Judge Hades Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 The Jedi are crap because they could decimate everything. There was no freaking balance to the game whatsoever. They should at least balance out the Jedi and non-Jedi a bit better in the sequal. I would like a reason to have a non-jedi around. Hell, I would love to play a non-Jedi.
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 The Jedi are crap because they could decimate everything. There was no freaking balance to the game whatsoever. They should at least balance out the Jedi and non-Jedi a bit better in the sequal. I would like a reason to have a non-jedi around. Hell, I would love to play a non-Jedi. Jedi have always been lethal though regardless of system. They dont even suffer from the attrition that D&D mages did in 2e (where you are crap for the first levels and that tends to kill a lot them off). Aside from having to follow the code and the threat of darkside points making your character an NPC bit like the fallen Paladin in D&D (west end games version) there wasnt much of a downside to playing one unless it was during the time of the purge where it wasnt to healthy to show any kind of force aptitude. If you can skip around the darkside as PC then there are no negatives at all really. Which might make for a good titanic movie struggle as rival titans meet. Just not for a very varied game. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
Drakron Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 Also the force system was completly flawed. Look at the movies, skill manipulation is what makes force uses make force powers and not "level up and select grip", any jedi could try to use any force power with success and failure being a matter of how much skill does the jedi have. BioWare implementation was the same as Jedi Knight series, except instead of map levels they put character levels but as Jedi Knight done it for map layout reasons BioWare had no excuse except if their game engine could not handle it such a system. I really dont want to see another "CRPG Lite" with half baked rules, if OE is doing a Star Wars CRPG then I want a force system as displayed on the movies and table top RPGs, not another "dumb down" syetem.
Berserk Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 The force Adept class seems pretty interesting as you get force powers although without that tiresome Jedi philosophy and with some loss in force ability. It could make for an interesting story as the Sith and the Jedi might take notice of you try to "draft" you into their fold (the choice to spit in both groups collective eyes and going your own way would be a great possibility )
Darque Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 Jedi have always been lethal though regardless of system. They dont even suffer from the attrition that D&D mages did in 2e (where you are crap for the first levels and that tends to kill a lot them off). /singsong voice on SomeOne Didn'T watCH AttacK of the Clones! /singsong voice off Yeah.. lethal... Jango Fett took out a Jedi with a blaster shot at close range Now that's lethal B)
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 Jedi have always been lethal though regardless of system. They dont even suffer from the attrition that D&D mages did in 2e (where you are crap for the first levels and that tends to kill a lot them off). /singsong voice on SomeOne Didn'T watCH AttacK of the Clones! /singsong voice off Yeah.. lethal... Jango Fett took out a Jedi with a blaster shot at close range Now that's lethal B) Thats a movie not a system. Movies do whatever they want for dramatic effect not because of a rules system. How many Sith did you manage to mow down with a blaster on later levels ? The Jedi in Attack of the Clones animated are much more interesting anyway. It also never would have happened in the rules unless they really scraped the bottom of the barrel for novice Jedi. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
Darque Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 That's not the point, this is BASED on the original source material, otherwise what's the point? Fact: Jedi aren't as "Uber" as people make them out to be. Any games made should reflect the source material.... otherwise just make your own setting. No spin for J00!
Sarkus Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 The Jedi are crap because they could decimate everything. There was no freaking balance to the game whatsoever. They should at least balance out the Jedi and non-Jedi a bit better in the sequal. I would like a reason to have a non-jedi around. Hell, I would love to play a non-Jedi. I think it was the intent of the game designers that you end the game with the 3 Jedi party. This "Jedi focus" is straight from the movies, if you think about it. Almost all the main characters in the second trilogy are Jedi, and the ones that aren't don't usually contribute much in the fights. The original trilogy was jedi focused as well. That's the nature of the Star Wars universe, a universe that can only really be defined by the movies. Other media, even if "official", will never be incorporated because the vast majority of Star Wars fans know only the movies.
