Unkillable enemies discussion

[Hassat Hunter]

It relives though... good thing too

 

Puzzles in games (every one) are common; live with it!

[Slowtrain]

Puzzles in games (every one) are common; live with it!

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When I encounter a puzzle in a game my first instinct is to chop its head off with my Katana.

 

My therapist is working with me on that though.

[alanschu]

The ideal solution, of course, is to provide options. Allowing for environmental puzzles all while making the enemies defeatable - though at a challenge level where it wouldn't make a difference to Hades whether they were invincible or not.

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Since Half-Life was brought up as being a culprit that has the "invincible" enemies, they frequently did just that.

 

The "big blue" bad guys that frequented the areas were typically killed by traps and whatnot. But it was still possible to kill them with your normal weapons. It just took a long time.

[Slowtrain]

Maybe that's why the adventure genre died out 

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Hey, don't blame me for that. I can only buy so many games a year.

[Slowtrain]

Since Half-Life was brought up as being a culprit that has the "invincible" enemies, they frequently did just that.

 

The "big blue" bad guys that frequented the areas were typically killed by traps and whatnot.  But it was still possible to kill them with your normal weapons.  It just took a long time.

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Actually I hadn't even thought of them. The boss I was particualrly referncing was the final boss in the HL:Oppsing Force expansion.

 

The rocket-silo weedmonster in HL was actually a well-done puzzly kind of thing. It was well-explained and made sense. I even managed to figure it out on my own! True story!

[Dark_Raven]

Bloodlines rulz.

[Hassat Hunter]

When I encounter a puzzle in a game my first instinct is to chop its head off with my Katana.

 

My therapist is working with me on that though. 

 

Guybrush mode on; "That doesn't seem to work"

 

The "big blue" bad guys that frequented the areas were typically killed by traps and whatnot.  But it was still possible to kill them with your normal weapons.  It just took a long time.

 

And loads of ammo; which you usually did not have

[Slowtrain]

Bloodlines rulz.

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Well its hard to argue with with a 67 page thread. True enough

[alanschu]

Puzzles in games (every one) are common; live with it!

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When I encounter a puzzle in a game my first instinct is to chop its head off with my Katana.

 

My therapist is working with me on that though.

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Depends on what you call a "puzzle" though. There are many times (and adventure games are the absolute worst for it) when puzzles make little to no sense. Resident Evil games were also horrible for it. I mean, I need to find a secret gem, that is inside a painting, to open up a door, all inside a police station?

 

I myself would probably call the water pump quest, well, a quest. Given proper context though, puzzles can be interesting. Some minor puzzles in Half-Life 2 involved using physics (pick up the cinderblocks and put them on the edge of a board, so that it won't fall down when you run along it). There were also situations where you were outgunned by some guys on a bridge, but if you shot out the barrel at the bottom of the middle support beam, the bridge collapsed and the combine troops were all killed. I also didn't mind one of the actual invincible creatures in Half-Life, which was the three armed tentacle creature that could detect your sound. Setting the rocket ready to fire (which had other puzzles I didn't mind, such as manipulating the crates to not step on the electrified water) to kill it was pretty cool.

 

The werewolf in Bloodlines is fine as well. It's obvious you're ill equipped to deal with the werewolf through dealing direct damage, so you take cover in the observatory (which Nines also suggested to you). You could play cat and mouse in the observatory, or, with some quick thinking, find a way to trap or kill it using the environment. The way I stumbled upon killing the werewolf was by accident (and not even on my first playthrough, where I just avoided it). I opened the observatory doors as an alternative exit for me to lose the werewolf with. And when I went running back in, I saw him peering through the crack, so I quickly tried closing it. As a result, it got crushed. Same goes with using the spotlights to disable the sheriff (and those weren't even necessary). Certainly more interesting than the fight against the Kuei-Jin, which was a "real combat situation" against a demon that just required me to whip out the killmatic and hold down the trigger until she died.

[alanschu]

Since Half-Life was brought up as being a culprit that has the "invincible" enemies, they frequently did just that.

 

The "big blue" bad guys that frequented the areas were typically killed by traps and whatnot.  But it was still possible to kill them with your normal weapons.  It just took a long time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Actually I hadn't even thought of them. The boss I was particualrly referncing was the final boss in the HL:Oppsing Force expansion.

