BREAKING NEWS: EX-TROIKA CRPG IN MAKING

[alanschu]

I prefer getting a game from the local store than downloading it. I get the CD/s for it and the manuel, which these days is sorely lacking. Whatever happen to good manuels like the ones for Baldur's Gate and Fallout?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which is why I feel the "I like to get the manual" argument is losing steam.

 

As for what happened to the manuals, people are trying to find ways to cut corners to combat the quickly rising cost of development.

 

 

EDIT: Get Steam here

Edited May 9, 2006 by alanschu

[Musopticon?]

Once I get a credit card, sure.

[Tigranes]

Volourn: fair enough. And that's the reason I can't criticise you, merely disagree - DD needs customers' cash to grow, but right now many games not offered via retail are sub-par, and here we go in a self-perpetuating cycle where neither party is really to blame.

[Hassat Hunter]

In case anyone missed McCarthy's description of what you're paying for at the retail level, a good $6-12 of what you're buying isn't the game.  You're buying retailer profit and absobing cost of goods and distribution fees.

 

Then explain why most online downloads ALSO cost $50,-

 

If I have to choose 50,- for a digital copy (+$ downnloading, +$ for a disk) VS. 50,- in a shop (already on disk, with box, hopefully with manual and NOT pdf...) I will easily pick the shop-one...

[Spider]

I can see why direct downloads would benefit developers... but I still want my games on CD (or DVD)

 

What would be nice is if they allowed you to download it as a single extractable file and then include a registration key of some kind to prevent piracy.

 

That way I could back the file up, and still be happy with a hard copy just in case something goes wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

From what I can tell, most DD solutions already work like this. Steam does (although if Steam requires you to authenticate through their servers when re-installing something could get problematic) and the Galactic Civilizations II version also allows this. Companies do realize that people are paranoid and will be forced to design their service after that fact.

 

Then explain why most online downloads ALSO cost $50,-

 

If I have to choose 50,- for a digital copy (+$ downnloading, +$ for a disk) VS. 50,- in a shop (already on disk, with box, hopefully with manual and NOT pdf...) I will easily pick the shop-one...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is a reasonable question and one I've been asking myself. I think it's very odd to ask customers to pay for expenses that no longer exists. Sure, the developer gets more money, but by going the way of DD they already do that. I have the same problem when I buy a physical copy from the publisher's website. I get charged the full price and that of shipping. Which means they simply get to pocket the retailers share. If my actions are causing a company to save money, I expect to save money myself in the process, otherwise what is the point?

 

My largest problems with the Steam-model is that through the interview I understand that in order to use Steam, you must also use the Source engine. Even if the Source engine is very customizable and excellent in every way, I'm not sure I like the thought of so many games using the same engine. But time will tell when it comes to that.

 

((this also explains why Steam can be free of charge, since you have to pay to use Source, and I guess the contract for that includes the right to use Steam)

 

And by the way, a counter to the argument about what happens if the server goes down, is what happens if your CD gets scratched and the company goes out of business? How do you go about replacing your IWD cds for instance?

Edited May 9, 2006 by Spider

[Fenghuang]

 

Well I know this guy, man, and he can totally hook you up with what you're looking for.

 

[Tigranes]

Would that be the same guy as the one in your sig?

[Fenghuang]

I will neither confirm nor deny this so as not to incriminate myself or that guy in my sig.

 

But he can totally hook you up. In his van. By the river.

[Tigranes]

Oh boy oh boy!

[Dark_Raven]

forgive us for being blunt, but we suspect that many of the folks 'gainst download games is simply the deadbeats that can't get no credit card necessary to be purchasing games on-line.

 

ok, go back to your bickering.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have nothing against downloading games, my preference is to buy them in the store on a nice CD.

[Dark_Raven]

I prefer getting a game from the local store than downloading it. I get the CD/s for it and the manuel, which these days is sorely lacking. Whatever happen to good manuels like the ones for Baldur's Gate and Fallout?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which is why I feel the "I like to get the manual" argument is losing steam.

 

As for what happened to the manuals, people are trying to find ways to cut corners to combat the quickly rising cost of development.

 

 

EDIT: Get Steam here

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course it's losing steam, they are nothing like they used to be. You may get a few basic pointers on how to play the game, some credits and that is all.

[Dhruin]

This is a reasonable question and one I've been asking myself. I think it's very odd to ask customers to pay for expenses that no longer exists. Sure, the developer gets more money, but by going the way of DD they already do that. I have the same problem when I buy a physical copy from the publisher's website. I get charged the full price and that of shipping. Which means they simply get to pocket the retailers share. If my actions are causing a company to save money, I expect to save money  myself in the process, otherwise what is the point?