Berserk Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 The Jedi are crap because they could decimate everything. There was no freaking balance to the game whatsoever. They should at least balance out the Jedi and non-Jedi a bit better in the sequal. I would like a reason to have a non-jedi around. Hell, I would love to play a non-Jedi. I think it was the intent of the game designers that you end the game with the 3 Jedi party. This "Jedi focus" is straight from the movies, if you think about it. Almost all the main characters in the second trilogy are Jedi, and the ones that aren't don't usually contribute much in the fights. The original trilogy was jedi focused as well. That's the nature of the Star Wars universe, a universe that can only really be defined by the movies. Other media, even if "official", will never be incorporated because the vast majority of Star Wars fans know only the movies. In that case shouldn't some blaster users be absolutly lethal to Jedi since Jango Fett pretty much owns every jedi in the movie until the dumbass loses his jetpack <_< . The point I'm making is that blaster users should have some dirty tricks up their sleeve to surprise/overwhelm a Jedi to even out the battlefield.
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 That's not the point, this is BASED on the original source material, otherwise what's the point? Fact: Jedi aren't as "Uber" as people make them out to be. Any games made should reflect the source material.... otherwise just make your own setting. No spin for J00! Yep but a half decent Jedi would have seen it coming. They are supposed to be pre cognative after all. Even Anakin who wasnt trained had that ability. George often forgets things if it makes for good drama. I think that was the sequence inXS were supposed to appear in too so It dosnt suprise me he wanted them killed off. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
Darque Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 Bzzzzt Wrong again You're not scoring very well in this game ShadowPaladin anakin was an innately powerful force sensitive, which is why they picked him up on tatooine. He is atypical. Also, when you learn a skill, do you master it on day one? No, clearly not. Thus it can be assumed this is the same for jedi as well, especially seeing as they got from Padawan -> Jedi -> Jedi Knight -> Jedi Master Who were the uberjedi in the movies? Yoda Palpaltine SL Jacksons character Obiwan was on par with Jango fett in Ep 2, and was about equal to that maul charcter (who was an apprentice) in Ep1 Vader Obiwan in Ep 4 These are the masters, the ones who are at the high end. Not all jedi would be at this powerlevel. It doesn't even make logical sense that they would be.
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 Bzzzzt Wrong again You're not scoring very well in this game ShadowPaladin anakin was an innately powerful force sensitive, which is why they picked him up on tatooine. He is atypical. Also, when you learn a skill, do you master it on day one? No, clearly not. Thus it can be assumed this is the same for jedi as well, especially seeing as they got from Padawan -> Jedi -> Jedi Knight -> Jedi Master Who were the uberjedi in the movies? Yoda Palpaltine SL Jacksons character Obiwan was on par with Jango fett in Ep 2, and was about equal to that maul charcter (who was an apprentice) in Ep1 Vader Obiwan in Ep 4 These are the masters, the ones who are at the high end. Not all jedi would be at this powerlevel. It doesn't even make logical sense that they would be. Actually the whole precog thing was to account for the Jedi's speed or reaction. Bit irresponsible to push a rookie into a war zone like that isnt it. Not the sort of thing that would be in character for a Jedi at all. Dont you mean Dooku ? (Christopher Lee) He's the one who kicked Obi Wan and Anakins collective butts. Yes but again these are films. They are played for dramatic effect not by a rules system. Prior to EP II and in all the rules systems Jedi have been very much above your comon mortal in ability. Jango shouldnt have been able to suprise a Jedi in that way. He should have seen it coming unless he was completely untrained. The purpose of the sequence is to make Jango look badass. And to further emphasise how much more badass Mace is probably to overcome that whole pink lightsaber thing. If you can recall the colour of the lightsaber you can plot the mininum level he would have had to have been to go down from one blaster hit. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
Darque Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 That Is Not The Point! The "ruleset" needs to mirror the source material.
tripleRRR Posted March 23, 2004 Posted March 23, 2004 Unfortunately it rarely does, especially where LucasArts is concerned. TripleRRR Using a gamepad to control an FPS is like trying to fight evil through maple syrup.
Iolo Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 I think the word you are looking for here is BioWare and not LucasArts. No other LucasArts game other than KOTOR had a "ruleset".
