF Obsidian want to

Toolset) - lacks content (not enough armors, not enough creatures, there could be more placeables etc)

- whats with preview of objects? Maybe Im missing something, but I cant see how the "swords" looks like when I make it. Bad move...

- userunfriendly (I have to resize any window all the time when I want to change something, I hear no music no sound, a doubleclick on an object means noething, I have to rightklick and choose properties to open them

- ridiculous size of the modules ( I dont think anyone want to download 200mb of a module + a 3gig HAK)

 

As to the 50 points...

 

I wont go into detail here, but Riftworm is right with all his points. Considering NWN2 is a SEQUEL to NWN, it should ADD to the old game, not exchange stuff or even worser, remove it. There is just a lot of stuff, that either got removed completely, or exchanged (sometimes worser then original).

[Oerwinde]

The result is the sort of Jedi-esque outfit that wizards start with in the OC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And those robes are good. If possible I try to keep Sand in one of those robes for the whole game.

 

Also, I see a whole lot of people using the term "mute point" and it bothers me. Its "moot point" dammit.