KOTOR 2 purposely making fun of Lucas's ideas?

[Xizor_Vader]

Famous Yoda quote, appears over and over, and was even quoted by my english teacher:

 

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

 

Arguably the most "profound" sentence in all of Star Wars, but Kreia would basically say that's all donkey plop:

 

"There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you."

 

So what is up with that? KOTOR 2 bashes the beloved jedi image over and over again. The jedi are just a bunch of out-of-touch, "arrogant" whimps. Kreia just makes Yoda look like a big old fuddy-duddy.

 

I first noticed this contradiction to the image of the jedi in the first KOTOR. If talk to Bindo a lot, he starts to tell you that jedi aren't always right, and that oftentimes they're just wrong and don't want to admit it. Then he told this cute little story about an old jedi master that was going blind and had too much pride to admit that his eyes were failing him.

 

But KOTOR 2 takes it over the edge and then some. The jedi are obviously wrong about a lot of major things (ie wanted to detach the exile from the force even if it was obvious, at least for a LS player, that he would save the galaxy) and I was more then GLAD when they got shut up by Kreia.

 

I almost feel like someone's making fun of Lucas's ideas of mysticism and the Force and all that. As many of you agree, the KOTOR series seems to have that special Star Wars magic that the prequal movies unfortunately lacked. It might just be a coincidence, but it's almost like SOMEONE's trying to take a stab at Lucas for making those 3 horrible episodes.

 

Any thoughts?

[DAWUSS]

I don't know if they were necessarily making FUN of Lucas's ideas, but I think they also set them to a new light, one we don't like

[Jediphile]

So what is up with that? KOTOR 2 bashes the beloved jedi image over and over again. The jedi are just a bunch of out-of-touch, "arrogant" whimps. Kreia just makes Yoda look like a big old fuddy-duddy.

 

I first noticed this contradiction to the image of the jedi in the first KOTOR. If talk to Bindo a lot, he starts to tell you that jedi aren't always right, and that oftentimes they're just wrong and don't want to admit it. Then he told this cute little story about an old jedi master that was going blind and had too much pride to admit that his eyes were failing him.

 

But KOTOR 2 takes it over the edge and then some. The jedi are obviously wrong about a lot of major things (ie wanted to detach the exile from the force even if it was obvious, at least for a LS player, that he would save the galaxy) and I was more then GLAD when they got shut up by Kreia.

 

I almost feel like someone's making fun of Lucas's ideas of mysticism and the Force and all that. As many of you agree, the KOTOR series seems to have that special Star Wars magic that the prequal movies unfortunately lacked. It might just be a coincidence, but it's almost like SOMEONE's trying to take a stab at Lucas for making those 3 horrible episodes.

 

Any thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you're forgotting another famous Star Wars quote by another famous jedi master: "Many of the truths that we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view..."

 

In short, don't forget that Kreia has a very different perspective on things, and she *hates* the force with a vengeance! So it's quite natural that she is not going to be spouting the same pro-force "propaganda" that Yoda or Obi-Wan do.

 

That does not mean that the devs are making fun of Lucas' ideas, however. It just means that they are expanding upon them, exploring the depths of the force, which is more than relevant in a game about jedi knights.

 

And Kreia is a different character, because while she is as sly and manipulative as Palpatine, she has an entirely different goal. Palpatine/Sidious merely wanted to take over power in the galaxy, rule the republic, and destroy the jedi - your basic power-hungry megalomaniac and evil overlord. Kreia, however, is at war with god just as Ahab was - note her comments about how she hates the will of the force that seems to dictate a destiny for everyone - and she wants to destroy the force as a consequence, even at the cost of her own life (which she does sacrifice at the end, because the exile can harm the force itself where she cannot). Palpatine would *never* have done that!

[foxdez]

Famous Yoda quote, appears over and over, and was even quoted by my english teacher:

 

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

 

Arguably the most "profound" sentence in all of Star Wars, but Kreia would basically say that's all donkey plop:

 

"There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you."

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought that line from kriea was a stab at Bioware and the whole Revan plot twist. Bioware uses the plot twist in their story for almost all there games.

[Xizor_Vader]

Ok, ok, I was wrong in quoting something from the old SW films. Try finding something intelligent in the pre ep 4 films... you can't. Seems like KOTOR took over with the quotable quotes department of the SW universe.

 

And about Kreia: No one said I didn't like her views. I actually find them much more practical and down to earth then the spiritual rantings of yoda.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Xizor_Vader

[Hekate]

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

 

Arguably the most "profound" sentence in all of Star Wars, but Kreia would basically say that's all donkey plop:

 

"There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you."

