KOTOR 2 purposely making fun of Lucas's ideas?

[The Yeti of 66]

Through her? Well that to me seems like we have a reason to be lvl 1 again in the next game.....

[Mellypie]

Through her? Well that to me seems like we have a reason to be lvl 1 again in the next game.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah, but the Exile is not feeling the Force solely through Kreia but through Atton, Mira, Bao, Mical/Handmaiden, Visas and (like I said before) life in general, too. Remember Atton was there from the beginning as well.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Mellypie

[The Yeti of 66]

Through her? Well that to me seems like we have a reason to be lvl 1 again in the next game.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah, but the Exile is not feeling the Force solely through Kreia but through Atton, Mira, Bao, Mical/Handmaiden, Visas and (like I said before) life in general, too. Remember Atton was there from the beginning as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But you go on without them remember? And no mentioning the extra female ending. Adding that would have been stupid since the Exile was to be alone, just like Revan.

 

If they did use that though I'm sure your next siphon would be on Revan.

[Mellypie]

Mmm, you must have missed the "life in general" part. The Force exsists in all living things to some extent. Even non-Force sensitives.

 

And the Exile going off to find Revan is open to intepretation and player choice. My (female) Exile, would be hot footing it back to Coruscant to get the Jedi Temple back in order, and trying to find Brianna. I always use the "I don't want to be here anymore" dialog option.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Mellypie

[Hekate]

• When faced with a continuous series of hard-fought battles, I detected a significant statistical increase in Jedi following Revan over the Jedi Code - a compromise in principles brought about by battlefield conditions.The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance
  
• Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.
  
• I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.
  
• What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic.
  
• From these comments it seems clear that Revan purposefully manipulated events to suit his/her plans and knew exactly what the consequences would be for the jedi - s/he knew what the will of the force would be.
  

It sounds to me as if Revan used her/his tactics to affect the Jedi and Force sensitives throughout the war. Eventually, the lfinal conversion stage came down to one decisive last event with the destruction of Malachor V. A point that seems rather clear since we agree on it

 

But, i can't see how messing up the Jedi through trauma and by the cause-and-effect of destroying Malachor V equates to the Jedi turning to the DS being the Force's will. It seems more like an oft misused physics theory "for every action there is an equivalent reaction", meaning; because of the bad way Revan went about creating the power spot and destroying the Jedi's psyches, it is a natural consequence they should turn to the DS. In essence, Revan broke the Jedis' wills and spirits. IMHO it is because of human (Ithorian and so forth) nature they got corrupted. Not because the Force wanted them to turn to the DS. As seems to be supported by Kreia's own statements:

• They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.
  
• The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from
  

Does that make sense? It is so hard for me to tell anymore :D

There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death.

It is especially the "feeds on death" part i find particularily intersting. In earlier discussions in this thread and in others on this forum, the question of how Nihilous leeches vs. how Exile leeches comes up. And this statement of Kreia's is saying Nihilous (being a creation of the destruction), as Malachor V does since the war too, feeds not on the Force, but rather on the "energy" released through the death of those in tune with the Force. Kinda like soakin' up the energy realsed when breaking molecular bonds (similar to nuclear power). It seems; however; Nihilous can also drain both non/Force sentives as he did Tobin and the mindless puppets on the Ravager's bridge. The point being, he doesn't seem to directly drain the Force from people; he seems to kill them and (metaphorically speaking) eat their souls which leaves the absence of Force/life. Even with all that said, i still can't reconcile the discrepencies in the basic mechanics, and thus concept, of what is being leeched (Force, life energy, both, other...) nor of how (killing midi-chlorians, draining Force, etc).

How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live.

Uh... call me cheeky, but that could be interpreted in the "how could one choose to turn away from the power of being able to leech, which (turning away) can only be done through giving up the Force since, for all of those touched by Mallachor V, to connect with the Force can from then on only be done by feeding on others". In other words, Exile was permanently affected by Malachor V, and will never be able to use the Force normally again. And rather than her/his choosing to become like Nihilous and friends, Exile chose instead to cut her/his self off from the Force entirely. So, that could mean Exile isn't a Force black hole, rather, Exile is Forceless.

Here it becomes clear, at least to me, that the Exile did walk away from the "destiny" that was thrust upon him/her by the force, especially when you compare it to something Kreia says at the end of the game.

Ahhh, clarity... i remember those days...

 

So are you using "destiny" as a means of saying karmic outcome? Exile ordered the MSG be used so it is her/his destiny to carry the consequences of that decision? Or are you saying it is all a part of the Force's "master plan" that Exile should become DS?

But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force.

And with that, all the theories fall apart. How can one individual severing her/his ties to the Force make a wound in the Force? That is what gets me so confused. Using Mellypie's suggestion of Exile killed the midi-chlorians, i don't understand how that can leave a wound in the Force. There seems to be a connection to how Exile cut her/himself off from the Force and the effect it had of creating a wound in the Force. And Kreia also said Exile using the Force casts echoes (which makes sense only in the context of s/he is a wound in the Force). She seemed to believe that was a risk she was willing to take in awakening Exile in order for Exile to be able to eliminate Nihilous' threat.

Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it."

I was reminded of biology and chemistry class with the homeostasis concept; that life has a tendency toward balance (not necessarily order vs. chaos. A different argument entirely) and so does the Force. Makes sense. When things are out of whack, all hell breaks loose because of how interconnected everything is. The Force connects even the most distant solar systems to eachother, even through the vacuum of space. It connects all. So i guess it boils down to this; can life exist without that balancing (and hence destiny controlling) aspect of the Force? or will too much disruption occur (ie: ozone depletion) and eventually, all life will die? That is of course, if the Exile really is a wound in the Force.

Note that he tells Anakin that the jedi would have no knowledge of the force without them, not that all life would cease to exist.

Yeah, so if midi-chlorians are the "conduit" for the Force, than without them, the Force wouldn't be able to be felt, but the Force would still be there.

The Sith Lords introduces new way of looking into the jedi and sith( due to no small part of Kreia). This is a more neutral or human look to the events. I have seen complaints that K2 does not feel typicly "Star Wars" like K1. However, I feel it is better that way; the RPGs as I view them are to introduce a player in a complex and detailed world similar to life on the planet Earth where the player's choices have a great effect on the story developement.

Yep. Just look at the indepth discussions the games have evoked. It adds more layers, sub-text, and psychology to the SW universe. Even with their little cheeky jibes

[Mellypie]

<snip> Even with their little cheeky jibes 

 

 

{Wide-eyed innocent, like Anakin in Episode 1}

 

Are you an angel? Aw, I'm just kidding. That's the worst line I've ever used. Hope some poor kid doesn't start using it. ~Atton's F!Exile easter egg.

[Hekate]

Anyway that my inane ramblings on the subject, pick them apart at will.  :D

And pick them apart, we shall

That life can exsist without the Force.

i don't know... it seems as though the choices a person has with regards to Force connected or not are either A) Force or B) a life-sucking wound in the Force.

 

The Exile when she severed herself from the Force killed all the Midi-chlorians in her, the reason she can still use the Force could be because she is listening to the Midi-chlorians in others.

 

Makes sense except for one thing, how can she feel the midi-chlorians in others if the ones in her (assuming they are the vehicle for a person to be able to precieve the Force) are dead?

 

Perhaps you can hear the Force again... distantly, through me.

 

Leave it to Kreia to confuse the matter some more

 

Through her? Well that to me seems like we have a reason to be lvl 1 again in the next game.....

 

 

{Wide-eyed innocent, like Anakin in Episode 1}

 

Are you an angel? Aw, I'm just kidding. That's the worst line I've ever used. Hope some poor kid doesn't start using it. ~Atton's F!Exile easter egg.

 

[Jediphile]

Through her? Well that to me seems like we have a reason to be lvl 1 again in the next game.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah, but the Exile is not feeling the Force solely through Kreia but through Atton, Mira, Bao, Mical/Handmaiden, Visas and (like I said before) life in general, too. Remember Atton was there from the beginning as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But you go on without them remember? And no mentioning the extra female ending. Adding that would have been stupid since the Exile was to be alone, just like Revan.

 

If they did use that though I'm sure your next siphon would be on Revan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You might think so, but there seems to be a lot going on at the end of K2 that the Exile is unaware of. For example, a big reason for his search for the jedi is the bond with Kreia, which can harm them both and even kill one if the other dies. Yet Kreia dies at the end, and the Exile is fine. Why? There is more going on, and I have my suspicions about it... Suffice it to say that I think the Exile restored his own connection to the force...

[Jediphile]

But, i can't see how messing up the Jedi through trauma and by the cause-and-effect of destroying Malachor V equates to the Jedi turning to the DS being the Force's will.

(snip)

In essence, Revan broke the Jedis' wills and spirits. IMHO it is because of human (Ithorian and so forth) nature they got corrupted. Not because the Force wanted them to turn to the DS. As seems to be supported by Kreia's own statements:

• They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.
   
  
• The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from
  

Does that make sense? It is so hard for me to tell anymore :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would make sense, except for the last bit where you quote Kreia, but leave a bit out. The full quote is:

 

Kreia: "The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one."

 

That last bit is fairly important. Because it suggests that the corruption of the jedi is not merely an inescapable consequence of the events on Malachor V. The Exile is not some omniscient being who can defy the laws of physics, so how did s/he resist the corruption that befall all other jedi? How is it possible that the Exile did not fall to the dark side, if that is the natural and inevitable consequence of what happened?

 

The only explanation I can see is that his/her ability to do so is the very proof of the will of the force that Kreia is talking about. None of the other jedi could resist that will, but the Exile did. S/he defied the destiny that was cast upon him/her and denied the will of the force.

 

Uh... call me cheeky, but that could be interpreted in the "how could one choose to turn away from the power of being able to leech, which (turning away) can only be done through giving up the Force since, for all of those touched by Mallachor V, to connect with the Force can from then on only be done by feeding on others". In other words, Exile was permanently affected by Malachor V, and will never be able to use the Force normally again. And rather than her/his choosing to become like Nihilous and friends, Exile chose instead to cut her/his self off from the Force entirely. So, that could mean Exile isn't a Force black hole, rather, Exile is Forceless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, except that changed when he began using the force again. That's when he became a leech/siphon.

