Tempers have cooled I think. NWN 2 DM Client

[LoneWolf16]

The game is complete if the devs say it is.

 

1. OE said Kotor2 was complete "

 

They won't charge for it.

 

2. They might not even release it. "

 

And I'm not sure I get the point of that second part. You're saying, again, that you're getting the DM client for free, when it should be part of the game, where you'd be paying for it?

 

3. Haha, you make it sound like the DM inside the package would cost the consumer more cash, while the DL would cost them nothing. But ofcourse it is both free... one just screw the costumer by forcing them a large DL that is now just an empty space on the disk that could be filled and thus save them that inconvenience of buying an (here the main issue comes) INCOMPLETE GAME and then completing it later by (not even certain to come) fixes...

 

4. Let's make another comparisson. With UT2K4. What if you get that game then see major seller point gamemode ONSLAUGHT was not included and had to be DL-ed like say, 20 days after release. How would you feel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. It is complete. There's a beginning and an ending, albeit a crappy one.

 

2. They will.

 

3. The game is complete from a single player's perspective, as well as from most of a multiplayer's. I'd rather get the game a month earlier than wait for content I'm not going to touch...that's the same way a lot of people are thinking right now, the majority in fact. You'll get your client, and you'll get it in the same amount of time it'd take were the main game released with it some time down the road. How big of a download do you think it is? What are you basing your guess on? Why would somebody with dial-up be playing games online and, more importantly, why would they need a DM client? Who wants a DM with a 500 ping?

 

4. Bad example...again. You seem to be giving the DM client more weight than it actually has. It is not an integral feature. It is not a major selling point. It has no use for people outside of a "small" minority. I'm not saying "screw the people who want it" I'm merely pointing out the audacity of the claim.

[Volourn]

"It is not a major selling point."

 

Yes it is. It's one of the most hyped features of the NWN franchise. It's the thing that makes NWN different to other games. People seem to think that somehow the DMC costs Obsidian sales... yet the success of NWN itself disproves this theory.. unless youa re saying that NWN sold more than BG2 on the basis that it's SP OC wa stronger than BG2?

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

 

btw, I think people give more weight to gnomes and halflinsg. A very, very, very small minority use them. Heck, very people play the OC more than once and hardly of the masses play evil. Let's cut that stuff 'cause as you say it isn't a 'major selling point'.

 

Take that.

[LoneWolf16]

"It is not a major selling point."

 

Yes it is. It's one of the most hyped features of the NWN franchise.  It's the thing that makes NWN different to other games.  People seem to think that somehow the DMC costs  Obsidian sales... yet the success of NWN itself disproves this theory.. unless youa re saying that NWN sold more than BG2 on the basis that it's SP OC wa stronger than BG2?

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

 

btw, I think people give more weight to gnomes and halflinsg.  A very, very, very small minority use them. Heck, very people play the OC more than once and hardly of the masses play evil. Let's cut that stuff 'cause as you say it isn't a 'major selling point'.

 

Take that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The majority of players don't use multiplayer functions. Therefore, the single player is the major draw for sales.

 

Take that.

 

And why do people insist on giving over the top, moronic examples to further their aims? It's, frankly, childish.

[Hassat Hunter]

1. It is complete. There's a beginning and an ending, albeit a crappy one.

 

Ofcourse Malachor V is complete... and how AWESUM that HK-Factory was... un-imaginable! Several storylines that got started never got finished too... and not because of the needed plothanger ending...

 

2. They will.

 

Wish I had your convidence

 

3. The game is complete from a single player's perspective, as well as from most of a multiplayer's. I'd rather get the game a month earlier than wait for content I'm not going to touch...that's the same way a lot of people are thinking right now, the majority in fact. You'll get your client, and you'll get it in the same amount of time it'd take were the main game released with it some time down the road. How big of a download do you think it is? What are you basing your guess on? Why would somebody with dial-up be playing games online and, more importantly, why would they need a DM client? Who wants a DM with a 500 ping?

 

Selfish...selfish... The chance that I will not use the DM Client is very high, yet I make this many fuss about it... Arguing for arguings sake? Nope. Arguing because I "need" the DM client? Nope. Arguing because I am too stupid to see reasoning? Nope. Arguining because I expect a FULL PACKAGE and equeal threatment of gamers (both the SP'ers as the DM'ers)? Yup.