 

IIRC, she said that when Exile asks her why she chose Exile specifically as opposed to a different Jedi. so that would put the whole meaning into a very different context. But if it is applied in the broader sense as you have, i'd say Kreia making that statement isn't just about how Yoda's (and by the extention, the Jedi teachings) view is donkey plop but how what she believed is donkey plop too. In essence, that would be her realizing the whole "the Force has a will of its own and it imposes that will onto all which is refered to as destiny" just *is* (ie: causality), and attempting to put an end to that balancing force within the Force is an exercise in futility.

 

So what is up with that? KOTOR 2 bashes the beloved jedi image over and over again. The jedi are just a bunch of out-of-touch, "arrogant" whimps. Kreia just makes Yoda look like a big old fuddy-duddy.

 

Think it has to do with the reoccuring theme of rebirth from destruction the Jedi and Sith (Republic too for that matter. It's been on the brink of destruction for 30 years since KotoR II's end) have to go through.

 

 

 

I first noticed this contradiction to the image of the jedi in the first KOTOR. If talk to Bindo a lot, he starts to tell you that jedi aren't always right, and that oftentimes they're just wrong and don't want to admit it. Then he told this cute little story about an old jedi master that was going blind and had too much pride to admit that his eyes were failing him.

 

Perhaps it adds the element of falibility and humanity (in the broad sense) in the context of the individual Jedi in contrast to the Jedi Code.

 

But KOTOR 2 takes it over the edge and then some. The jedi are obviously wrong about a lot of major things (ie wanted to detach the exile from the force even if it was obvious, at least for a LS player, that he would save the galaxy) and I was more then GLAD when they got shut up by Kreia.

 

I wonder if Exile actually did save the galaxy. If what they (and Kreia & Visas) said about Exile is true about her/him being a wound in the Force that harms the Force, than Exile existing with her/his Force connection intact would indeed put the galaxy into danger. The echoes and all that that he specifically causes continually grow and expand and touch others due to his bonding and connecting... It did sate Exile is more of a siphon (like the cave krystals) rather than a Nihilous-like leech, but there is also the contradictory notion the Sith assassins and the new Sith Lords were created by Exile (which i don't understand at all. I thought it was the the consequences of the act of imploding Malachor V that affected Force sensitives and warped them into these Force leeches ) S/he did kill Nihilous though, so Exile did save the galaxy - or maybe one could say Kreia saved the galaxy by masterminding events leading to Nihilous' destruction

 

It might just be a coincidence, but it's almost like SOMEONE's trying to take a stab at Lucas for making those 3 horrible episodes.

 

Wouldn't that just be sweet, doin' that in a Lucas Empire product...

 

I think you're forgotting another famous Star Wars quote by another famous jedi master: "Many of the truths that we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view..." 

 

And on plot clarity "

 

In short, don't forget that Kreia has a very different perspective on things, and she *hates* the force with a vengeance! So it's quite natural that she is not going to be spouting the same pro-force "propaganda" that Yoda or Obi-Wan do.

 

Isn't the Sith philosophy pro-Force propaganda too? :ph34r: But i thought hating the Force is like hating that there is, well.. uh, anything in existence other than the vacuum of space.

 

And Kreia is a different character, because while she is as sly and manipulative as Palpatine, she has an entirely different goal. Palpatine/Sidious merely wanted to take over power in the galaxy, rule the republic, and destroy the jedi - your basic power-hungry megalomaniac and evil overlord. Kreia, however, is at war with god just as Ahab was - note her comments about how she hates the will of the force that seems to dictate a destiny for everyone - and she wants to destroy the force as a consequence, even at the cost of her own life (which she does sacrifice at the end, because the exile can harm the force itself where she cannot). Palpatine would *never* have done that!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That isn't how i understood what Kreia was after since the question of why would she actively fight Nihilous and prevent him from consuming everything since the death of the Force is the same thing: no Force=no life? It confused me how it was writen in the game; that "death to all" vs. "prevent death to all" paradox in Kreia's philosophy, which is further emphasized with her showing the way to Revan (to fight the "true" Sith) but also then willingly dying (LS Exile) which prevents her from being able to show others, and all that. Mayhap that is the state of opposition Kreia is made to live in since she is betrayal?

 

 

Ok, ok, I was wrong in quoting something from the old SW films. Try finding something intelligent in the pre ep 4 films... you can't. Seems like KOTOR took over with the quotable quotes department of the SW universe.