 

So are you using "destiny" as a means of saying karmic outcome? Exile ordered the MSG be used so it is her/his destiny to carry the consequences of that decision? Or are you saying it is all a part of the Force's "master plan" that Exile should become DS?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, is the consequence of his choice a question of what his own morality bids him to do? Clearly the Exile did not want to fall to the dark side, but what I found intersting was that he actually had to deny and even wound the force in order to prevent that from happening.

[Canaan Aphettu]

The first review of Kotor II pointed out that, as the middle act of what we all hope will be a three-part series, it's got the most in common with Empire Strikes Back. Then they said "It not so much does an Empire, but outdoes it". This could well be true - TSL is very, very dark, far more so than the first Kotor, and hopefully, than the 3rd film will be. After all, this film's wise old mentor turns out to be the Dark Lord of the Sith who is controlling everything, trying to teach you to use your allies without them knowing, while she's secretly doing this to you.

 

So considering that Kreia's such a bad egg, it's no surprise that she doubts the "wisdom" of the Jedi council.

 

 

And this particular line - "There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you." is, I think, not referring to how the Jedi are wrong, but rather to how, unlike the first game (Revan), the fifth film (Father), the sixth film(Sister), the first film (Queen), and indeed the third film if you didn't know the Emperor's last name (Sidious), in this game, there is no sudden plot twist. No (and I'm paraphrasing here) "dark secret that will shatter you to your core". There is only you.

 

Clearly the Exile did not want to fall to the dark side, but what I found intersting was that he actually had to deny and even wound the force in order to prevent that from happening.

 

New question - was there really a wound in the Force? Or was that what Kreia and the Jedi percieved? Is it possible to damage a non-corporeal entity, or is it more likely that, because the Force "created by all living things", to quote Kenobi, it merely absorbed the deaths of Malachor, as those beings became one with it, and this sudden absorbtion of souls caused a change in its appearance, in the way the Jedi percieved it? Many individuals were wounded at Malachor - the Exile, Sion, Nihilus, Bao Dur, etc etc, but was this merely damagage to individuals, rather than to the Force as a whole. Malachor sent ripples through the Force, to be sure, but a wound? I'm not convinced.

[Hekate]

But you go on without them remember? And no mentioning the extra female ending. Adding that would have been stupid since the Exile was to be alone, just like Revan.

Just a little food for thought. Just because they leave Malachor V together (assuming he isn't a Force Ghost) doesn't necessarily mean he joins her to go find Revan. If Exile does indeed need a leeching subject, than Atton would do just fine, wouldn't he? Besides, if Malachor V is intact and those who survived remain behind, that means Exile is DS and may even be aspiring to build her/his own Sith army or whatever using the power spot as Revan did. Lots of people decide Exile has to be alone. I find that kinda odd that just because Revan did so, the assumption is Exile will.

 

If they did use that though I'm sure your next siphon would be on Revan. 

Nice line of thought! That didn't cross mine by a long shot.

 

You might think so, but there seems to be a lot going on at the end of K2 that the Exile is unaware of. For example, a big reason for his search for the jedi is the bond with Kreia, which can harm them both and even kill one if the other dies. Yet Kreia dies at the end, and the Exile is fine. Why? There is more going on, and I have my suspicions about it... Suffice it to say that I think the Exile restored his own connection to the force...

Another question is how did Exile know the Force bond between them was cut, since Exile had no clue it was there in the first place, and it seemed as if s/he and Kreia did not feel eachother as Bastila and Revan did? Was Exile perhaps willing to sacrifice her/his life in order to kill Kreia? I don't think so, that just doesn't make sense based on what went on in the game. I'm thinking Korriban plays a role in the Force bond breaking occurence, but don't know how. Curious too how Kreia was 'almost dead' the whole time Exile was out cold and didn't wake up until after Exile came close to her. My working theory is Kreia shifted her consciousness into Exile before they reached Peragus. And she must have had help considering they somehow survived an assault the whole Rep. ship (not Sojourn... forgot again) could not, and in the severely battered Ebon Hawk that just happens to be able to make it into Peragus safely...

 

The other thought on that is trying to figure out how they bonded in the first place. It seemed a rather one-way bond with Kreia having to establish contact. It seemed as though Kreia was the one guiding Exile even when Exile was reading the others' surface thoughts. Intersting Exile could understand Bao-Dur, yet Kreia could not. Is that perhaps a link between Bao-Dur and Exile because of Malachor V?

 

And i say damn straight something else is going on. But are we ever gonna find out what it is? "

 

What is your theory, Jediphile? You've mentioned you have one a few times... or are you keeping it a secret?