 

The rocket-silo weedmonster in HL was actually a well-done puzzly kind of thing. It was well-explained and made sense. I even managed to figure it out on my own! True story!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While I remember enjoying Opposing Force, I don't remember much about it. I do remember finding the final boss to be a bit too "NES" like. The only thing missing was the "weak spots" to be flashing.

 

Come to think of it though, both Half-Life and Opposing Forces did have consequences in it as well. There were quite a few situations where if you didn't keep a scientist/barney/marine with arc welder alive, the screen would fade to black giving an explanation why Gordon failed. Given the large amounts of autosaves the game did though, it never really set you back too much (a good thing).

[Slowtrain]

[The werewolf in Bloodlines is fine as well.  It's obvious you're ill equipped to deal with the werewolf through dealing direct damage, so you take cover in the observatory (which Nines also suggested to you).  You could play cat and mouse in the observatory, or, with some quick thinking, find a way to trap or kill it using the environment.  The way I stumbled upon killing the werewolf was by accident (and not even on my first playthrough, where I just avoided it).  I opened the observatory doors as an alternative exit for me to lose the werewolf with.  And when I went running back in, I saw him peering through the crack, so I quickly tried closing it.  As a result, it got crushed.  Same goes with using the spotlights to disable the sheriff (and those weren't even necessary).  Certainly more interesting than the fight against the Kuei-Jin, which was a "real combat situation" against a demon that just required me to whip out the killmatic and hold down the trigger until she died.

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As I mentioned previously, I don't find the werewolf to be the worst offender of goofy puzzly stuff I've ever encountered, I was just disappointed that the devs would choose to make the werewolf unkillable. I was itching for an epic battle! But then again Iwas playing a Brujah and though not a moron in any sense, she was always looking for the most direct path through an obstacle. The operative word there being THROUGH, of course. Running for 5 minutes, celerity or not, did not sit well with her.

[Llyranor]

The irony is in how Hades likens it to real combat.

 

If a werewolf lunged at me, I sure as heck wouldn't scan my surroundings for something that would give me an advantage. I'd benchpress it.

 

That, of course, still doesn't make it good design. The idea was noble enough, but the implementation was fairly poor. Though, it's not as if the whole of Bloodlines was full of awesome combat gameplay design.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Llyranor

[Slowtrain]

Though, it's not as if the whole of Bloodlines was full of awesome combat gameplay design.

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True, but it was darn fun to wind up your potence and celerity to the max and punch the crap out of enemies while they were spinning about in mid-air!

[Hassat Hunter]

I actually cannot believe I forgot this one.

 

BG2... Temple Sewers... Temple of the Forgotten God.

 

There was a monster there that *WAS* Invernable and there was 1(!) way to defeat it.

 

" (please attempt to beat it down please... )

[Judge Hades]

The irony is in how Hades likens it to real combat.

 

You must have failed reading comprehension in school.

[Llyranor]

So have all devs.

[Judge Hades]

Again, you totally misinterpret what I am talking about. Its above your head, and between your knees.

[Llyranor]

You're right. This confrontation is a combat situation.

[Judge Hades]

[alanschu]

The irony is in how Hades likens it to real combat.

 

You must have failed reading comprehension in school.

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Then please, spell it out in detail, since we couldn't comprehend it.

 

That should just tell you that very few game developers have actually been in real combat situations.

 

In direct response to my statement:

 

I've played many games where killing a creature that attacks me involves a puzzle.

 

Heck, even a game like Quake required it for the end guy of the first act.

 

 

So what exactly did you mean by real combat situations? And furthermore, how would they apply when fighting fantasy creatures?

Edited September 8, 2006 by alanschu

[Dark_Raven]

Your quotes are broken Alan.

 

 

Real life combat? Hell I would run like crazy away from a werewolf, vampires, etc.

[Judge Hades]

Its not the specific opponent that I am talking about. It is the situation itself in which you know your life is in danger. That you have a damn good chance of getting killed. In that sort of harried situation, regardless of the opponent, most people are not going to be thinking straight and be able to solve puzzles.

[Llyranor]

So, every game should be like Diablo. Gotcha.

[alanschu]

Your quotes are broken Alan.

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I know. I see my post after it gets posted to the board. You just saw it before I could submit the change.

[Judge Hades]

So, every game should be like Diablo. Gotcha.

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Like I said, Llyr. Its above your head and in between your knees.

Edited September 8, 2006 by Judge Hades