 

Oo, especially in 2 with that Padme in the the smelter thing... worst...episode...ever (nod to Xard)

[Jediphile]

Ok, ok, I was wrong in quoting something from the old SW films. Try finding something intelligent in the pre ep 4 films... you can't. Seems like KOTOR took over with the quotable quotes department of the SW universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Be mindful of the living force, young padawan"

 

"There is no civility, only politics."

 

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

 

"Mmm. Lost a planet, Master Obi-Wan has. How embarrassing. How embarrassing..."

 

"Don't forget, she's a politician, and they're *not* to be trusted."

 

"The day we stop believing democracy can work is the day we lose it."

 

"I love democracy... I love the republic..."

 

"Twice the pride, double the fall."

 

"What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?"

 

"Hmm. To a dark place this line of thought will take us. Great care we must take."

 

"Not to worry. We're still flying half a ship..."

 

"All who gain power are afraid to lose it."

 

"At an end your rule is. And not short enough it was. If so powerful you are, why leave? "

 

"The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

 

"So this is how liberty dies - with thunderous applause..."

 

"Into exile I must go. Failed, I have..."

 

"You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy."

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

 

Sorry, but no. Popular though it may be to slash the prequels, they are not quite that useless IMHO.

[Jediphile]

It did sate Exile is more of a siphon (like the cave krystals) rather than a Nihilous-like leech, but there is also the contradictory notion the Sith assassins and the new Sith Lords were created by Exile (which i don't understand at all. I thought it was the the consequences of the act of imploding Malachor V that affected Force sensitives and warped them into these Force leeches )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Don't forget that the sith have been hunting the jedi from the shadows, so the masters know nothing about who these sith are. The most they know is that they attacked Katarr and destroyed all life there (but one). Naturally this was Nihilus, but the masters don't know that - they only know that the power that destroyed Katarr was somehow related to the Exile, since they felt the same thing in the force when they judged him/her. That's the connection between the exile and the "Sith" - a connection between the exile and Nihilus, which still hasn't been fully revealed, and which I suspect may be unveiled in K3.

 

That isn't how i understood what Kreia was after since the question of why would she actively fight Nihilous and prevent him from consuming everything since the death of the Force is the same thing: no Force=no life?    It confused me how it was writen in the game; that "death to all" vs. "prevent death to all" paradox in Kreia's philosophy, which is further emphasized with her showing the way to Revan (to fight the "true" Sith) but also then willingly dying (LS Exile) which prevents her from being able to show others, and all that. Mayhap that is the state of opposition Kreia is made to live in since she is betrayal?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kreia doesn't equal the force with all life. Note how she respects the skills of common people and berate the jedi (when she speaks with Atton while the Exile is sleeping on Citadel Station over Telos) for being helpless without the force. Is she correct? We don't know, but she hates the force enough to want to kill it even it has consequences for all life.

 

Personally, I think her relation with the Sith was in no small part due to Nihilus' ability to wound the force, which Kreia probably also intended to control. When Nihilus and Sion then cast her out, she instead found the only other person who could wound the force - the Exile - and then used him both to harm the force and to take revenge on her enemies (the jedi masters and her defiant sith apprentices).

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

Kreia has very different views... and a different point of view makes all the difference. Kreia should be compared to palpatine, not yoda.... i think.

[Xard]

Oo, especially in 2 with that Padme in the the smelter thing... worst...episode...ever (nod to Xard) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wasn't going to say anything in this topic, but...WTF?

[Hekate]

Sorry, but no. Popular though it may be to slash the prequels, they are not quite that useless IMHO.

 

Not saying there isn't anything at all of value in SW I-III. Crazy as it may sound (hate mail abounds ), i didn't find The Phantom Menace all that bad. Well, minus the really bad directing of the child actors, and those uber-irritating Disneyesque and completely in the wrong film pod race announcers <_< , and a few other things... The Clone Wars had Padme perfectly ok with Anakin having just butchered an entire village of Sand People (coincidentally, doing the same in KotOR didn't give any DS points... ) yet she is supposed to have been a social activist. One among other inconsistencies in the film. The third i barely remember; all i recall is wondering why Anakin and Obi-Wan didn't get a little "crispy" (yay Bao-Dur!) when fighting centimetres away from lava. Also questioning why none of the trilogy answered what happened to Anakin to bring him to the threshold of being able to be corrupted. He began as a concienscious and selfless (said by his mom and Qui Gong seemed to agree), if mouthy kid who suddenly became an arrogant punk padawan. I was left thinking "what did the Jedi do to him to make him become like that?" I think people speak ill of those movies since no matter how much CG nor how many action sequences (Padme in a pot) are put into them in order to cover for its failings, a poorly told story will be found lacking.