 

 

That last bit is fairly important. Because it suggests that the corruption of the jedi is not merely an inescapable consequence of the events on Malachor V. The Exile is not some omniscient being who can defy the laws of physics, so how did s/he resist the corruption that befall all other jedi? How is it possible that the Exile did not fall to the dark side, if that is the natural and inevitable consequence of what happened?

 

The only explanation I can see is that his/her ability to do so is the very proof of the will of the force that Kreia is talking about. None of the other jedi could resist that will, but the Exile did. S/he defied the destiny that was cast upon him/her and denied the will of the force.

And this is where i get lost. my intent is not to be a pain, but aren't you contradicting yourself in the first vs. second paragraphs? Exile isn't an ominiscient being, her/him cutting her/his self off from the Force defies what should have happened. Gotcha up to there. So Exile defies the will of the Force by doing what only an ominiscient being could do, proving the Force has a will? That would only apply if the will of the Force was for Exile not to succumb to the echoes and iminent fall to the DS by instead becoming a wound in the Force...

 

A side poit. I'm not so sure falling to the DS is the natural consequence of Malachor V. Being severly psychologically traumatized is. And Revan used that to work her/his evil 'turn others to the DS' mojo on those who survived Malachor V. And i thought, based on HK-47's and Kreia's explanations, Malachor V was used to either convert or get rid of those of the Republic Revan felt were a potential threat.

 

But the other part to that is answering why all of those who survived fell to the DS. That wounding echo seems to have made anyone who didn't do what Exile did into Force leechers (like those Force Camouflaging assissn types) and that is why they fell. Was it the will of the Force all who were touched by Malachor V's destruction become DS unless they resisted succumbing to the echoes? I tend to view it as a consequence of being touched by the echoes from not cutting oneself off from the Force. But it seems everyone there was pretty much screwed no matter what. Hey, maybe that is the will of the Force; you mess with the Force and you're gonna pay

 

So are you using "destiny" as a means of saying karmic outcome? Exile ordered the MSG be used so it is her/his destiny to carry the consequences of that decision? Or are you saying it is all a part of the Force's "master plan" that Exile should become DS?

 

Well, is the consequence of his choice a question of what his own morality bids him to do? Clearly the Exile did not want to fall to the dark side, but what I found intersting was that he actually had to deny and even wound the force in order to prevent that from happening.

 

Ahh, so the thought is: by cuting himself off from the Force he is rejecting its will. Is that it?

[Jediphile]

My working theory is Kreia shifted her consciousness into Exile before they reached Peragus. And she must have had help considering they somehow survived an assault the whole Rep. ship (not Sojourn... forgot again) could not, and in the severely battered Ebon Hawk that just happens to be able to make it into Peragus safely...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The entire opening of the game has long bugged me. Just how did Kreia get aboard the Ebon Hawk? We know that T3 controls the Ebon Hawk, since he locked the navi-computer as per Revan's orders, we know that T3 went with Revan to the unknown regions and then went back (Carth tells the LS Exile this after the fight with Nihilus), and we know that T3 sought the Exile out because Bastila (or Carth) commanded him to do so.

 

Kreia did not, however, go to the unknown regions. She says so herself at the end. "If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know."

 

So just how did she end up on the Ebon Hawk? I don't know. I half suspect that she was on the sith war ship using her camouflage and then snuck onto the Ebon Hawk...

 

Intersting Exile could understand Bao-Dur, yet Kreia could not. Is that perhaps a link between Bao-Dur and Exile because of Malachor V?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think so. They're old war buddies, and those bonds are pretty tight, as I'm certain any war veteran will confirm.

 

What is your theory, Jediphile? You've mentioned you have one a few times... or are you keeping it a secret? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not really. I've explained it on these boards before, but I'll open up a can of worms if I mention it here, I fear. If you're interested, take at look towards the end of page 1 in this topic.

 

That last bit is fairly important. Because it suggests that the corruption of the jedi is not merely an inescapable consequence of the events on Malachor V. The Exile is not some omniscient being who can defy the laws of physics, so how did s/he resist the corruption that befall all other jedi? How is it possible that the Exile did not fall to the dark side, if that is the natural and inevitable consequence of what happened?

 

The only explanation I can see is that his/her ability to do so is the very proof of the will of the force that Kreia is talking about. None of the other jedi could resist that will, but the Exile did. S/he defied the destiny that was cast upon him/her and denied the will of the force.

And this is where i get lost. my intent is not to be a pain, but aren't you contradicting yourself in the first vs. second paragraphs? Exile isn't an ominiscient being, her/him cutting her/his self off from the Force defies what should have happened. Gotcha up to there. So Exile defies the will of the Force by doing what only an ominiscient being could do, proving the Force has a will? That would only apply if the will of the Force was for Exile not to succumb to the echoes and iminent fall to the DS by instead becoming a wound in the Force...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do hope that I'm not contradicting myself, but then I can scarcely judge that myself. Anway, I guess the point I've failed to make is that while the Exile did this, he has no idea that he did it. The Exile is, as per Vandar's comments, an average jedi, but he has a uniquely powerful ability that no other jedi has. Only he is completely oblivious to it himself. When he rejects the will of the force, he doesn't do so as a conscious choice, but as a pure act of instinct, just as you would say "ouch" if you were stuck by something or would quickly remove your hand on instinct if you accidentally put it on the hot stove.