 

My largest problems with the Steam-model is that through the interview I understand that in order to use Steam, you must also use the Source engine. Even if the Source engine is very customizable and excellent in every way, I'm not sure I like the thought of so many games using the same engine. But time will tell when it comes to that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The pricing often isn't $50 for DD - have a look at the games available. Where the game is also a retail product, the price is often mandated by the retailers -- they will refuse to stock a game if the developer is selling it directly at a discounted price. I understand that isn't a perfect situation but it isn't easy to fix.

 

You certainly don't need to use Source to sell via Steam - again, have a look at the titles. McCarthy is saying you get free distribution on Steam if you use Source. Many others already use it - but they pay some percentage fee or whatever.

[Spider]

The pricing often isn't $50 for DD - have a look at the games available.  Where the game is also a retail product, the price is often mandated by the retailers -- they will refuse to stock a game if the developer is selling it directly at a discounted price.  I understand that isn't a perfect situation but it isn't easy to fix.

 

Sorry for being a bit unclear. I am aware that a lot of games aren't sold for $50 through DD. But there are those that are and that's what I was reflecting over. I do buy the retail explanation, but I still think it's dumb (but I can udnerstand the retailers position on this).

 

You certainly don't need to use Source to sell via Steam - again, have a look at the titles.  McCarthy is saying you get free distribution on Steam if you use Source.  Many others already use it - but they pay some percentage fee or whatever.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Cool, I didn't know this. I guess I just misinterpreted him then, and looking back on it it was rather clumsy of me . All the better really, one case where I don't mind being wrong.

[Gromnir]

forgive us for being blunt, but we suspect that many of the folks 'gainst download games is simply the deadbeats that can't get no credit card necessary to be purchasing games on-line.

 

ok, go back to your bickering.

 

HA! Good Fun!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have nothing against downloading games, my preference is to buy them in the store on a nice CD.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?sh...71entry614471

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hassat Hunter]

The pricing often isn't $50 for DD - have a look at the games available

 

Just for you I checked the Steam store (from the get steam here link). Can't say I call 30,- for an expansion, $10 for original Half-Life, $30,- for Half-Life2 less expensive than in the stores. Quite the opposite...

Not a single new game has a price listing there either; only older ones. And I mean $10 to play deathmatch ...

[metadigital]

Looks like you would lose.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If only there were some form of high-storage capacity portable optical disc media upon which one could write data.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

forgive us for being blunt, but we suspect that many of the folks 'gainst download games is simply the deadbeats that can't get no credit card necessary to be purchasing games on-line.

 

ok, go back to your bickering.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I stated quite clearly I thought this game had potential.  If it was coming out in stores, it would be  a very possible buy.Look, if Madden was offered  through DD only, I simply would not buy it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I believe you! Many wouldn't.

DD is evil. Plain, and simple.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[StillLife]

The pricing often isn't $50 for DD - have a look at the games available

 

Just for you I checked the Steam store (from the get steam here link). Can't say I call 30,- for an expansion, $10 for original Half-Life, $30,- for Half-Life2 less expensive than in the stores. Quite the opposite...

Not a single new game has a price listing there either; only older ones. And I mean $10 to play deathmatch ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yep, if they really want digital distribution to pick up steam, it would help if some of the increased cost efficiency would be brought over to consumers with more regularity, especially since you're going to a little more trouble to download plus you're giving up the physical materials that come with games. It would probably take a joint industry effort to force retailers into dealing with the reduced download cost though, while still carrying the game for full price in their stores. Slightly reduced profits are still better than no profits for them after all. It's doubtful that would ever happen though.

 

That's why the game in this discussion sounds good though - it will apparently only be available through download. $30 is fairly cheap, even for something that might not be quite as long as a full game should be.

[Spider]

especially since you're going to a little more trouble to download

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While I agree with most of your post, this I just don't understand. How is it more trouble downloading a game than going down to a store? Granted, my internet connection is good enough that going to a store and back will take longer than just dowloading (at least if the upload server manages to meet my capacity). But even besides that, getting a game without having to leave your home is more trouble how?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Ordering online.

 

http://shop.gameplay.co.uk/webstore/produc...rom_(aftermath)

 

how much is this on DD ?

[Hassat Hunter]

While I agree with most of your post, this I just don't understand. How is it more trouble downloading a game than going down to a store? Granted, my internet connection is good enough that going to a store and back will take longer than just dowloading (at least if the upload server manages to meet my capacity). But even besides that, getting a game without having to leave your home is more trouble how?