 

It did sate Exile is more of a siphon (like the cave krystals) rather than a Nihilous-like leech, but there is also the contradictory notion the Sith assassins and the new Sith Lords were created by Exile (which i don't understand at all. I thought it was the the consequences of the act of imploding Malachor V that affected Force sensitives and warped them into these Force leeches )

 

Don't forget that the sith have been hunting the jedi from the shadows, so the masters know nothing about who these sith are. The most they know is that they attacked Katarr and destroyed all life there (but one). Naturally this was Nihilus, but the masters don't know that - they only know that the power that destroyed Katarr was somehow related to the Exile, since they felt the same thing in the force when they judged him/her. That's the connection between the exile and the "Sith" - a connection between the exile and Nihilus, which still hasn't been fully revealed, and which I suspect may be unveiled in K3.

 

Didn't Kreia say she saw the death of the Force in Exile? How would that work if Exile was just a siphon? Didn't she also say the Jedi Council was saying the truth when they spoke of Exile getting her/his power from draining the Force from others and that s/he is the same type of Force leech Nihilous was? My plot-hole sense is tingling

 

That isn't how i understood what Kreia was after since the question of why would she actively fight Nihilous and prevent him from consuming everything since the death of the Force is the same thing: no Force=no life?    It confused me how it was writen in the game; that "death to all" vs. "prevent death to all" paradox in Kreia's philosophy, which is further emphasized with her showing the way to Revan (to fight the "true" Sith) but also then willingly dying (LS Exile) which prevents her from being able to show others, and all that. Mayhap that is the state of opposition Kreia is made to live in since she is betrayal?

 

Kreia doesn't equal the force with all life. Note how she respects the skills of common people and berate the jedi (when she speaks with Atton while the Exile is sleeping on Citadel Station over Telos) for being helpless without the force. Is she correct? We don't know, but she hates the force enough to want to kill it even it has consequences for all life.

 

Personally, I think her relation with the Sith was in no small part due to Nihilus' ability to wound the force, which Kreia probably also intended to control. When Nihilus and Sion then cast her out, she instead found the only other person who could wound the force - the Exile - and then used him both to harm the force and to take revenge on her enemies (the jedi masters and her defiant sith apprentices).

 

I'm confused still. In killing the Force, she would be killing all life. So why not just let Nihilous do it? Isn't that ultimately what Exile would be doing anyway? (Not asking as if you should have the all the answers. Just curious about your thoughts/opinions) Why would she care she was cast down from her mantle of Sith Lord if what she wants is going to happen anyway? When she drained all the Force from the Jedi Masters, they died. It even said worse than death, they were like an absence of Force. That is Exile's power - according to Kreia and the council. A hole in the Force, and in order for Exile to use the Force, s/he has got to drain other's Force "left overs", hence the siphon explanation. Is Exile a siphon or a leech?

[Hekate]

Oo, especially in 2 with that Padme in the the smelter thing... worst...episode...ever (nod to Xard) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wasn't going to say anything in this topic, but...WTF?

 

Don't know how to add a new quote to an existing post with "edit" so, sorry for the double post. Now to explain:

 

I was making an obscure reference to what i think is one of the funniest lines your avatar (comic shop owner of the Simpsons) says " worst... episode... ever..." in a pained voice during a particularily bad episode of The Simpsons. Wasn't saying anything about your opinion on the prequels or any such things. I just like your avatar.

Edited April 20, 2006 by Hekate

[Xard]

Oo, especially in 2 with that Padme in the the smelter thing... worst...episode...ever (nod to Xard) 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wasn't going to say anything in this topic, but...WTF?

 

Don't know how to add a new quote to an existing post with "edit" so, sorry for the double post. Now to explain:

 

I was making an obscure reference to what i think is one of the funniest lines your avatar (comic shop owner of the Simpsons) says " worst... episode... ever..." in a pained voice during a particularily bad episode of The Simpsons. Wasn't saying anything about your opinion on the prequels or any such things. I just like your avatar.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh yeah, you mean that thing! :D Yeah, this is quite good IMO. I just started to think that have I said something in somewhere. more posts you have, harder to remember all of 'em. And here I have only some 300.