 

Ahh, so the thought is: by cuting himself off from the Force he is rejecting its will. Is that it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. That's how I see it.

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

I hate such long posts.... besides, kreia only has a different view but that doesnt mean K2 is contradicting Lucas' ideas.

[Mellypie]

I've said it over and over and over that I don't think Kreia was on board the Ebon Hawk when it was attacked, the first time, by the Sith War ship. She says: When we intercepted the Harbinger, it was crippled, drifting in space. It was a simple matter to board the vessel and rescue you. {Sighs} Unknown to me, however, the Sith were already on board. Just as we made the jump to hyperspace, they fired upon us, nearly destroying the Ebon Hawk.

 

Now how could she intercept the Harbinger if she was already on board the Ebon Hawk? The Ebon Hawk which was on board the Harbinger? It sounds to me like there was a third ship, one that Kreia used to board the Harbinger. She found the Exile and just used the Ebon Hawk to escape. Sion fired on the ship again, leaving it in the state we find it in the prologue.

 

 

Makes sense except for one thing, how can she feel the midi-chlorians in others if the ones in her (assuming they are the vehicle for a person to be able to precieve the Force) are dead? 

Leave it to Kreia to confuse the matter some more 

 

In Ep. I Qui-Gon says "they constantly speak to us, telling us the will of the Force." Now if kreia could teach the Exile to merely "listen" to the midi chlorians in others... which is basically what she does in that first cutscene where we learn the passive precognition. The Exile says twice (once there and once later) that the Force feels different: "But it doesn't feel like it did... it feels like it is coming from across a great distance. and No... it felt... different. Faint. Perhaps because it was coming from a source other than her/him, from Atton, from Kreia. This is why I don't agree with the Force leeching crap that the Council gives in you in the LS version of the Dantooine enclave. How can they presume to know about the Exile, when they never spent any time with her? When they never saw and felt what she did? Especially when others like Chodo Habat say the Exile can possibly be healed.

Edited April 21, 2006 by Mellypie

[Jediphile]

I hate such long posts....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

:">

 

besides, kreia only has a different view but that doesnt mean K2 is contradicting Lucas' ideas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You're right. It doesn't.

 

Short enough?

[Jediphile]

I've said it over and over and over that I don't think Kreia was on board the Ebon Hawk when it was attacked, the first time, by the Sith War ship. She says: When we intercepted the Harbinger, it was crippled, drifting in space. It was a simple matter to board the vessel and rescue you. {Sighs} Unknown to me, however, the Sith were already on board. Just as we made the jump to hyperspace, they fired upon us, nearly destroying the Ebon Hawk.

 

Now how could she intercept the Harbinger if she was already on board the Ebon Hawk? The Ebon Hawk which was on board the Harbinger? It sounds to me like there was a third ship, one that Kreia used to board the Harbinger. She found the Exile and just used the Ebon Hawk to escape. Sion fired on the ship again, leaving it in the state we find it in the prologue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let me get this straight, you actually think she was on a fourth ship?

 

I mean, we have:

 

1. The Harbinger

2. Ebon Hawk

3. The sith warship

 

and then we also have

 

4. Kreia's ship ??

 

It's conjecture, but it could be. I mean, I'm not disputing or questioning your theory, I just want to be sure I understand it correctly.

 

In Ep. I Qui-Gon says "they constantly speak to us, telling us the will of the Force." Now if kreia could teach the Exile to merely "listen" to the midi chlorians in others... which is basically what she does in that first cutscene where we learn the passive precognition. The Exile says twice (once there and once later) that the Force feels different: "But it doesn't feel like it did... it feels like it is coming from across a great distance.  and No... it felt... different. Faint. Perhaps because it was coming from a source other than her/him, from Atton, from Kreia. This is why I don't agree with the Force leeching crap that the Council gives in you in the LS version of the Dantooine enclave. How can they presume to know about the Exile, when they never spent any time with her? When they never saw and felt what she did? Especially when others like Chodo Habat say the Exile can possibly be healed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They don't know, and Kreia is right to conclude that they act out of pure fear. It's precisely because they seek to just attack what they don't understand because they see it as a threat rather than attempt to understand and accept it, and then perhaps resolve it somehow, that she becomes so angry with them.

 

Kreia: "He has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance!"

 

I actually agree with Kreia there. She overreacts completely, but that doesn't mean that she is not right to point out their arrogance.

 

But I do think the Exile is a leech/siphon, since he usurps the force of others through the force bonds he creates with them. But that's not why the masters decide to cut him off from the force. They are far more afraid of his connection to the "new sith", which means Nihilus, but they don't know that. Note what they say:

 

"When we felt Katarr die, there is something we felt, something we'd felt once before. An echo in the Force.We'd felt it before when you stood before us. Whatever this threat, whatever this hunger is, it is something tied to you, something you have experienced directly. This echo travels in the places where death has walked, where planets have died. Massacres fuel its power, the death of life fuels it."

