Cantousent Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 I'm not railing about game length. I'm not picking a fight over anything. If I were, it would be apparent to one and all. What I'm saying is that the mystery regarding this alleged comment is easy enough to dispel. Have Feargus come right out and say either "Yes, I made the comment" or "No, I didn't." I'm not making waves because the campaign might be short. Actually, I'm not making waves at all at this point simply because I think we will have more clarity. However, Feargus making a heartfelt apology to the strident voices of the DM client while giving us the bums rush simply highlights the fact that Obsidian clearly takes us single player folks for granted. Even worse, folks here complain at Gromnir for doing something that makes perfect sense to me. He's agitating for more information. How the hell can that be bad? Sure, he's got a confrontational style, but he's trying to find out more before he buys the game. If he succeeds, even in some small degree, then the people who pillory him now will benefit from his efforts later. As for the threads dying? Give me a break. It's hard for a thread to live past closing, which is what both threads here suffered. If we started a new thread and agitated, it would go for another 20+ pages. I know how to generate heat. You, Vol, would help me do so. Look, I'm not saying that we should storm the citadel. I'm saying we shouldn't just write off Gromnir's position. If you boil it down to the essentials, it's not about the length of the game or the DMC. It's about the fact that we can't get a straight answer on some of these issues. We can't even get Feargus, or some employee, to confirm or deny comments attributed to the CEO. While It's no longer the hot button issue for me that it once was, the whole debacle surrounding the alleged comment only serves to highlight the way things are going down for this title. Four months out and they're pulling the DMC? It's not my make or break issue, but what happens when they say they're cutting down on the side quests? We should demand, and receive, answers for a product we intend to buy. It's that simple. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends!
Llyranor Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 Hey, if the toolset didn't ship with the game, I wouldn't buy it until it got patched in. It's called common sense. Would I not whine about it, though? Well, I whined when the XBOX got KOTOR2 first I could have bought the XBOX version, though!!! (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)
Gromnir Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 "Basically, I give the benefit of the doubt. It doesn't make me a fool." so you willfully ignore reality, but ain't a fool? okie dokie. personally, when it comes to Faith, we save such things for our God, and fergie has not shown that he deserves similar consideration. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So, I'm not paranoid and haven't come around to your way of blatantly negative thinking? Of course, I must be a fool. It's all so clear to me now...and this "reality" you speak of...it's news to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ah, so demand of an answer, in the absence of one, makes us paranoid now? how quaint. the reality is that there has been numerous lengthy threads 'bout fergie's 20 hour estimate. the reality is that fin suggested that asking fergie in the 10 questions thread 'bout the 20 hour estimate would be a good idea. the reality is that fergie responded very quickly to the dm client issue, when it were somebody else who screwed up release of such info. the reality is that anybody at obsidian could answer the 20 hour Q in less than 5 minutes... but none has. we could go on with more reality, but you got Faith. is no way for Gromnir to combat that. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Llyranor Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 Why would you demand answers in a thread Feargus isn't likely going to read, though? You could easily shake things up and make a big issue (well, bigger than here, anyway) out of it at the NWN2forums. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)
Volourn Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) "You, Vol, would help me do so." "But you gotta have faith..doo doo, doo doo." Old man! I love that song or at least that part of it! :D "Why would you demand answers in a thread Feargus isn't likely going to read, though? You could easily shake things up and make a big issue (well, bigger than here, anyway) out of it at the NWN2forums." Not tonight. Length of OC threads would likely drown in the sea of DM Client threads over there. LOL Edited May 12, 2006 by Volourn DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
LoneWolf16 Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) ah, so demand of an answer, in the absence of one, makes us paranoid now? how quaint. the reality is that there has been numerous lengthy threads 'bout fergie's 20 hour estimate. the reality is that fin suggested that asking fergie in the 10 questions thread 'bout the 20 hour estimate would be a good idea. the reality is that fergie responded very quickly to the dm client issue, when it were somebody else who screwed up release of such info. the reality is that anybody at obsidian could answer the 20 hour Q in less than 5 minutes... but none has. we could go on with more reality, but you got Faith. is no way for Gromnir to combat that. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nope. That's curiousity. Automatically attributing the lack of an answer to something insidious on the part of Feargus is paranoia. " And a I hate to pull a Volo, but since when are they obligated to tell us anything? Just because we demand answers doesn't mean we will, or should get them. Don't get me wrong, I'd like some too along this line, but I recognize that any information at all is something to be thankful for. Of course he pounced on the DM issue. It was apparently more widely spread than the german article and, let's face it, viewed a lot more harshly by the public, demanded an explanation as quickly as possible to soothe the consumers. Edited May 12, 2006 by LoneWolf16 I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
Cantousent Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 Hey, if the toolset didn't ship with the game, I wouldn't buy it until it got patched in. It's called common sense. Would I not whine about it, though? Well, I whined when the XBOX got KOTOR2 first I could have bought the XBOX version, though!!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Here's where I disagree, Llyr. It's the threat of reduced sales that has an effect on current development or even responses from the developer. If a sufficient number of folks start to voice concern on an issue, there will be an answer. I don't advocate making a huge fuss. What this issue has made clear to me is that Feargus doesn't want to answer the comment. He probably believes that any answer he gives will only make things worse. He's probably right. I'm willing to give Feargus a break. I'm not willing to attack Gromnir because he disagrees. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends!