[Jediphile]

Not saying there isn't anything at all of value in SW I-III. Crazy as it may sound (hate mail abounds  ), i didn't find The Phantom Menace all that bad. Well, minus the really bad directing of the child actors, and those uber-irritating Disneyesque and completely in the wrong film pod race announcers  <_<  , and a few other things...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, if you make Anakin about five years older and cut any and all gungans from the movie completely, then Ep. I doesn't seem so bad anymore. I'd have replaced Naboo with Alderaan as well...

 

The biggest problem with the actual plot is that it's just a bit boring.

 

Also questioning why none of the trilogy answered what happened to Anakin to bring him to the threshold of being able to be corrupted. He began as a concienscious and selfless (said by his mom and Qui Gong seemed to agree), if mouthy kid who suddenly became an arrogant punk padawan. I was left thinking "what did the Jedi do to him to make him become like that?"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

A big part of the problem is that you just don't buy sweet little Ani in Ep. I as the boy who will be Darth Vader one day... And Hayden Christensen's acting is just awful

 

I got the distinct impression that he had already fallen by the time Ep. II began, and I hadn't been allowed to see it. He just hadn't fallen very far yet.

 

I think people speak ill of those movies since no matter how much CG nor how many action sequences (Padme in a pot) are put into them in order to cover for its failings, a poorly told story will be found lacking.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but I never found the plots to be that problematic. It's the other things that surround the plot that was annoying to me. Why, oh why, did we have to have JarJar in there? :angry:

 

Didn't Kreia say she saw the death of the Force in Exile? How would that work if Exile was just a siphon?    Didn't she also say the Jedi Council was saying the truth when they spoke of Exile getting her/his power from draining the Force from others and that s/he is the same type of Force leech Nihilous was?    My plot-hole sense is tingling 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Exile has the power to the deny the will of the force. He was destined by the will of the force to fall to the dark side at the battle of Malachor V. But he didn't. He resisted that will, and he did so by severing himself completely from the force. That's why he lost his contact to it, not because (as he mistakenly thinks) the masters cut him off from the force, but because he did so himself. We never see him regain his ties during the game. He has access to the force only through the force bonds he can form with others and then siphon to himself through that connection - his own connection is lost and remains so throughout K2 (or so it seems). That's his similarity to Nihilus - they can both drain force from other force sensitives, and particularly jedi of course.

 

I'm confused still. In killing the Force, she would be killing all life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would she? I don't know, and I'm not sure Kreia does either. But I do agree that she hates the force enough to take that risk.

 

So why not just let Nihilous do it? Isn't that ultimately what Exile would be doing anyway? (Not asking as if you should have the all the answers. Just curious about your thoughts/opinions)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is probably precisely what she intended with Nihilus, but he rebelled against her. And Nihilus does not seem to have the same sort of control over his power as the Exile does. Note how Kreia describes Nihilus - and especially his ability to devour worlds - to the Exile....

 

Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

{Quietly}"Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts."

 

{Chiding}"Power? Do you think so?{Shakes head}You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

 

 

Hmmm, this seems to be heading towards my personal Exile/Nihilus theory, which will probably really confuse Hekate...

 

 

Why would she care she was cast down from her mantle of Sith Lord if what she wants is going to happen anyway? When she drained all the Force from the Jedi Masters, they died. It even said worse than death, they were like an absence of Force. That is Exile's power - according to Kreia and the council. A hole in the Force, and in order for Exile to use the Force, s/he has got to drain other's Force "left overs", hence the siphon explanation.    Is Exile a siphon or a leech?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

He is a bit of both, but probably more the former, if you ask me. Note that if the Exile is DS, he still cannot simply kill the masters by draining them (until after they're dead, at least...)

 

As for Kreia's motives, she's a vengeful old bat! She may have cast down the mantle of the Sith herself at one point, but that doesn't mean she likes being thrown out by her apprentices. She doesn't like the jedi, but she still wants them to accept the truth of her own teachings. Note that it's only when they refuse to see the truth she brings them that she steps in to bring them down, though she could clearly have killed them at any point. Much as she hates the jedi code, she clearly respects the jedi more than the sith in some ways, because she at least has some hope that the jedi might see her side of things, whereas Nihilus and Sion are clearly just to be punished for their unbecoming insolence...

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

kreia was sure, after seeing the exile, that if the force died, not all life would be destroyed. exile was left without it so she thought the galaxy could as well.

[Darth Sion:P]

Nihilous was a force user, he fed on the force by using an old sith tecniuqe as kreia called it, ergo he consumes the force he dosn't destroy it. he is not a hole in the force mearly somone that has become addicted to it and consumes it to satisfy his hunger.

Edited April 20, 2006 by Darth Sion:P

[WILL THE ALMIGHTY]

But kreia wanted to destroy the force using echos, not nihilus.