 

And a little later:

 

"The Sith are a threat, it is true. But the threat they present... it is tied to you in some way. The echo we have felt on the worlds we have walked - we have encountered it only once before, when you stood before us at your trial.We believe that somehow, you are creating this - or that the Sith have learned this technique from you."

 

That's what the masters fear, not merely that the Exile can use force powers through his bonds with others.

[Mellypie]

Let me get this straight, you actually think she was on a fourth ship?

 

I mean, we have:

 

1. The Harbinger

2. Ebon Hawk

3. The sith warship

 

and then we also have

 

4. Kreia's ship ??

 

It's conjecture, but it could be. I mean, I'm not disputing or questioning your theory, I just want to be sure I understand it correctly.

 

Yep.

 

It think actually, the Jedi's reaction to the Exile might a combination of both, the Exile's Force bonding and the Exile's supposed connect to the Sith.

 

One reason that I don't quite hold with the Force leech theory, at least for a LS Exile, is that her campanions don't get weaker they get stronger (if you want to throw game mechanics into it they level up too). If you were leeching the Force from someone don't you think they would get weaker? That they would look like the pit crew of Nihilus' ship, the Ravager? But they don't.

 

Another reason is that Vrook mentions them following the Exile blindly sometimes against their will, but the only one that seems to be following the Exile against their will is Atton (because Kreia's been blackmailing him) and even only partly so if the Exile is female. Mira follows because she secretly wants to be like the Exile (her speech when you train her to be a Jedi shows that). Bao follows because he knows the Exile and know she's out to set things right (and he was frustrated with how things were going on Telos). Visas follows the Exile because she knows that the Exile is the only one who can stop Nihilus and that Nihilus must be stopped. Mical follows because A) he knows the Exile, she trained him briefly on Dantooine and B) he himself is looking for Jedi. With Brianna I'm not quite certain I think that she initially came with the Exile because she wanted to know just what it was about the Exile that got Atris' shorts in such a twist, to find out if what Atris said about the Exile was true and because he was a real live Jedi (which is why I have a hard time seeing Brianna only following a male Exile.)

 

I tend to believe these reasons rather than the ones the Council give since they haven't really been around the Exile long enough to make any kind of fact based judgment.

 

With a DS Exile, however, it's a different story since I see her as just a weaker version of Nihilus.

[Sikon]

Kreia cannot be compared to Palpatine. They are both manipulative, but Palpatine is bent on taking over the galaxy, while Kreia is only interested in revenge against those who once cast her down, Jedi and Sith alike. Neither is Exile obsessed with saving the galaxy, for that matter. He's just trying to understand what's going on and what he is.

As I see it, Kreia is the "author surrogate", acting as the in-universe representative of Chris Avellone and saying things he wanted to say. The "there is no great revelation" line is definitely a pun on BioWare and the Revan plot twist. Even if Kreia had no other great lines, she would deserve a monument for this line alone.

[Hekate]

In Ep. I Qui-Gon says "they constantly speak to us, telling us the will of the Force." Now if kreia could teach the Exile to merely "listen" to the midi chlorians in others... which is basically what she does in that first cutscene where we learn the passive precognition. The Exile says twice (once there and once later) that the Force feels different: "But it doesn't feel like it did... it feels like it is coming from across a great distance.  and No... it felt... different. Faint. Perhaps because it was coming from a source other than her/him, from Atton, from Kreia. This is why I don't agree with the Force leeching crap that the Council gives in you in the LS version of the Dantooine enclave. How can they presume to know about the Exile, when they never spent any time with her? When they never saw and felt what she did? Especially when others like Chodo Habat say the Exile can possibly be healed.

 

Guess i'm just tryin'a understand how Exlie can hear the Force in others by listening to the midi-chlorians in others. The explanation for anyone to be able to even percieve the Force is because the midi-chlorians act like an organ. So if one can't see without eyes, than by extension, one can't feel the Force without midi-chlorians. One cannot use another person's eyes to see, so how does Exile use another's midi-chlorians to connect with the Force? Is it possible the midi-chlorian population in Exile would have to re-establish itself over a period of time thus explaining Exile's gradual reconnection with the Force? Meaning; Exile's midi-chlorians channel other people's midi-chlorians as a means of allowing Exile to use the Force through others since Exile doesn't have enough to do it on her/his own. The whole concept of how Exile siphons the Force from others was too poorly explained in the game. It leads to much confusion...