Darque Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 No, he means lucasarts. All third party games need their ok on all aspect of the game (example Star Wars Galaxies)
Drakron Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 How many times do I need to say this ... Force users DO NOT see into the future unless they concentrate and use the force to see into a POSSIBLE future. Look at Yoda in Ep. V to see HOW the force allows to see into the future.
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 How many times do I need to say this ... Force users DO NOT see into the future unless they concentrate and use the force to see into a POSSIBLE future. Look at Yoda in Ep. V to see HOW the force allows to see into the future. Thats the distant future. I'm talking about the pre cog abilities that Anakin has which the Jedi learn as part of their traing which makes them appear to move and react faster. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 ThatIs Not The Point! The "ruleset" needs to mirror the source material. In that case it becomes which source material ? In EP V a jedi was someone trained to draw on the force which existed in all living things. In EP I a jedi is someone with a large ammount of alien bacteria living in their bloodstream. If KOTOR is set 4000 years before EP I then there is no source material to be loyal too (at least from the movies). I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
Iolo Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 No, he means lucasarts. All third party games need their ok on all aspect of the game (example Star Wars Galaxies) Yes but I was referring to the fact that BioWare screwed up the ruleset. The ruleset wasn't even developed by LucasArts. It's Wizards of the Coast who developed it. The previous version of the ruleset was developed by West End games. But BioWare adapted it and didn't do a great job with that aspect of the game. Star Wars Galaxies invented its own ruleset as well. You see I interpreted this "ruleset" as being either WotC's D20 Star Wars ruleset or West End games ruleset (which wasn't used but I bring up to illustrate the point). No Star Wars game is canon anyway and neither is the EU material so no point being too stringent there.
Drakron Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 Thats the distant future. I'm talking about the pre cog abilities that Anakin has which the Jedi learn as part of their traing which makes them appear to move and react faster. They dont have any, I have no idea were some people got that idea but force users dont have any pre cog abilities beyond any natural ones. Heck I have several "I have a bad feeling abou this" experiances and I serious doubt is because I am force sensative.
Darque Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 How many times do I need to say this ... Force users DO NOT see into the future unless they concentrate and use the force to see into a POSSIBLE future. Look at Yoda in Ep. V to see HOW the force allows to see into the future. Thats the distant future. I'm talking about the pre cog abilities that Anakin has which the Jedi learn as part of their traing which makes them appear to move and react faster. Umm... precognition is the ability to divine the future... it does not let you move faster... I think you're getting your force powers confused
Darque Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 Iolo, I see what you're saying. What I'm saying is everything made must be ok'd by Lucasarts... that includes the system. While they don't have a direct hand in it, they can ok or veto any part of it, and I also believe can make suggestions. Heck they even had a "liason" working with the Sony devs on SWG.
Chris Avellone Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 How many times do I need to say this ... Force users DO NOT see into the future unless they concentrate and use the force to see into a POSSIBLE future. Look at Yoda in Ep. V to see HOW the force allows to see into the future. Thats the distant future. I'm talking about the pre cog abilities that Anakin has which the Jedi learn as part of their traing which makes them appear to move and react faster. Umm... precognition is the ability to divine the future... it does not let you move faster... I think you're getting your force powers confused In terms of reflexes (not actual speed), I got the impression from Episode 1 that Anakin's ability to predict the future a few seconds in advance (and react to it) is what made him such a good pilot and gave him his amazing reflexes. It's a shame, too, because that kind of cheapened his skill as a pilot for me. ("Oh, well, it's just the Force that makes him THAT good.") I never got the impression that he was actually concentrating on seeing the future - it was something he did instinctively while flying. Also, Anakin was also said to be able to see "things before they happen," according to his mother, and I'm not sure he was doing so intentionally in those instances, either - I don't think he even knew what he could do. Anyway. I think a Force user's ability to see into the future depends on the Force user.
neriana Posted March 24, 2004 Posted March 24, 2004 Anyway. I think a Force user's ability to see into the future depends on the Force user. "Precognition" feat perhaps ^_^ ? Hmm... I wonder how many times Mr. Avellone has watched the movies lately... hopefully Eps 4-6 more than 1-2 !
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