[Darth Sion:P]

that's exactly what im saying and my previus statment is why i belive she woulden't use nihilus.

[Hekate]

Jediphile has very big brain. It takes Hekate very long time to understand what very complex ideas Jediphile is making. Need very much patience and very hard thinking

 

A big part of the problem is that you just don't buy sweet little Ani in Ep. I as the boy who will be Darth Vader one day... And Hayden Christensen's acting is just awful

 

Yes! Very bad directing of childrens' roles. Actually, i found most of the directing to be... lacking. Not that i could do any better though

 

I got the distinct impression that he had already fallen by the time Ep. II began, and I hadn't been allowed to see it. He just hadn't fallen very far yet.

 

I thought so too. He seemed way too arrogant and overconfident to have been able to be into the whole "passionless serenity" thing. But why, oh why, did the Jedi Council not do anything significant about it? That seems to be a repetition of a theme with SW. The Force users (Jedi/Sith) are maybe made to be too powerful which forces them to come to lean too deeply into the stupid side of the Force in order to allow for plot. *cough - Jedi Council if Revan is already DS when meeting them first time in KotOR (I) - cough* Guess the DS of Revan made it difficult for the Jedi Masters to see

 

Didn't Kreia say she saw the death of the Force in Exile? How would that work if Exile was just a siphon?    Didn't she also say the Jedi Council was saying the truth when they spoke of Exile getting her/his power from draining the Force from others and that s/he is the same type of Force leech Nihilous was?    My plot-hole sense is tingling 

 

The Exile has the power to the deny the will of the force. He was destined by the will of the force to fall to the dark side at the battle of Malachor V. But he didn't.

 

I thought the effect of letting out the death screams/emptiness echoes which affected those at Malachor V created the siphons and Force leechers/feeders due to a cause and effect occurence. I didn't think the Force had much direct involvement with that; it just happens. Kinda like if you fall out of a tree, you get hurt. I had no clue the Force would will Exile to become DS.

 

He resisted that will, and he did so by severing himself completely from the force. That's why he lost his contact to it, not because (as he mistakenly thinks) the masters cut him off from the force, but because he did so himself.

 

Yeah, he sub-consciously responded to the "Force attack" by severing himself from the Force. So now the question of "how did that not kill him?" begs to be asked. But i think it isn't that he drained himself of the Force, he just closed the door to it. So the Force, ie: the energy of all living things, etc... is still part of him. But the flaw with that logic is if that were true, than howcome they all say they feel as if he is an absence of the Force? So either being without the Force doesn't kill you if you "make the fortitude roll' type of deal which the Masters and everyone at Malachor V failed, or the whole "the Force is everything" concept is actually false.

 

Oh, and wouldn't he have noticed right away when it happened that he has lost his Force connection? Someone else actually posted that earlier (don't remember who nor where): that it was Kreia who first suggested that idea to Exile. S/he hadn't thought of that her/himself prior to that.

 

We never see him regain his ties during the game. He has access to the force only through the force bonds he can form with others and then siphon to himself through that connection - his own connection is lost and remains so throughout K2 (or so it seems). That's his similarity to Nihilus - they can both drain force from other force sensitives, and particularly jedi of course.

 

And someone else asked the exact same question i'm about to ask now (again, no recollection of who nor where): if s/he was completely cut off from the Force, than how does the Exile create Force bonds? Or is it that they naturally occur as a type of resonance from the other person and Exile's attunement to that aspect of the Force opened the door to allow that.

 

That is probably precisely what she intended with Nihilus, but he rebelled against her. And Nihilus does not seem to have the same sort of control over his power as the Exile does. Note how Kreia describes Nihilus - and especially his ability to devour worlds - to the Exile....

 

Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

{Quietly}"Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts."

 

{Chiding}"Power? Do you think so?{Shakes head}You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

 

I think Kreia didn't at all want the death of the Force. She wanted to end the Force's ability to control people's destiny's. (Although the will of the Force could be the reason SW I-III's Jedi Council practiced the stupid side of the Force.. they had no choice in the matter since the Force was controlling their destinies. ) I think she was a lot more benevolent than evil (albeit in a twisted way involving much murder and mayhem )

 

Hmmm, this seems to be heading towards my personal Exile/Nihilus theory, which will probably really confuse Hekate... 

 

"I am slain." :'( Exuent with flourish.