 

 

On the subject of the Jedi Council cuttin' Exile off from the Force... I don't think they acted out of fear nor ignorance. If it is an established truth that Exile is a wound in the Force, and that her/his mere existence is dangerous to the Force and as an extension, to all life, than s/he rightly should be severed from the Force. They took a wait and see approach with Exile after the war specifically because they did not understand fully, and acting then would have been acting out of fear. But 10 years later after experiencing how things connect back to Exile, they made an informed decission. Basically, Exile is the physical manifestation of the Force wound, just as Jediphile believes Nihilus is the manifestation of Exile's rejection of the DS. (i read the whole thread and loved it. Thanks for the link ) The logic of why they wouldn't kill her/him escapes me. In the LS ending, Malachor V gets destroyed to get rid of the power spot which, in essence, is eliminating the root of how the Jedi (et al) were so easily made to succumb to the dark side by Revan. If Exile's being a wound in the Force becomes dangerous when Exile uses the Force through resonnating and casting echoes in the Force, than it makes complete sense to cut Exile off from the Force. But if Exile's mere existence is the wound, as was clearly stated, wouldn't that than mean Exile, like Malachor V, should die? That is where the logic behind the whole plot falls apart for me. Surely, if Exile is a wound in the Force, than the Council should have known it. By the Council wanting to cut her/him off from the Force it implies Exile channeling the Force is what causes the resonnace to occur. Is Exile the wound in the Force, or is the wound in the Force just something that happened due to Exile cutting her/himself off from the Force and is independant of what Exile does as of the point of its creation? Or is the wound both in Exile and a separate entity?

 

 

One reason that I don't quite hold with the Force leech theory, at least for a LS Exile, is that her campanions don't get weaker they get stronger (if you want to throw game mechanics into it they level up too).  If you were leeching the Force from someone don't you think they would get weaker? That they would look like the pit crew of Nihilus' ship, the Ravager? But they don't.

 

Exactly. But the bigger picture theory may be that it idoesn't really matter how Exile siphon's the Force nor from whom, the echoes are cast regardless. So why doesn't it affect those s/he siphons the Force from? It could be they are "immune" because of the Force bonding s/he has with them but the echoes are cast anyway beyond Exile's range, thus Exile doesn't witness its effects and is unaware of it.

 

ADDITION: An intersting point is we, the players, don't actually know what happened to Exile after Kreia was killed/died. It is possible, depending on if Exile felt the Force through Kreia alone and not Exile's companions, that Exile could no longer use the Force. Which would lend credence to the possibility Exile isn't actually a Force leech/siphon.

 

Another reason is that Vrook mentions them following the Exile blindly sometimes against their will, but the only one that seems to be following the Exile against their will is Atton (because Kreia's been blackmailing him) and even only partly so if the Exile is female. Mira follows because she secretly wants to be like the Exile (her speech when you train her to be a Jedi shows that). Bao follows because he knows the Exile and know she's out to set things right (and he was frustrated with how things were going on Telos). Visas follows the Exile because she knows that the Exile is the only one who can stop Nihilus and that Nihilus must be stopped. Mical follows because A) he knows the Exile, she trained him briefly on Dantooine and B) he himself is looking for Jedi. With Brianna I'm not quite certain I think that she initially came with the Exile because she wanted to know just what it was about the Exile that got Atris' shorts in such a twist, to find out if what Atris said about the Exile was true and because he was a real live Jedi (which is why I have a hard time seeing Brianna only following a male Exile.)

 

IMO Vrook was implying not that they follow Exile against their will, as in accompanying her/him when they don't want to (Kreia took care of that ), rather their behaviour and choices began to alter (hence such easy alignment shifts even against their true personalities and ethics) because of Exile Force-bonding with them. Exile, unaware of it, overpowers them, overwhelms them, and they do things, think and feel things, they normally wouldn't. Mira says she doesn't like how killing has become so instinctive and easy when she is with Exile. Atton doesn't understand why he wants to protect her/him.

 

As far as Handmaiden goes, i wonder if it was in with the cut content regarding Atris to explain why Handmaiden went along with Exile. Brianna says she is following Atris' orders by going along with Exile and them. She also says it is the most difficult order Atris ever gave her (i believe it was among her private thoughts when Exile is learning how to listen to surface thoughts). Then back at Atris' Telos base, Atris flips out at Brianna asking her things such as (paraphrasing) "Was it my order for you to touch him, to long for him" or something similar. It seems Atris ordered Brianna to stowe away.

Edited April 23, 2006 by Hekate

[Elven6]

If you noticed Kotor 1 was a rip of the movies

[Mellypie]

Guess i'm just tryin'a understand how Exlie can hear the Force in others by listening to the midi-chlorians in others.

Perhaps the midi chlorians have always been trying to speak to the Exile and Kreia just taught the Exile how to listen for it again.

 

It is also possible that what Vrook said was true, that the Exile was just deafened to the Force, but not completely severed from it. If the "noise" of Malachor was causing her to not be able to hear the Force in herself (and for others to not hear the Force in her) then Kreia could teach her to hear the Force past the "noise" or hear the Force in others. Hence the constant dialog options I mentioned before. And anything is possible with the Force. **shrug**

 

IMO Vrook was implying not that they follow Exile against their will, as in accompanying her/him when they don't want to (Kreia took care of that  ), rather their behaviour and choices began to alter (hence such easy alignment shifts even against their true personalities and ethics) because of Exile Force-bonding with them. Exile, unaware of it, overpowers them, overwhelms them, and they do things, think and feel things, they normally wouldn't. Mira says she doesn't like how killing has become so instinctive and easy when she is with Exile. Atton doesn't understand why he wants to protect her/him.