Is it irreal to think that when a game ships it should be everything? Not really. It has been that way 100% of the times in the future. NWN2 is the first who lacks doing that; and hear the praise for it! I am quite fearsome too that if NWN2 sells very well before DMC it gives a sign to other devs to just chunck out incomplete games onto the market with a "promise to give the promised content later" (which is NOT good). Only for that I hope it will ship as a total and complete package.

And for the DL size... no idea... not the point either...

 

4. Bad example...again. You seem to be giving the DM client more weight than it actually has. It is not an integral feature. It is not a major selling point. It has no use for people outside of a "small" minority. I'm not saying "screw the people who want it" I'm merely pointing out the audacity of the claim.

 

Well...dum dum dum...it actually is. But Volourn already explained that above... (EDIT: Well, 2 posts above)

And what part of the UT2K4 sellers do you think uses Onslaught, eh? Could we call it a minority... hmm, perhaps we can... do you know?

Cutting stuff 'cause of "It's just the minority anyways" is NOT good nor is cutting cause the stuff was just for some weird reason I cannot seem to come up with incompatable at the very last moment...

Edited May 14, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Volourn]

So is the 'majority doesn't use x feature so it doesn't matter' exuse for defending poor project management. That's what I'm getting at.

 

The more you blindly defend cuts of things that only a 'minority use' the more you are okaying shoddy development.

 

Agaain, while a minority, it's still important... or else why would BIo continue to support it at all? And, if it's not important than why is Obsidian still working on it all? I mean why add soemthing that 'nobody' uses in a patch then, right? Such a waste of manpower... when they could just move on to the next neme. Once again, the object of your affection's only words and actions disproves your theory that the 'DMC doesn't matter'. The fact obsidian has gone all out with mas sposts on this issue gives more credence that the DMC (or lack of one) does matter. And, they know it.

 

Must be worth something.

 

 

Game over.

Edited May 14, 2006 by Volourn

[Hassat Hunter]

neither does the vol "minority" nonsense, but you keep responding to him.

 

but who is Gromnir to say anything, eh?  typically takes us 2 or 3 pages of BW before we simply give up trying.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The majority of players don't use multiplayer functions. Therefore, the single player is the major draw for sales.

 

Take that.

 

And why do people insist on giving over the top, moronic examples to further their aims? It's, frankly, childish.

 

Sorry Gromnir, but here is your REAL "minority" man... it is not me...

[Darque]

I don't see what the big deal is... you don't need the DM client to play the game right?

 

And if it's added later, what difference does it make?

[Volourn]

A lot.

 

P.S. You don't need gnomes, halflings, the evil way, multiple ways to complete quests, or wizards to play the game right so they should be postponed to a patch or just outright canceled as well.

[Darque]

Don't be a Wii

 

I mean it's not a functional part of the single player game... so it's not that big of a deal to have it out of the box.

 

And people shouldn't try multiplayer until they have a firm grasp of single player anyway

[Spider]

Darque, we've tried. The people who want to be upset will stay upset, logic has no effect in this case.

 

Volourn, I've already told you the analogy doesn't work. It was cute the first time in a "heh" sort of way, but now it's just getting repetetive.

[Volourn]

"Don't be a Wii"

 

LOL

 

Other than that meh.

 

Still, the 'don't be a wii' is funny! :D

 

 

"Volourn, I've already told you the analogy doesn't work. It was cute the first time in a "heh" sort of way, but now it's just getting repetetive."

 

So are the posts that state the 'DMC doesn't matter b/c only a minority use it' depsite Obsidian's words and actions quite clearly stating it does *matter*.

 

Until those types of posts stop, you'll have to deal with gnomes don't matter b/c few players use them!' analogies too!!!

Edited May 14, 2006 by Volourn

[Darque]

Truth be told, I haven't even been following this argument... I just saw the thread, read the first post and replied

 

Though it's pretty obvious Volourn is unhappy with this.

[Volourn]

"Though it's pretty obvious Volourn is unhappy with this."

 

hey, Hades is the one who is NOT gonna buy the game now! LOL :D

[Darque]

Hades ALWAYS says that though

[Hassat Hunter]

And people shouldn't try multiplayer until they have a firm grasp of single player anyway

 

Hmmm, OE-devs on E3 have stated NWN1 and NWN2 are MP-RPG's.

 

That's right Multiplayer Role Playing Games. Meant for Online Gameplay.

 

So I love all your guys "It's all about the SP being playable" but even the devs don't think that is the most important stuff. Hell, it is not the seller point! SCRAP IT!