 

I actually forgot to mention Oblivion's AWESUM online deals. But this post reminded me to them again.

 

Both on price and why downloading can screw ya is inside this Oblivion "Plugins" debacle...

 

Ordering online.

 

http://shop.gameplay.co.uk/webstore/produc...rom_(aftermath)

 

how much is this on DD ?

 

http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/

$19.95

 

My shop (OFFLINE)

Euro 14.95

(Talk about buying in shops is cheaper)

 

I win :D

 

With such kind of numbers I really start to doubt the statements McCarthy of Troika and J.E. Sawyer make... and start doubting about their credibility...

I certainly NOT gonna DL to "help devs" if it is cheaper to buy the game in those stores who roam of 20% of the price for themselves (according to J.E.) and keep the prices the same (well, actually, lower)...

Edited May 9, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[Dhruin]

The pricing often isn't $50 for DD - have a look at the games available

 

Just for you I checked the Steam store (from the get steam here link). Can't say I call 30,- for an expansion, $10 for original Half-Life, $30,- for Half-Life2 less expensive than in the stores. Quite the opposite...

Not a single new game has a price listing there either; only older ones. And I mean $10 to play deathmatch ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Where did I say one sytem was better value than another? My point was simply that the prices vary - often they are the same or higher than retail - but sometimes not. For example, Darwinia is available on Steam for $19.99 or Cinema Marquee is releasing a retail version that EB Games currently has listed at $29.99.

 

For this particular game, the entire point is moot. There probably won't be a retail version and the game certainly wouldn't even exist without a viable DD platform.

 

With such kind of numbers I really start to doubt the statements McCarthy of Troika and J.E. Sawyer make... and start doubting about their credibility...

 

In what sense?

[Dhruin]

http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/

$19.95

 

My shop (OFFLINE)

Euro 14.95

(Talk about buying in shops is cheaper)

 

I win  :D

 

How so? My currency conversion says you paid equivalent to USD$19.12. 0.88c difference? Big deal.

 

On the other hand, SP paid >$22 via his UK store. Direct from Steam converts to ~11 GBP.

 

Your assertion is weak at best in this case.

[Hassat Hunter]

often they are the same or higher than retail

 

And thus you made MY main point for sticking with retail copies...

 

For this particular game, the entire point is moot.  There probably won't be a retail version and the game certainly wouldn't even exist without a viable DD platform.

 

Yeah, but it's TROIKA. Would you trust them with an online download (PoR2 remember)... besides that they never get themselves a producer in their entire lifetime; there should be a reason for that... and as all the other suppliers at Steam can get a retail... We shall see if this steam stuff makes their programming code better, but untill they proved that I remain sceptic and certainly wouldn't do something as pre-order or buy within the first 3 months...

And (Fear pro-download folks) IF this game is as buggy as all the other Troika stuff a LOT of support for Download above Producer is probably lost...

 

In what sense?

 

In the sense that they picture stores and producers as big greedy tieves while being worse ones themselves...

Not a good looking picture...

 

How so? My currency conversion says you paid equivalent to USD$19.12. 0.88c difference? Big deal.

 

And then I get an all written disk, booklet, hardcover AND I can spend my online time downloading different stuff than the game. Besides that HOW can it *actually* be 0.88c cheaper IF the retail stores roam off ALOT of the cash, not to mention my store actually has to make shipping costs too themselves...

 

PS. I hate it how despite that a Euro is 1.20 dollar or so they still do $ = Euro with alot of prices

Edited May 9, 2006 by Hassat Hunter

[J.E. Sawyer]

With such kind of numbers I really start to doubt the statements McCarthy of Troika and J.E. Sawyer make... and start doubting about their credibility...

So, because a developer keeps their DD pricepoint at about the same level as a retail outlet, that means that we're lying about how retail and cost of goods are added into retail pricing?

 

I never said that retailers are greedy. They are retailers, and their function in the marketplace is to provide a location at which to buy physical objects. It's a pretty basic function, but it comes with a lot of overhead. I'm not sure you can really argue with that.

[Hassat Hunter]

So, because a developer keeps their DD pricepoint at about the same level as a retail outlet, that means that we're lying about how retail and cost of goods are added into retail pricing?

 

No, because the retail pricing can be lower than the DD costs. If that is so I really wonder how somebody comes up with a 20% winst marge for the shop...

 

Where does this 20% go when there is no shop involved?

How much money *did* Valve made with Half-Life2 because they asked costumers far far far more than that they should have paid?