The good ol' times...

[mr insomniac]

Hmmm...

 

Take the BG series, or the IWD series... what difference does it make in the end, which class(es) or race(es) you chose at the beginning? What impact does it have on the game, what you choose to outfit the character(s) with? Outside of a few dialogues from people you meet in-game, you're still the Bhaalspawn (in BG) or a ragtag group of adventurers (in IWD) in the end. All those window-dressing-type options that Torment lacks, have little to no impact in those other games.

 

EDIT: Yeah, like Llyranor said, only more briefly.

Edited April 30, 2006 by mr insomniac

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Yet no way to really express those characters in the game.

 

 

It's still much more free than many other RPGs.  Pretty much all of the JRPGs are a write off in comparison, but there isn't too many on the CRPG side that let you go off and express yourself in your own way either.

 

I don't consider choosing different aesthetics of your character to be "making my own character" either.  Just choosing different variations that the developer provided for me.  Which is the classic limitation of CRPG games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You can to a degree.

 

Well JRPGs have predefined characters and if they don't have amnesia, then choosing a path isnt relevent. It should be noted however that many outcomes will change depending on the actions the the character takes (nothing as straightforward as clicking an option).

 

If you totally discount your imagination. Point still stands though that while you can define TNO after the fact. You had no say in his creation he is pregenerated.

[alanschu]

As, I'd say, MOST PCs in video games are.

 

 

Maybe JRPG games have changed recently, but they certainly never had "many" outcomes that could be changed. Though I haven't played one for quite some time.

[Volourn]

"you're still the Bhaalspawn"

 

Actually, you are *a* Bhaalspawn. Bhaallspawns aren't some uniform creature. Afterall, my siblings are my dadspawns; but we're all different. You aren't defined by your parent even if it is a god.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Lets take the story of Bob.

 

Bob is a 3'2 halfling with sandy brown hair and green eyes.

 

Bob although a fighter can only use thief weapons (bare with me there is a reason). Bob also has a rather nasty lump on his head and no memories.

 

Now this is the bit that gets revealed as the plot.

 

Bob is a thief. He's a good paid up member of the guild and he does jobs for hire.

During his last job Bob was forced to stash the item he stole because it was large and impeeded his escape. Bob's partner lost track of Bob and only found him later in an alley with a bemused look on his face and large lump on his head.

 

The game starts with you (as Bob) meeting her in the alley and reacting to the encounter.

 

If you don't attack, drive her off. She will join you. After taking care of Bobs injuries she will disapear and report to the guild. Given orders to stay with Bob so they can find the object.

 

Unfortunately the object is also wanted by several other factions. Bob's in a bit of a pickle but he dosnt know that.

 

Bob's now yours to play. You can even distribute his stats. But the concept of Bob has already been created

[mr insomniac]

:D I'll clarify. In the BG series, you're the Bhaalspawn who rises above all the others.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

:D I'll clarify. In the BG series, you're the Bhaalspawn who rises above all the others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But thats more to do with being the hero of the story than being a bhaal spawn.

If the game dosnt end in failure(you fail to finish it) you will always win because you have a reload button.

 

Take away the reload button in any RPG and how many characters would actually end up making it to the end scene ?

Edited April 30, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[alanschu]

Lets take the story of Bob.

 

Bob is a 3'2 halfling with sandy brown hair and green eyes.

 

Bob although a fighter can only use thief weapons (bare with me there is a reason). Bob also has a rather nasty lump on his head and no memories.

 

Now this is the bit that gets revealed as the plot.

 

Bob is a thief. He's a good paid up member of the guild and he does jobs for hire.

During his last job Bob was forced to stash the item he stole because it was large and impeeded his escape. Bob's partner lost track of Bob and only found him later in an alley with a bemused look on his face and large lump on his head.

 

The game starts with you (as Bob) meeting her in the alley and reacting to the encounter.

 

If you don't attack, drive her off. She will join you. After taking care of Bobs injuries she will disapear and report to the guild. Given orders to stay with Bob so they can find the object.