 

Darque, we've tried. The people who want to be upset will stay upset, logic has no effect in this case.

 

Volourn, I've already told you the analogy doesn't work. It was cute the first time in a "heh" sort of way, but now it's just getting repetetive.

 

We hate your relentless optimism on this and the easyness at which you accept that OE screwed up as much as you guys hate our wish that games are shipped when done and work for all people right out of the box like they want.

 

Unless one group stops (or dies or whatever) discussion will continue...

Edited May 14, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Volourn]

"Hades ALWAYS says that though "

 

yes, yes he does. Which is why if I *ever* say it, you'll know I mean it.

 

I am really disappointed; but I haven't given up yet in getting a fun product even with all the corner cutting going on due to what seems to be poor project management.

Edited May 14, 2006 by Volourn

[Darque]

Let's be positive :D

[Volourn]

I'm trying; but Obsidian sure isn't making it easy!!!

[Spider]

We hate your relentless optimism on this and the easyness at which you accept that OE screwed up as much as you guys hate our wish that games are shipped when done and work for all people right out of the box like they want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who the hell says I'm being optimistic? I've voiced my concerns on the state of NWN 2 in several threads. The cutting of the DM Client is one reason for my concerns. However, I still don't think the specific issue of the DMC being delayed is a big deal. If it is release within a reasonable time, then all is fine and well.

 

It is symptomatic of a much larger issue and that is what concerns me more.

[alanschu]

It's funny, if we heard about all the things that get cut from games, you could argue that no game was shipped completed.

 

Though some people still insist that game developers update their fans, yet get upset when things get cut.

[Spider]

Until those types of posts stop, you'll have to deal with gnomes don't matter b/c few players use them!' analogies too!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The "few players" argument is kinda stupid in both directions, I'll give you that. The argument still doesn't quite hold up though.

[Hassat Hunter]

Damn the fact we have 3 threads talking about the exactly same thing...

 

It's funny, if we heard about all the things that get cut from games, you could argue that no game was shipped completed.

 

Though some people still insist that game developers update their fans, yet get upset when things get cut.

 

It's not the fact that doesn't make sense, it's the analogy. If we're talking about cutting completely it works, but if we're talking about cutting at release and patching it in at a later date, then it falls apart at the seems

 

There is even a worse part than these 2. The cutting of things without re-adding where the costumer can notice the cutting. So in order of being worse (lease worse on top):

1. Just cutting it. If that happens without a dev. EVER noticing it would be ingame it causes no damage to anyone. Afterall we didn't know about it; so how could we complain?

2. Cut it and then offer it later. Face it; Folks don't like to get incomplete games. Even if they get the content later they rather have it right away. And who blames them? The longer it takes the more annoyed costumers get too and that isn't good for buisness...

3. Cut it and leave it noticable ingame (patch version). Worst a dev can have is actual cutting being visible ingame. Everybody cuts content out of there game but when you hide it really bad people expect to actually get it. If there are loads of hints to Factory X people expect to get there and finish that storyline. Patching it up helps to heal the wounds a bit but severe damage is already caused.

4. Cut it and leave it noticable ingame (non-patched version). Well, you cannot get any worser than this. Costumers notice missing stuff and not getting what they deem they deserved won't make for happy costumers. See the Kotor2 forums in May for example. Lockdown of the entire forums announcement and stuff remember?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited May 15, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Spider]

Actually, we stopped talking about it in the other thread. And basically stopped here as well.

Edited May 15, 2006 by Spider

[LoneWolf16]

Just to repeat myself...again...

 

One last time.

 

The current release plan does not make those who want the DM client wait any longer than they would if the game were released with it. How is there any way to argue against that? It's just...fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My main point...still...stands...

 

Think about it for two seconds...TWO...and if the pointlessness of arguing that somebody is getting screwed hasn't hit you yet, then please, kill yourself.

 

Sorry Gromnir, but here is your REAL "minority" man... it is not me...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dude, that's it. I'm so cancelling our date. B...b...b...bwoke my wittle heart. :'(

 

Ahem. All I did was respond to Volo's incorrect assumption that it was the multiplayer that sold the game. Most don't even use the multiplayer functionality, so my statement was true. "

Edited May 15, 2006 by LoneWolf16

[Volourn]

"All I did was respond to Volo's incorrect assumption that it was the multiplayer that sold the game."

 

This has *never* been my point.