Most powerful Sith in KOTOR series (spoilers???)

[Xard]

 

Sith Lord is just title. And yes, there is set criteria that determines what is Sith Lord and what isn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's too bad that criteria has nothing to do with an author creating a Sith Lord character within his LA licensed story <sacarsm>. Nihilus IS a Sith Lord, and there is no set criteria for determining a Sith Lord's character.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Sith were a sect of dark side Force users bent on conquering the galaxy and destroying the Jedi. They were characterized by their single-minded lust for power and the brutal methods they were willing to use in order to acquire it.

 

An ancient order of Force-practitioners devoted to the dark side and determined to destroy the Jedi, the Sith were a menace long thought extinct.

 

Nothing about eating all life. And starving to death.

Edited November 12, 2006 by Xard

[Darth Blivion]

So what you're saying in effect is that for you to classify character X as a Sith Lord, he must be a run-of-the-mill megalomaniac of sorts?

 

Again, there is no set criteria that determines a Sith character. Some seek galactic supremacy, some merely seek knowledge, some even believe they are heroes, others like Nihilus believe the galaxy is only good for one thing at that's destruction.

 

The point is: for Nihilus to be a unique Sith character, he has to have a distinctive charecteristic and as a result, the nature of his power is made different from other Sith. It comes down to artistic decisions not some general description of what a Sith is.

[Guest The Architect]

Ah, what the hell. I said I wouldn't post on this thread again, but I can't back away from a debate.

 

Blivion, you do know you're contradicting yourself right? Remember how you didn't put the Exile on your list because you said that:

 

I didn't put the Exile on that list, because even though I suspect that he could very well have learnt Sith techniques in the ds playthrough, I don't think he would care about the Sith code i.e. he'd still be rogue Jedi with intimate knowledge of the Sith ways. A Sith Lord in name alone, not in spirit and mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly the same thing applies to Nihilus as well. He is only a Sith Lord in name, NOT in mind and spirit. At least during KotOR II anyway. Nihilus cares nothing for the teachings of the Sith. He knows about the Sith well (because he used to train in the ways of the Sith) but he's no more than a rogue, inhuman, life eating void in the Force.

 

So I ask, why didn't you put the Exile on your list for? Why is Nihilus on your list for when he's just like the Exile in this case? According to you, there is no set criteria that determines a Sith's character once they have attained that title, but even though the Exile can bear the title of 'Sith Lord' in KotOR II, you didn't put him/her on the list because you said the Exile can be a Sith Lord in name alone, not in mind and spirit.

 

But even then, you didn't put the Exile on your list? Why? Is it because to be/remain a true Sith, you must care about/follow their teachings, even after you have attained a Sith title? Nihilus may bear the title of a Sith in KotOR II, but that is all.

 

Going by your logic, if Malak attained the title of 'Darth' but he became a merciful, compassionate, charitable person (without ever discarding his title) would he still be a Sith Lord? No, he shouldn't be, because by doing those things, he's going against the teachings of the Sith, which defines what a Sith is, thus he's no longer following the teachings of the Sith and cannot really be considered as a Sith anymore.

 

If you don't care about/don't follow the teachings of the Sith, then you're not a Sith. Simple. The title argument is useless, because although Nihilus bears that title, it doesn't mean he's still a Sith (remember, he didn't care about and follow the Sith teachings anymore during KotOR II).

 

The title has no meaning/relevance if it doesn't match the thoughts, views and perceptions of the individual. In Nihilus case, he no longer cared about/followed the Sith teachings in KotOR II, so the title is useless, because it no longer means anything to him.

 

Because of his inhuman status, the title means stuff all in his eyes. To Nihilus, the entire galaxy is just a platter, waiting to be eaten by him. If the title means nothing to the individual, then technically they have discarded it.

 

Also, you still have not proven that (once a Sith has attained the power they sought after) they no longer have to care about/follow the Sith teachings to be a Sith. You haven't proven it and until you do, it's just a myth.

Edited November 13, 2006 by The Architect

[Xard]

And lets not forget Kreia's words that should seal this stupid debate.

 

"The Sith is belief"

[Darth Kavar]

And lets not forget Kreia's words that should seal this stupid debate.

 

"The Sith is belief"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And let's not forget what some of us think to open this debate once again.