 

Unfortunately the object is also wanted by several other factions. Bob's in a bit of a pickle but he dosnt know that.

 

Bob's now yours to play. You can even distribute his stats. But the concept of Bob has already been created

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What??

[Volourn]

" In the BG series, you're the Bhaalspawn who rises above all the others."

 

Because of decisions you made. Because of some luck. Not because you are any more special than the other Bhaalspawn.

 

This is evidenced in some of the dream sequence sin TOB when Sarevok himself questions how things would have turned out if he was taken in by Gorion, and not you.

 

You rise above the others because as SP points out you act.

 

And, remember, the Bg series doens't need to end with all going well... While PST, no matter your decisions or morlaity - you either commit self sacrifice or you join the Blood War. In the end, even thoguh PST gives you plenty of chocies and ways to complete quests, thise choices end up meaning nothing at the End Game. (not that the Bg series is the apex of chocies mattering, that would be FO).

[alanschu]

What are the endings of the Baldur's Gate series?

[Dark_Raven]

You become the new lord of murder.

 

You give up your god powers and go back to being a mortal.

[Volourn]

Simple ones:

 

Good God.

 

Bad God.

 

Remain mortal.

Edited April 30, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

You mentioned Fallout as being the apex.

 

Why?

[Volourn]

Um. Because it is. Lots of choices. Choices that effect the game. FO's biggest weakness as far as endings is the lame way you are forced out of the Vault. Seeing how your choices influenced the various towns is cool. :cool:

 

The various endings for the various towns more than make up for it (plus, there's an extra ending of actually joining the bad guy - though I cna't see why anyone would)..

 

BIO has actually picked up on that with both HOTU, and JE (and JE, in some ways, goes the extra mile with actual PC chosen ending unlike Fo where you get kicked out no matter what). Probably, just to give an exuse for FO2 having one particular start...

Edited April 30, 2006 by Volourn

[alanschu]

I ask because Fallout's "ending" can be viewed in different ways.

 

You mention HotU and JE (which I haven't played), but TOB also gave a "recap" of your characters as well.

 

 

Though, you could still simplify it to only really having two choices: Join Mutants, Don't join Mutants. In the end, all the other stuff is just a recap (which is nice), but could also be done in other games as well, including Torment.

 

Because of little deviations like that though, a game like Star Ocean 2 can claim over 80 different endings, even though the way you play through the game is relatively static.

[Volourn]

The difference is the Fo endings change depending on how dealt with the various towns. IIRC, the TOB npc endings is just a recap that doesn't chnage at all (except I think in Sarevok and the drow witch's case b/c of their possible alignment chnage). The FO endings aren't really simple recaps.

[StillLife]

TNO is not really the PC's character. Nothing you do matters in the end. You ae predistined to go be part of the Blood War. You have no say (other than self destruction) so meh. You are designed by a past you have no control over, and your actions (both current and future) mean nothing. Hence, it's not truly  your character; but a borrowed character. PST gives you chocies; but in the end those choices mena anything. Not to mention the illogical FFish equipment style (for all characters) which is just plain 'ol lame. Look at me! I'm naked and cna't wear armour? WHY? Just because. Look at me? I see a crossbow. I can't use it? WHY? Because it's for a silly npc only. HAHAHAHA!!!

 

At least in KOTOR's amnesia story, at least the ex-Reven truly *is* your character, and what decisions you make are yours to make.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If someone has a terminal illness, and no matter what, they're going to end up dead in a couple months, that doesn't mean that regardless of what they do, they'll just be someone who's going to die from a disease. They could be a ruthless, vengeful bastard in their last days, leaving a trail of destruction and sorrow in their wake, or a kind, noble soul that tries to leave a positive mark on the world before they go. Those actions and choices are what define who a person is, not where they end up, or whether or not they can change their destiny.

 

So it's false to say the choices you make that define who your character are pointless, even if you have an inescapable fate lying ahead of you. Often, the journey is more important than the destination.

[Volourn]

The problem is that it wasn't logical for that to be the only ending (other than self sacrifice). That's the problem.

 

Someone in the real world who has incurbale illness has no choice.