 

Why would she care she was cast down from her mantle of Sith Lord if what she wants is going to happen anyway? When she drained all the Force from the Jedi Masters, they died. It even said worse than death, they were like an absence of Force. That is Exile's power - according to Kreia and the council. A hole in the Force, and in order for Exile to use the Force, s/he has got to drain other's Force "left overs", hence the siphon explanation.    Is Exile a siphon or a leech?

 

He is a bit of both, but probably more the former, if you ask me. Note that if the Exile is DS, he still cannot simply kill the masters by draining them (until after they're dead, at least...)

 

But the post-mortem draining occurs through his natural instincts, refering directly to the stuff Kreia was talking about. He can only do that because of "The Malachor V Effect" (to coin a phrase), which means he is a leech. And more confusion ensued

 

too long, continued in next slot

Edited April 20, 2006 by Hekate

[Hekate]

She doesn't like the jedi, but she still wants them to accept the truth of her own teachings.

 

I've been wondering this since i heard her make that comment the first time i played through; what exactly are her teachings?

 

Much as she hates the jedi code, she clearly respects the jedi more than the sith in some ways, because she at least has some hope that the jedi might see her side of things, whereas Nihilus and Sion are clearly just to be punished for their unbecoming insolence...

 

I'd say (not to be argumentative, i really do) she most definitely respects the Jedi more than the Sith. During a conversation with her and Exile is dark side, she comments on how the DS cannot lead to the higher mysteries and things along that line.

 

And here i thought she wanted to put an end to Nihilous and Sion because if their power was left unchecked, it would destroy the galaxy.

 

"

 

Will put effort into pairing things down henceforth. My appologies.

Edited April 20, 2006 by Hekate

[Jediphile]

Jediphile has very big brain. It takes Hekate very long time to understand what very complex ideas Jediphile is making. Need very much patience and very hard thinking 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I thought the effect of letting out the death screams/emptiness echoes which affected those at Malachor V created the siphons and Force leechers/feeders due to a cause and effect occurence. I didn't think the Force had much direct involvement with that; it just happens. Kinda like if you fall out of a tree, you get hurt. I had no clue the Force would will Exile to become DS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, let's listen to the wisdom (!) of HK-47 of all people...

 

HK-47: "That is why Revan felt that Malachor V was so important. It was intended to be a conversion tool. Assessment: When faced with a continuous series of hard-fought battles, I detected a significant statistical increase in Jedi following Revan over the Jedi Code - a compromise in principles brought about by battlefield conditions.The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army. But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion. Surely the loss of your troops and the Jedi who served under you at Malachor V, had a detrimental effect upon you and your ties to the Force - and I suspect, your desire to be around others ever again."

 

HK-47: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

 

From these comments it seems clear that Revan purposefully manipulated events to suit his/her plans and knew exactly what the consequences would be for the jedi - s/he knew what the will of the force would be.

 

Still, that doesn't rule out your own explanation, but bear in mind what Kreia tells the LS Exile after the meeting with the masters.

 

Kriea: "There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death. Revan knew the power of such places... and the power in making them. They can be used to break the will of others... of Jedi, promising them power, and turning them to the dark side.Did you never wonder how Revan corrupted so many of the Jedi, so much of the Republic, so quickly?The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion.Culminating a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from... save one.And that is what I sought to understand. How one could turn away from such power, give up the Force... and still live. But I see what happened now. It is because you had no choice.It is because you were afraid."

 

Here it becomes clear, at least to me, that the Exile did walk away from the "destiny" that was thrust upon him/her by the force, especially when you compare it to something Kreia says at the end of the game.

 

Kreia: "In times past and in times future, there are Jedi who will stop listening to the Force, those that will try to forget it, but maintain unconscious ties. And those, as in the past just as I, who have had the force stripped from them.But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force."

 

And a little later...

 

Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it."

 

Yeah, he sub-consciously responded to the "Force attack" by severing himself from the Force. So now the question of "how did that not kill him?" begs to be asked. But i think it isn't that he drained himself of the Force, he just closed the door to it. So the Force, ie: the energy of all living things, etc... is still part of him. But the flaw with that logic is if that were true, than howcome they all say they feel as if he is an absence of the Force?    So either being without the Force doesn't kill you if you "make the fortitude roll' type of deal which the Masters and everyone at Malachor V failed, or the whole "the Force is everything" concept is actually false. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, the force isn't exactly the same as lifeforce per se, it seems, though they seem to be connected. The easiest way to understand that is by listening to Qui-Gon's explanation of the midi-cholorians. Note that he tells Anakin that the jedi would have no knowledge of the force without them, not that all life would cease to exist.