Llyranor Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 Why are quoting that? The point remains. The Obs forums are irrelevant. NWN2forums are where you have the most chance of getting your voice heard. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)
Gromnir Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) Why would you demand answers in a thread Feargus isn't likely going to read, though? You could easily shake things up and make a big issue (well, bigger than here, anyway) out of it at the NWN2forums. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> don't worry yourself on that account. is not like Gromnir is done with this issue... not by a long shot. the thing is, we knows the bio boards. the nwn2 bio boards is very heavily weighted towards the modders as 'posed to the sp fans who makes up the majority of potential nwn2 purchasers. so Gromnir is gonna let those folks stew 'bout dm client for a while Edited May 12, 2006 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Volourn Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) "If a sufficient number of folks start to voice concern on an issue, there will be an answer." Hmm.. This kinda proves the DM Client *is* more important than the German article/OC length is. He has yet to answer the OC length stuff personally yet he's already addressed the DM Client stuff. Go figure. edit: "then hit Edited May 12, 2006 by Volourn DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Llyranor Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 Oooh, a devious plan. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)
Gromnir Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) "Hmm.. This kinda proves the DM Client *is* more important than the German article/OC length is." could just as easily mean that as bad as the fallout were with the dm client answer, fergie thinks that the fallout from being honest about his 20 hour estimate would be even worse. is always cost v. benefit. you has proved little... other than that fergie has time and ability to anwer fan concerns if he wishes to... which were never in doubt. "edit: "then hit Edited May 12, 2006 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
LoneWolf16 Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) we is "automatically" attributing? thought we were compare and contrasting and looking at past and current similar situations to comes to a conclusion we don't necessarily like. heck, even fin seemed to think that the 20 hour q would be good fodder for the 10 q thread, but when the ultimate 10 q list is compiled we gets creampuff questions. bah. calling some folks naive is too kind. HA! Good Fun! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That could mean several things...the modsquad decided against it, Feargus figures it's already been taken care of by Mr. Sawyer, Feargus is, rightfully, scared to unnecessarily fan the flames, it doesn't fit well with PR, or it's so completely wrong that he thinks it's not worth even addressing...etc...etc... Usually, people in higher positions GET creampuff questions...even seen a presidential press conference? ...I'd also argue that being too kind to some folks who consider their opinion to be the be all and end all of rightness is a bit naive in and of itself...but I'm still doing it. Simple fact is that you don't know, and I don't know. Not good to go about making accusations, but I do applaud that you're pushing for the answers... Edited May 12, 2006 by LoneWolf16 I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
alanschu Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 I think, at best, we can conclude that the internet community is more concerned with the DM Client than the OC. It's tough to say when I'm pretty sure most people that will buy this game don't frequent internet message boards.
Volourn Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 True, which is why it's silly for us to argue what THEY want. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Gromnir Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 "That could mean several things...the modsquad decided against it, Feargus figures it's already been taken care of by Mr. Sawyer, Feargus is, rightfully, scared to unnecessarily fan the flames, it doesn't fit well with PR, or it's so completely wrong that he thinks it's not worth even addressing...etc...etc..." please note that only one of your potential rationales were that the modteam decided... you gots a short memory. go back and review thread. most of your possible reasons is stuff that plays into what Gromnir were suggesting: FERGIE is the guy who not wanna answer. you getting paranoid? HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
LoneWolf16 Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 Note the "etc". Those are just scenarios that have been presented so far. Feel free to come up with more of your own. On that note...off to bed. About 3 and a half hours until I need to wake up for 2 hours of detention and a full school day. Oh, and re-taking a test, taking an Algebra test, and writing a 2 page research paper. I'm not exactly looking forward to waking up. I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
Llyranor Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 You both lose the freaking internet because the question's not getting answered anyway. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it)
kirottu Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) Taking a gander on the NWN 2 forums at BIO Sawyer had this to say about the issue: Guys, there are plenty of issues over which I would gleefully blame the publisher. This is not one of them. We (Obsidian) defined the overall scope of the game and the fact that the DM client got pushed out is our responsibility. So there we have it. Its Obsidian's fault, squarely all their fault. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, for Sawyer for that. Edited May 12, 2006 by kirottu This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Gromnir Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 It's tough to say when I'm pretty sure most people that will buy this game don't frequent internet message boards. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> nope, they don't frequent the boards too often... but they does read previews in print and on net. is any wonder that in spite of josh pointing out that hours is too hard to guestimate at this point somebody at obsidian and/or atari is giving previewers estimates? ... the developers and publishers, as much as they seems to dislike the gaming press, uses 'em to sell their games... but you can use'em to. how often has you seen gamespot or gamespy or ign repeating a stoopid rumor you seen first on these or other boards? more than once we imagine. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
alanschu Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 (edited) nope, they don't frequent the boards too often... but they does read previews in print and on net. is any wonder that in spite of josh pointing out that hours is too hard to guestimate at this point somebody at obsidian and/or atari is giving previewers estimates? Err, I don't disagree. Though to be honest, I'd be surprised if a substantial amount of them even regularly frequented the Internet. In any case, I was just talking about conclusions that can be made from the message board commenting like crazy about the DM Client. Edited May 12, 2006 by alanschu
Xard Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 Oh, it doesn't mean much to me, but I understand that some people are going to be seriously pissed about this. I hope that they'll add Client soon after release How can it be a no ob build. It has PROVEN effective. I dare you to show your builds and I will tear you apart in an arugment about how these builds will won them. - OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)
Judge Hades Posted May 12, 2006 Posted May 12, 2006 i created a monster. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You didn't create a monster. All you did was flip the switch to on.
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