Ah, but even if you get them lightside or darkside (with the exception of Atton) you still lose influence with them if you do something they don't agree with. Example: I turn Visas LS. I take her to Onderon. We're in the cantina and Colonel Tobin and Vaklu's troops attack. Visas says it would be a good chance to "cleanse" the place of life. I tell her to rein it in and keep her lightsaber to Vaklu's troops only. She does what I tell her, yes, but I lose influence.

 

Oh, and it's easy to see why Atton wants to protect F!Exile. Because, whether he admits it or not, he loves her.

 

I think, perhaps, the Jedi (especially Vrook) were always a little too quick to blame the loyalty of the Exile's friends on her Force bonds (even before the wars) rather than a friendly personality. In the holo on Dantooine Vrooks says: "whatever the other Padawans see her do, they are quick to do the same... other students dislike her intensely!" That sounds like what happens with any popular student. I'm sure they thought the same thing about Revan. Surely s/he was popular and the other students wanted to be like him/her and I'm sure there were others that didn't like him/her at all, too. But no it's the Force bonds.

 

I still think that the Jedi could not properly judge what had happened to the Exile when they didn't travel with her (and experience the effects first hand) and didn't spend any time studying the Exile and her condition.

[DeathScepter]

it is the echoes of the Exile is what makes His allies stronger.

 

More the Exile kills, the more force energy he absorbs.

 

 

Thrust echos it out. When he force bonded to someone, and they feel the echoes of the force energy. Their force abilities goes on overload and becomes wounds in the force like the Exile

 

 

The Echoes become a ripple effect in which The Jedi Masters fear.

 

The Ripple effect is what Kreia wants and the Jedi Masters hates.

 

Nihilus has the same wound/echoe like the Exile.

 

 

Instead of fearing it or being navie about it, Nihilus embaces this wound and the Sith way of Power with all of his dark heart.

 

 

 

Dark Side Corruption(Sith Lord's feat) is the ulimate DS techique which He uses.

[Jediphile]

it is the echoes of the Exile is what makes His allies stronger.

 

More the Exile kills, the more force energy he absorbs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes.

 

Thrust echos it out. When he force bonded to someone, and they feel the echoes of the force energy. Their force abilities goes on overload and becomes  wounds in the force like the Exile

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That doesn't add up. If that were true, then the masters would have to cut off his companions from the force as well, and they never even describe that as a problem even though they are apparently fully aware how the Exile forms such bonds with others.

 

The Echoes become a ripple effect in which The Jedi Masters fear.

 

The Ripple effect is what Kreia wants and the Jedi Masters hates.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes.

 

Nihilus has the same wound/echoe like the Exile.

 

Instead of fearing it or being navie about it, Nihilus embaces this wound and the Sith way of Power with all of his dark heart.

 

Dark Side Corruption(Sith Lord's feat)  is the ulimate DS techique which He uses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, I don't think so. Nihilus doesn't form bonds with others as the Exile does, and he doesn't seem to be cut off from the force as the Exile is. He has a similar ability, but he is a true force leech unlike the Exile who is more of a siphon and a bit of a leech. Also, Nihilus has little or no control over his abilities - he reacts instinctively and drains all around him to quench his endless hunger for the force, an attempt that is futile because he can never get enough.

 

Kreia: "And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts."

 

"Power? Do you think so? You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

[DeathScepter]

they will turn to a normal force sensetive.

 

 

 

 

Like that purses power or money, they can never have too much money or power. Nihilus is the same way with his power to the point it is an addicition.

 

 

 

Nihilus could have a force bond in the Exile has because his relationship with Visas.

 

Nihilus and Visas relationship parrallels Kreia and the Exile relationship in the sense both "couples" are force bonded to their mates.

[Sikon]

First of all, ditch the midichlorian theory. It is unclear how true to the nature of the Force it is. At least I don't think Obsidian seriously considered it.

What I don't understand is why people can't accept that Exile's connection to the Force just healed itself?

Let me use a real-life analogy. You can see, like all normal people do. One day, you are exposed to a blinding flash - so bright that you lose sight for a long time. However, over time your eyes get healed, and your sight returns - gradually.

Is it somehow a "cheat"? Do you sense photons in a way different from others? No. Do you see through others' eyes? Perhaps your brain learned to communicate with others' optical nerves? Nonsense.

However, you have learned to exist without sight, which you previously considered vital to your life. If such an accident happens once again, you will be less hesitant to accept it.

This is what happened to Exile. The idea of KOTOR II is that not the Force makes one strong, but the readiness to separate oneself from it. Exile, once a Force-sensitive, gave it away when others couldn't - and died. They learned to exist without a connection to the Force. This, not any strangeness in his newfound connection to the Force, is what the galaxy was not prepared to accept.

Considering the nature of their Force bonds, I have said it before, and I will say it again: the Council was mistaken in their assumption that Exile's Force bonds held any danger. In other words, I stand by Mical and Visas' position. And given that even non-Force-sensitives, like Canderous and the droids, readily followed Exile, it seems to me that being a leader the way Exile was is something more complicated than just being fluent in the Force.