 

"Kreia is a stupid old hag" (w00t)

[Xard]

No she isn't. She's not stupid. Annoying maybe, old hag definetly, but not stupid

[Nero]

And lets not forget Kreia's words that should seal this stupid debate.

 

"The Sith is belief"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And let's not forget what some of us think to open this debate once again.

 

"Kreia is a stupid old hag" (w00t)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I still think Palp is from Kreia blood lines some how I know it sounds stupied but they do act alot alike.

[DeathScepter]

Maybe that is why I like them so much

[Purgatorio]

Kriea is a better character than Palpatine, she doesn't cackle like a lunatic.

[DarthReliguim]

And lets not forget Kreia's words that should seal this stupid debate.

 

"The Sith is belief"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And let's not forget what some of us think to open this debate once again.

 

"Kreia is a stupid old hag" (w00t)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I still think Palp is from Kreia blood lines some how I know it sounds stupied but they do act alot alike.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe she was based off of him?

[DeathScepter]

i do think so

[Guest The Architect]

I'm sure I read or heard somewhere that Chris Avellone said Kreia's character was inspired by Palpatine's.

[vaxen83]

It is possible. Considering that Kreia's concept with hooded appearance would be a bit similar to Sidious's look in Episode I, except difference being atrophied eyes and some other contrasts with looks.

Edited November 16, 2006 by vaxen83

[Darth Blivion]

Ah, what the hell. I said I wouldn't post on this thread again, but I can't back away from a debate.

 

Blivion, you do know you're contradicting yourself right? Remember how you didn't put the Exile on your list because you said that:

 

 

 

So I ask, why didn't you put the Exile on your list for? Why is Nihilus on your list for when he's just like the Exile in this case? According to you, there is no set criteria that determines a Sith's character once they have attained that title, but even though the Exile can bear the title of 'Sith Lord' in KotOR II, you didn't put him/her on the list because you said the Exile can be a Sith Lord in name alone, not in mind and spirit.

 

 

 

Going by your logic, if Malak attained the title of 'Darth' but he became a merciful, compassionate, charitable person (without ever discarding his title) would he still be a Sith Lord? No, he shouldn't be, because by doing those things, he's going against the teachings of the Sith, which defines what a Sith is, thus he's no longer following the teachings of the Sith and cannot really be considered as a Sith anymore.

 

 

Because of his inhuman status, the title means stuff all in his eyes. To Nihilus, the entire galaxy is just a platter, waiting to be eaten by him. If the title means nothing to the individual, then technically they have discarded it.

 

Also, you still have not proven that (once a Sith has attained the power they sought after) they no longer have to care about/follow the Sith teachings to be a Sith. You haven't proven it and until you do, it's just a myth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I didn't put the Exile on my list primarily because it isn't a given that he becomes Sith and even so, he did not get his title through the Sith but merely through his knowledge of the dark side and Sith arts. The Exile can be a Jedi just as much as he can be a Sith and even so Kreia mentions that he is not trully Sith in the DS ending. Nihilus on the other hand is Sith and only Sith. He identifies himself and is identified as a Sith Lord within the game.

 

Secondly if Malak or any Sith became charitable and compassionate it doesn't disqualify them from being Sith. What would disqualify them is if they turned away from the dark side. A Sith Lord is essentialy a dark side practicioner, if he no longer follows the dark side then he isn't a Sith. Compassion and charity have nothing to do with it. Sith are human and can love and care for other people.

 

Lastly, I nerver said that a Sith has to abandon the Sith teachings once he has attained the power he has sought after. I said there would be no need for a Sith Lord like Nihilus to follow the Sith teachings, becuase for him they would serve no purpose. The primary purpose of Sith teachings are to allow a Sith follower to unlock the might of the dark side of the force. For a guy like Nihilus who had unlocked the power to end life on a planetary level, the Sith teachings were no longer relevant.

 

It's not just a matter of abandoning the Sith teachings once you've reached a certain power level, it's a matter of whether they are relevant to what you plan to do. For Nihilus, there was nothing more to learn from the Sith, once he attained the power to draw force energy from all living things.

[Nero]

I still think that if you put handmaiden in that dress you get from dancing for the hutt she becomes the most powerful force user known to anyones knowledge.

[Nero]

besides she already has the braids in her hair, close to her forhead she would make the perfect padawan, since you have to have them to be one, she ready to go.

