kirottu Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 "Then why did Lucasarts cut so much from KOTOR 2?" LA didn't cut it anything. That was Obsidian. LA may have asked for the game to be made by a certain date; but Obsidian is the develoepr, and they should (and do) take some responsibilities. I wish Obsidian fanboys would understand that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But ending was cut to it This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
Volourn Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 "But ending was cut to it DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
alanschu Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 Ok, I couldn't let this one go. Even if they cut alot, did they cut 33%.... don't think so. And cutting will be used ALWAYS, but it is not often because of "no time" when there is 6 months left or because "10 hours is too many for gamers to play through so we need to dump it" or whatever other reason that makes no sense. It happens to make sure parts get away that slow down the pace (but 33% huh.gif) or make absolutely no sense, or the parts that may spoil the exiting parts plot too soon, but this... Unless you work in software development, you cannot say what is or is not "often" the reason for a cut. No, because during this "bouncing" you can still work and progress on other fronts while if you first have to finish this more time (and thus money) loss will be experienced...And you still didn't get the point across that you can DOWNGRADE a toolset too if it malfunctions... "there is no point loading it up with an old toolset"; well it does if that old toolset replaces the newer due to the fact it corrupts the made data... It has nothing to do with corruption. Unless you have worked in software development, you cannot really comment. Ofcourse programmers are needed to fix bugs, but hell, they could also take them away from PNJ or PG temporary if they find themselves with alot of bugs. Then you screw up the scheduling from PNJ and PG. Unless you have worked in software development, you cannot really comment. Priority. If there is a heavy crashbug don't you think they fix that one before some minor graphical glitch. Maybe the glitch is part of a larger issue (like an entire shader) and thus gets not fixed individually but with the whole package? Priority has nothing to do with it. Yes, they will fix a bug that causes more damage, but that's not what I was talking about. A smaller bug is still going to be recorded. It just won't be fixed first. So a bug is not going to be forgotten because of the "routine" of it being there, because it would have initially been recorded as a bug in the first place. If it was missed initially, then the point is moot, because if someone with many more views of it misses it, the likelihood of it being spotted by someone that goes over it less is not going to be any better. Unless you have experience with QA though, you're just guessing. Not what I said. If you wan't to save yourself cash by saving 10 hours of the game wouldn't you just NOT make the content instead of scraping it? Of course. But unless the developers have the benefit of precognition, it's impossible to tell. If it is already made what would be more WASTE OF MONEY... adding some extra cash (minor to the already spend cash) to make the content includable (thus no waste of the already spend cash), or by just scrapping it, making all of it go to waste? Like I said, go read up on sunk costs. Yes, it would be a waste of money...but the point is moot because that money has already been spent. I guarantee that if it was only a minimal investment to ensure that the "cut content" was on par with the rest of the game, it would not have been cut. The wiki for sunk costs is pretty good, and also explains the sunk cost fallacy. Any introductory economics textbook is likely to get into detail, and hopefully clear up the issue for you. Ofcourse it costs some additional cash, but you actually save ALOT of other spend money with it. What? You are saying that by hiring more people, you'll end up saving other money? I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.
kirottu Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 (edited) "But ending was cut to it Edited April 28, 2006 by kirottu This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 Thinking they could get away with an ending like that in a mainstream game seems kinda niave. Star Wars has the odd graphic moment. But it dosnt really dwell on them. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
Dark_Raven Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 "Then why did Lucasarts cut so much from KOTOR 2?" LA didn't cut it anything. That was Obsidian. LA may have asked for the game to be made by a certain date; but Obsidian is the develoepr, and they should (and do) take some responsibilities. I wish Obsidian fanboys would understand that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LA takes full blame for that. If they tell Obs they want the game out and out now, what course does Obs have but to butcher the game and make it playable enough for release? Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed.
