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We only talk about Fallout


Fenghuang

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Okay, I know you lot all love Fallout so very much and can see nothing at all wrong with it, but I'd like to make my case for the combat system being utterly convoluted and stupid.

 

You're micromanaging the combat, cool. My personal preference is closer to the Real Time w/ Pause found in pretty much every other recent CRPG, but you know, micromanaging can be fun too.

 

Oh, wait, I've got several turns just to move close enough to my opponent I can strike them, and even if I'm using a ranged weapon it's not really worth it because my accuracy is so off at this distance?

 

Well alright I guess.

 

Oh wait, every turn takes an exponentially longer amount of time to cycle, even if they're ****ing rats?!!

 

Well, I'm getting a litte miffed here, so I'll just switch out of combat mode and then switch it back on when I'm closer.

 

Oh wait, I can't do that because there's enemies in sight.

 

Well shoot.

 

 

I mean, my experience may have been marred because I never chose to hit the enemies anywhere other than their crotch, but I should have been able to hit them in their crotch with less hassle.

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Okay, I know you lot all love Fallout so very much and can see nothing at all wrong with it, but I'd like to make my case for the combat system being utterly convoluted and stupid. 

 

You're micromanaging the combat, cool.  My personal preference is closer to the Real Time w/ Pause found in pretty much every other recent CRPG, but you know, micromanaging can be fun too. 

 

Oh, wait, I've got several turns just to move close enough to my opponent I can strike them, and even if I'm using a ranged weapon it's not really worth it because my accuracy is so off at this distance? 

 

Well alright I guess. 

 

Oh wait, every turn takes an exponentially longer amount of time to cycle, even if they're ****ing rats?!!

 

Well, I'm getting a litte miffed here, so I'll just switch out of combat mode and then switch it back on when I'm closer.

 

Oh wait, I can't do that because there's enemies in sight. 

 

Well shoot. 

 

 

I mean, my experience may have been marred because I never chose to hit the enemies anywhere other than their crotch, but I should have been able to hit them in their crotch with less hassle.

 

Yeah, but critical hits with the sniper rifle totally rule.

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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Saying you dont like action points etc. in Fallout is like saying Quake would be so much better if you didnt have to shoot things. You're obviously playing the wrong game for you.

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There are tons of way to improve TB. Fallout had its moments but it's hardly a shining example of the best TB has to offer.

 

I kinda disliked the combat in Fallout too. I remember there was a shootup in town and damn, I had my turn and waited ****ing MINUTES while the whole ****ing town took their turn one by one. Whether it was the animals or old people shuffling (in fast forward mode) out of the way onto the sidewalk. I even had to wait while dudes outside the screen view made their move. Basically the whole town had a go. And yes, I sped up the animation but it was still massive fail.

Spreading beauty with my katana.

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Turnbased combat is something you learned to enjoy if you were playign computer games years ago. Its like playign chess and moving pieces. Waiting for your turn is not bad; its just part of the game. One of the rules. You either like it or you don't. Arguing about it is silly. If you don't like it; don't play it.

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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No, no it's not. Waiting for your turn is cool, but there's a difference between waiting for your turn and OH MY GOD THE TURNS ARE TAKING SO LONG I MIGHT AS WELL GO DIG MY EYES OUT WITH A SPORK, OR MAYBE HAVE A SANDWICH, MMM, SANDWICH!!!"

 

They could've included an option to speed it up (fast forward, not sure how Atreides did it), they could've had everyone go at once, they could've had an option to exit the hex grid mode so you could close into attacking distance, they could've just included no animations and had it really be like chess.

 

The turn based combat in Fallout sucked. Period.

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Turnbased combat is something you learned to enjoy if you were playign computer games years ago.  Its like playign chess and moving pieces.  Waiting for your turn is not bad; its just part of the game.  One of the rules.  You either like it or you don't.  Arguing about it is silly.  If you don't like it; don't play it.

This is just dumb. How on earth is minutes of waiting "part of the game"? It is a flaw of the game, that I am sure the developers would have chosen to remove if they'd had the technological means to do it. Geez, talk about putting a game on a pedestal and not even seeing the blatant flaws for what they are. You need to get your head out of the butt of nostalgia.

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Turnbased combat is something you learned to enjoy if you were playign computer games years ago.  Its like playign chess and moving pieces.  Waiting for your turn is not bad; its just part of the game.  One of the rules.  You either like it or you don't.  Arguing about it is silly.  If you don't like it; don't play it.