 

There's no way that it should ahve been amantory to serve in the Blood War. Afterall, the entire premise of TNO was that he's made a habit of ditching it. It was asilly way to try to make a 'deep' ending' that came up as shallow and forced which is a pity considering PST is supposed to be a game about choice.

 

Absolutely no logical reason.

[Llyranor]

Because of little deviations like that though, a game like Star Ocean 2 can claim over 80 different endings, even though the way you play through the game is relatively static.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

80 endings!!!1!1!1!!11

 

SO2's final battle made up for the relative crapitude of the whole game.

[alanschu]

The problem is that it wasn't logical for that to be the only ending (other than self sacrifice). That's the problem.

 

Someone in the real world who has incurbale illness has no choice.

 

There's no way that it should ahve been amantory to serve in the Blood War. Afterall, the entire premise of TNO was that he's made a  habit of ditching it. It was  asilly way to try to make a 'deep' ending' that came up as shallow and forced which is a pity considering PST is supposed to be a game about choice.

 

Absolutely no logical reason.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I disagree. I felt the ending made perfect sense.

[Colrom]

I will never feel again the sense of immersion I felt when playing BG2.

What you're failing to take into consideration is the fact that you are changing too. When you first played those old IE games you had not experienced anything like it before. That exhilarating feeling is bound to disappear after a few similar games.

 

I don't think there's anything missing in today's games, what you're missing is instead that feeling, which you won't feel again until something new that suits you as well as the IE games did back then comes along.

 

Or maybe you've just gotten older and now lack the ability to become as excited over a computer game anymore? One of the curses of maturing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Whenever I replay Torment or Fallout or Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale I always enjoy them more than the more recent renditions like NWN or Torment or Bloodlines or Knights of the Old Republic. So the original impressions are steady for me. Those older games were better RPGs - or better in some way than the newer games.

 

Maybe the point is that, while good scenery is important to the production of a play, better scenery does not compensate for a weaker screenplay.

 

:D

Edited April 30, 2006 by Colrom

[StillLife]

The problem is that it wasn't logical for that to be the only ending (other than self sacrifice). That's the problem.

 

Maybe, but it still didn't erase what your character did through the course of the game.

 

Someone in the real world who has incurbale illness has no choice.

 

There's no way that it should ahve been amantory to serve in the Blood War. Afterall, the entire premise of TNO was that he's made a  habit of ditching it. It was  asilly way to try to make a 'deep' ending' that came up as shallow and forced which is a pity considering PST is supposed to be a game about choice.

 

Absolutely no logical reason.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

One of your previoius incarnations had signed a contract though, sealing your fate to serve in the Blood War eventually, no matter what. I guess they could have given you a choice to keep trying to escape it, but the sense of closure wouldn't have been as good IMO. It still doesn't mean everything you did through the course of the game ceased to matter.

[alanschu]

Whenever I replay Torment or Fallout or Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale I always enjoy them more than the more recent renditions like NWN or Torment or Bloodlines or Knights of the Old Republic. So the original impressions are steady for me. Those older games were better RPGs - or better in some way than the newer games.

 

I think this has a lot to do with nostalgia. While playing it, you are reminded of the fun you had when first playing it.

 

As an anecdote, I have no problems playing the "great" games of the NES days, as long as I had played them before. Other "great" games (like the original Zelda) that I hadn't played, I just cannot get past the generation gap.

 

No problems playing A Link to the Past though, which I played growing up.

Edited May 1, 2006 by alanschu

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

One of your previoius incarnations had signed a contract though, sealing your fate to serve in the Blood War eventually, no matter what.  I guess they could have given you a choice to keep trying to escape it, but the sense of closure wouldn't have been as good IMO.  It still doesn't mean everything you did through the course of the game ceased to matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But it does reinforce the feeling that your playing someone elses character for whom they have already determined the "destiny" of before you even start the game.

 

If an RPG gives me choices I want those to be about a character I created. Not to play out a choose your own adventure style book with someone elses.

[alanschu]

Then video game RPGs probably aren't for you.