Volourn Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 (edited) "what course does Obs have but to butcher the game and make it playable enough for release?" They signed the contract. Their choice, they're perogative. And, it seems they don't mind, sinc eit seems they *relaly* wnat to develop KOTOR3 very much. Obs is the developer. No exuses. They're not helpless nor are they slaves. Edited April 28, 2006 by Volourn DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Hassat Hunter Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 I give up on the discussion with Alanschu. Congrats, you won! On the blame LA/OE; I blame LA. They could have saved their hide by making it look like OE did it by just giving some proper support but witholding 1.0B (in unfinished state) and the movie/music-patch both for 3 months really showed THEY are the ones at fault. Also the high bugginess of Kotor2 can not be written to OE since the QA was at LA at the time (Main reason #1 OE hired their own QA for NWN2, PNJ, PG and the rest)... ^ I agree that that is such a stupid idiotic pathetic garbage hateful retarded scumbag evil satanic nazi like term ever created. At least top 5. TSLRCM Official Forum || TSLRCM Moddb || My other KOTOR2 mods || TSLRCM (English version) on Steam || [M4-78EP on Steam Formerly known as BattleWookiee/BattleCookiee
Volourn Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 The main reason is that it's only smart for a developer to have their own QA. Afterall, a dev knows more about the game they're making then the publisher... or at least they should... It's no wonder that devs like Bio, Blizzard, and Bethesda are so successful, and so big... And, 2/3 of those comapnies (in comaprison to other devs) have relatively bug free games. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
alanschu Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 QA can be expensive. I imagine that's why it's not too uncommon for studios to not have it.
Dark_Raven Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 The main reason is that it's only smart for a developer to have their own QA. Afterall, a dev knows more about the game they're making then the publisher... or at least they should... It's no wonder that devs like Bio, Blizzard, and Bethesda are so successful, and so big... And, 2/3 of those comapnies (in comaprison to other devs) have relatively bug free games. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bug free?? R00fles!! Time for you to come back to reality. Diablo has ten patches to its name, which tells me that game was pretty damned buggy if it required having ten patches released. Plus it tells me they could not get it right with the previous nine patches. Same goes with your beloved NWN. How many patches does that game have? Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed.
Dark_Raven Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 There is no such thing as a bug free game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Volo thinks there is thanks to godlike QA. Hades was the life of the party. RIP You'll be missed.
Volourn Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 (edited) "QA can be expensive. I imagine that's why it's not too uncommon for studios to not have it." True. And, it's probably one of the reasons why getting a development studio off the ground and into success isn't all that easy espicially when you are depending on a publisher who probably has another half dozen or so devlopers working on games they ahevto QA for. Plus, one can QA all they want. It means nothing if what the QA finds isn't 'fixed' which is IIRC is the developer's job. "Bug free?? R00fles!! Time for you to come back to reality. Diablo has ten patches to its name, which tells me that game was pretty damned buggy if it required having ten patches released. Plus it tells me they could not get it right with the previous nine patches." Comparititvely speaking. Please read. Also a lot of those patches are more than just mere bug fixes. In fact, the msot recent NWN is probably mostly an update. Plus, most buggy games get 1 or 2 patches and then thrown in the trash. See: BL, TOEE, and KOTOR2 (though this one isn't nearly as buggy as the other two) as examples of this. "Volo thinks there is thanks to godlike QA." WOW! I didn't think you were one to make things up. Better reread my post again. Edited April 28, 2006 by Volourn DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Volourn Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 Alanshu wins. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Judge Hades Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 In any case I don't squarely blame LA. Its Obsidian's game and Volourn is right, they did sign the contract. I blame LA and OBsidian equally but what is done is done. The real test is Neverwinter Nights 2. That game will determine if Obsidian learn the lessons of KotOR 2.
Volourn Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 And, they have. Hence the hiring of a QA team. Obsidian wins. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Judge Hades Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 (edited) That was the first step only, Volourn, but a step in the right direction. Edited April 28, 2006 by Judge Hades
LoneWolf16 Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 More and more, I'm wondering how mods are chosen... Length of the game depends on the type and if it's fun enough to make up for any shortcomings in that area. I blame LA for holding back patches, content request denial, and a very, very short time given to develop a full game. I blame OE for not building their game around the time frame they were given. I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 I blame LA for holding back patches, content request denial, and a very, very short time given to develop a full game. I blame OE for not building their game around the time frame they were given. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well it's like being told you have a month to write an essay. Then 2 weeks later being told you only have a week left. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
Volourn Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 "Well it's like being told you have a month to write an essay. Then 2 weeks later being told you only have a week left." Except in this case, when KOTOR2 was announced, Christmas time was the due date then it got pushed back til February then only the x-box version got moved back up to Christmas. So, your analogy doesn't work as clearly as you think. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 Except in this case, when KOTOR2 was announced, Christmas time was the due date then it got pushed back til February then only the x-box version got moved back up to Christmas. So, your analogy doesn't work as clearly as you think. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Only the US Xbox version was released at that time. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback]
Volourn Posted April 28, 2006 Posted April 28, 2006 "Only the US Xbox version was released at that time." That doesn't change anything nor does it prove your point in any way. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
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