I don't think that'd be very convincing when companies are trying to find funding for their projects.

Spreading beauty with my katana.

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Turn-based combat is on its way out, except for the odd tactical game here and there. Personally, I prefer turn-based combat because I have a comfortable background in PnP gaming, and while I've never tried LARPing, I imagine it's more difficult than plotting everything out.

 

Besides, for RPGs it's easier in general. Has anyone noticed what a cluster**** team combat is in Oblivion? You hit your companions as much as you hit your enemies. Perhaps more streamlined continuous-turn-based systems, ala KOTOR, are better suited for the future, unless we plan on omitting CNPCs altogether.

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I love love LOVE the tb combat of games like Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm and the Front Mission series. The tb combat of Fallout, however, poo.

 

 

Certainly all combat systems are different. I thought Dungeon Siege was pretty boring myself. To eahc their own, I suppose.

 

I don't understand this concept of "waiting as a flaw" or whatever some of you seem to be saying. In a game of turns, you wait your turn. Its not a flaw; its the rule. Or a rule anyway. If you don't like the rules of the game, it doesn't mean the game is flawed.

Notice how I can belittle your beliefs without calling you names. It's a useful skill to have particularly where you aren't allowed to call people names. It's a mistake to get too drawn in/worked up. I mean it's not life or death, it's just two guys posting their thoughts on a message board. If it were personal or face to face all the usual restraints would be in place, and we would never have reached this place in the first place. Try to remember that.
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I thought Dungeon Siege was pretty boring myself.  To eahc their own, I suppose.

 

No, DS was boring. Just don't tell Di... :ph34r: I didn't mind DS2, though.

 

I don't understand this concept of "waiting as a flaw" or whatever some of you seem to be saying.  In a game of turns, you wait your turn.  Its not a flaw; its the rule.  Or a rule anyway.  If you don't like the rules of the game, it doesn't mean the game is flawed.

 

I don't understand it either. I can understand people being impatient. I'm not suprised by the attitude though, when describing anything, games, movies, music etc, people often claim something is crap when what they really mean is they don't like it for some reason.

Edited by Hell Kitty
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Frankly, I don't think IE or Aurora based games' pseudo-real-time systems are all that better. Characters' behaviors in modern games with graphical frontends look extremely silly in turn-based combat with such long turn-switch granularities. An ideal combat system that both looks and feels accurate, as well as accurately models the behavior of player-independent stats-dependent combat, should have infinitesimally small turn-switch granularities (or time-slices, if you will). Of course, combat action lengths would need to be adjusted in terms of the number of time-slices needed to perform them.

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I like good turn based combat. 

 

But that's not what this thread is about. 

 

This thread isn't about me not playing Fallout, a game I love, either. 

 

This game is about how goshawful Fallout's combat was.

It had its flaws, yes (if you missed the eyes, did you hit the head instead) but I don't see how it butchered the game mechanics in the extreme way that, say, Arcanum did.

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We get it. You didn't like it. Fine. I happened to like it. If you don;t like it then don't play it. Simple, eh?

 

I mean, the game is almost a decade old and when you play a game you need to keep in mind the time in which it was made in. Yes, it might be a little too slow in today's standard but back in the day it was just fine.

Edited by 6 Foot Invisible Rabbit

Harvey

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The accuracy claim is solved later, with better guns. The reason accuracy is so low in these games is because Fallout didn't really have a cover / destroy cover mechanism: if it did then it would have been a LOT better.

 

So the only real flaw is having to wait 60 years for everyone to move - which Arcanum solved with its "Fast" turn-based mode. A speed slider would have been even better. I think everyone (except super-fanboy level 16) knows that it's a big flaw in the system - but that's about it.

 

Oh, and waiting for 3 minutes so rats finish running away from you was NOT good back in the day, either.

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Wait, so other people are allowed to give their opinions about aspecs of other games, but when Jim here does it about a game most of you are gay for it's out of line?

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You think it's funny because you aren't an oldschool gamer.

 

Us oldschool gamers who've been playing games since the 80's know it isn't funny.

Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!
http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdanger

One billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there.

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I know you're trying to be witty and topical and all, but you bring up a valid point.

 

I mean, I haven't been playing quite since the eighties, but I've played games, a lot of games.

 

My first system was an Apple //e for reference.

 

I was forced to put up with crap like this for years before anybody figured out how to make decent turn based combat in a videogame.

 

Fallout is awesome and all, and I know you guys love it, but it's combat almost made me stop playing it.

 

Almost.

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