[Guest The Architect]

I didn't put the Exile on my list primarily because it isn't a given that he becomes Sith and even so, he did not get his title through the Sith but merely through his knowledge of the dark side and Sith arts. The Exile can be a Jedi just as much as he can be a Sith and even so Kreia mentions that he is not trully Sith in the DS ending. Nihilus on the other hand is Sith and only Sith. He identifies himself and is identified as a Sith Lord within the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But the point is, the Exile can be DS and he/she can be a Sith Lord. And the thing is, if the Exile is DS and bears that title of 'Sith Lord' and does not discard that title or turn away from the dark-side, then he/she is a Sith Lord, right? According to you, it's the title that's important.

 

It doesn't matter how DS Exile attains that title, because nothing disqualifies him/her of bearing that title of 'Sith Lord' if he/she doesn't discard it or turn away from the dark-side. DS Exile earns that Sith title from Kreia, who was a Sith Lord.

 

That's your logic, right? Because DS Exile bears that 'Sith' title that he/she has earned (from Kreia). Why can't you earn a title from a former Sith for? Why doesn't it count? The Exile can't just say "Hey, I'm a Sith Lord, because I bear that title."

 

DS Exile did earn his/her Sith title. Nihilus did too, but for some odd reason, even though DS Exile may not turn from the dark-side or discard his/her Sith title, he/she isn't truly a Sith, but Nihilus is? There's more to it than just bearing a mere title of 'Sith'.

 

Besides, Nihilus does not identify himself as a Sith Lord in KotOR II. Why would someone who cares nothing for the Sith teachings identify themselves as a Sith Lord for? Nihilus does not have the mentality that you seem to think he has.

 

Secondly if Malak or any Sith became charitable and compassionate it doesn't disqualify them from being Sith. What would disqualify them is if they turned away from the dark side. A Sith Lord is essentialy a dark side practicioner, if he no longer follows the dark side then he isn't a Sith. Compassion and charity have nothing to do with it. Sith are human and can love and care for other people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No. The Sith are against love and compassion. The Sith is a belief. If Malak or any Sith was compassionate or charitable, then they would be going against their teachings, so they're not truly a Sith.

 

It's not the title that's important, it's the teachings. If someone beared the title of 'Christian' but they killed, raped, stole and so on, and basically went against the whole teachings of Christianity, then they're not truly a Christian are they?

 

A Sith Lord isn't just a dark-side practicioner, that's the Dark Jedi. A Sith is not only a dark side practicioner, but also someone who believes in and follows the Sith teachings.

 

A Sith is defined through their teachings. Titles such as Darth is all to do with ranking amongst the Sith and that yada yada. It's not the title that's important, it's your actions.

 

Lastly, I nerver said that a Sith has to abandon the Sith teachings once he has attained the power he has sought after. I said there would be no need for a Sith Lord like Nihilus to follow the Sith teachings, becuase for him they would serve no purpose. The primary purpose of Sith teachings are to allow a Sith follower to unlock the might of the dark side of the force. For a guy like Nihilus who had unlocked the power to end life on a planetary level, the Sith teachings were no longer relevant.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did I say you said that a Sith has to abandon the Sith teachings once he or she has attained the power they sought after? Umm...no, so what's your point? Besides, Nihilus didn't give up the Sith teachings because 'he no longer had a need for them'.

 

What you have to understand is that he doesn't have that mentality. He is already dead. He's basically a retard. How can a void in the Force, someone with no connection to the Force, someone who's connection to the Force has been severed be anything but inhuman?

 

He gave up the Sith teachings, because he doesn't have a normal mentality, precisely because of his inhuman status. He gave them up because nothing means anything to him. Like I've said, the only mentality he has is this: the galaxy is a big dinner plate, and I'm here to eat it.

 

Titles, teachings and so on, have no meaning to him, because he no longer understands them, because he no longer perceives the galaxy and life normally anymore. He's different from living characters in the SW universe.

 

It's not like he went "Oh yeah. I'm so powerful now that I no longer need the Sith teachings. I'm going to go consume all life in the galaxy now, because that's what I want to do." It doesn't work that way.

 

It's not just a matter of abandoning the Sith teachings once you've reached a certain power level, it's a matter of whether they are relevant to what you plan to do. For Nihilus, there was nothing more to learn from the Sith, once he attained the power to draw force energy from all living things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nihilus didn't plan on consuming all life in the galaxy. His void in the Force and inhuman status makes him consume all life. Remember, he is the slave. He can't control his power.

 

Any Jedi/Sith that goes near Nihilus (apart from Visas and the Exile) die either instantly or are slowly devoured by him. Nihilus is pretty much a retard. Understand that. He's not in control of his actions, both physically and mentally.

 

He is already dead. It was just a question of how many he brings down with him before he falls. He was doomed as soon as he became a void in the Force. He was no longer a Sith Lord in KotOR II. He. Was. Nothing. Hence the term 'Nihilus'.

Edited November 17, 2006 by The Architect

[Darth Blivion]

Still arguing in circles, eh Architect? It's like you're reciting to us Kotor 2 info. We've played the game no need for reciting.

 

The point (with the Exile) is that he can be lightside or neutral as well as being DS, so saying he is a Sith Lord is not appropriate for me in this case. Nihilus however is Darth Nihilus and only Darth Nihilus. The Exile is not definitively identified as a Sith Lord, while Nihilus is.

[JediMasterAltena]

I'm going to end this dicussion and say that in terms of share level diffrence, The Exile would grind reven into tiny pieces and blast him into oblvion. a lvl 20 is no match for alvl 50 Sith lord. Also novells are not cannon they are not much better then a fanfic, the view of the author is not based in fact but rather the writting of a deillusional mind.

[Xard]

[Guest The Architect]

Still arguing in circles, eh Architect? It's like you're reciting to us Kotor 2 info. We've played the game no need for reciting.

 

The point (with the Exile) is that he can be lightside or neutral as well as being DS, so saying he is a Sith Lord is not appropriate for me in this case. Nihilus however is Darth Nihilus and only Darth Nihilus. The Exile is not definitively identified as a Sith Lord, while Nihilus is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Whatever Blivion. The only reason why I'm repeating my self is because you seem to not understand what I'm getting at. You're the one who won't even respond to my quotes now. Why is that? You know I'm right, is that it? I challenged your arguments in my last post.

 

Besides, did I say that the Exile was a Sith Lord? I said that the Exile can be a Sith Lord. There's a difference there you know. Well, you can think whatever you like about Nihilus. I don't care now. I shouldn't have wasted my time with this bloody debate.

 

You should also stop accusing me of saying stuff I never said. I challenge you to quote me for ever saying that the Exile is a Sith Lord. I said that the Exile can be a Sith Lord. Fool.

Edited November 18, 2006 by The Architect

[Purgatorio]

Play nice. ^_^

Umm... the egg is a potential chicken.

It's only moving because you keep kicking it.

[Darth Blivion]

Whatever Blivion. The only reason why I'm repeating my self is because you seem to not understand what I'm getting at. You're the one who won't even respond to my quotes now. Why is that? You know I'm right, is that it? I challenged your arguments in my last post.

 

Besides, did I say that the Exile was a Sith Lord? I said that the Exile can be a Sith Lord. There's a difference there you know. Well, you can think whatever you like about Nihilus. I don't care now. I shouldn't have wasted my time with this bloody debate.

 

You should also stop accusing me of saying stuff I never said. I challenge you to quote me for ever saying that the Exile is a Sith Lord. I said that the Exile can be a Sith Lord. Fool.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah! Play nice. ) It was your silly argument in the first place, you should know how to defend that argument beyond: "he was not a Sith Lord because he didn't care about Sith teachings" arguments. So what?! He was still a damned Sith Lord and he still used the Sith arts.

[DeathScepter]

the Sith Teachings are more important than the Sith Arts.

 

 

For the Sith arts are just a part of the Sith Teachings.

[Guest The Architect]

Okay okay, I'll play nice Blivion. But don't call my argument silly thanks <_< If it was that silly, no one would agree with me, right?

 

But you see, there's more to my argument as to why I don't think Nihilus is a Sith Lord in KotOR II. It's not just because he doesn't care about the teachings of the Sith, but it's also because he's an inhuman, retarded like void in the Force who views all life in the galaxy as just one big food platter.

 

To me, he was no longer a Sith Lord in KotOR II because of these things, even though he never discarded that 'Darth' title. There should be more to it than mere titles damn it! The ways of the Sith are odd. But, I know I'm probably wrong, since the game is called 'The Sith Lords', with Nihilus on the cover.

 

Oh well, I'll call it quits with this thread now. I've already wasted far too much time with it.

Edited November 19, 2006 by The Architect