 

Now, I hate that explanation myself, but either way, we know that the force and life are not the same, because if it were, then the ability of the Ysalamiri (from Timothy Zahn's Thrawn Trilogy novels) to "push back the force" would be deadly, and clearly it is not. Luke doesn't die when they push the force back, he just loses his connection to the force for a while.

 

Now, whether that means Kreia can kill the force without destroying all life I'm not sure, but clearly they are not exactly the same. It might just as well be that the Ysalamiri can just make the force "dormant" somehow.

 

Oh, and wouldn't he have noticed right away when it happened that he has lost his Force connection? Someone else actually posted that earlier (don't remember who nor where): that it was Kreia who first suggested that idea to Exile. S/he hadn't thought of that her/himself prior to that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kreia manipulates people as always, yes. Should the Exile have noticed the lost connection? Perhaps, but the Exile was very traumatized at the time, and there is a lot the character has somehow "forgotten". I think there is even more that remains unrevealed so far.

 

And someone else asked the exact same question i'm about to ask now (again, no recollection of who nor where): if s/he was completely cut off from the Force, than how does the Exile create Force bonds? Or is it that they naturally occur as a type of resonance from the other person and Exile's attunement to that aspect of the Force opened the door to allow that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Exile is, according to the recording we see of Vandar and Vrook on Dantooine, actually a mediocre jedi. But s/he has a powerful gift for creating force bonds. So though the direct connection to the force was cut, those bonds were at lot more powerful. Besides, the Exile wasn't consciously aware of what had happened.

 

But the post-mortem draining occurs through his natural instincts, refering directly to the stuff Kreia was talking about. He can only do that because of "The Malachor V Effect" (to coin a phrase), which means he is a leech. And more confusion ensued 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the important thing to notice here is that he has the ability (unlike other jedi/sith it seems), yet lacks any conscious control over it...

[Bulgarian Jedi]

KotOR II (and KotOR I for that matter) making fun of G. Lucas's ideas?

 

I don't think so. In a matter of fact, I think it is quite the contrary.

 

Sure, both games (but mostly TSL) look beyond the simple Light versus Dark conflict, that is the soule of Star Wars. The games deal with topics from the movies like fall, redemption, and betreyal, but I think they have developed them in more detail. Not only that, but because the games are RPGs, the player can(or rather must) choose which philosophy to follow with its pluses and miuses.

The Sith Lords introduces new way of looking into the jedi and sith( due to no small part of Kreia). This is a more neutral or human look to the events. I have seen complaints that K2 does not feel typicly "Star Wars" like K1. However, I feel it is better that way; the RPGs as I view them are to introduce a player in a complex and detailed world similar to life on the planet Earth where the player's choices have a great effect on the story developement.

 

Just to summorize: The new points of view introduced make SW only more real and human. Wasn't this one of George Lucas's main intentions?

 

OK, so what does make fun of the guy's ideas. Well, let me just metion the tones of bad books, fan fictions, parodies, comic books, and computer games of which Sw is crowded. Of cource, there are also good ones, but less in number. I am not very familiar with any of these, good or bad (the KotORs are the reason I like SW, but the movies are also nice). Still, I can give an example with the LS ending of the game Jedi Academy. How smart does fighting the soule-of-a-resurrected-ancient-sith-lord-that-has-posessed-a-new-body-and-wants-revenge sound to you? To me it sounds cheeeeeesyyy(mildly put).

Edited April 20, 2006 by Bulgarian Jedi

[Mellypie]

I've been wondering this since i heard her make that comment the first time i played through; what exactly are her teachings?

 

That life can exsist without the Force. The Jedi are terrified of the idea of the Force not exsisting. Yet as someone pointed out the Ysalamari create a bubble around themselves where the Force doesn't exsist or is repressed, because the predators of the planet on which they are found, Myrkr, hunt using the Force. It is possible (since there is not mention of them in the games) that the Jedi do not know of their exsistance, and therefore not know that life could exsist without the Force. Silly Jedi, they even had evidence with the Exile standing right in front of them. That's why Kreia says: "She has brought you truth and you condem it!? The arrogance!"

 

I heard a theory about the Exile still being able to use the Force even though s/he's been severed from it. Bear with me this involves Midi-chlorians (and for convience's sake I'll be calling the Exile female): The Exile when she severed herself from the Force killed all the Midi-chlorians in her, the reason she can still use the Force could be because she is listening to the Midi-chlorians in others. Kreia, Atton, Bao-Dur, etc. and all life in general.

 

The Force bonding could still work if by listening to the Midi-chlorians in her companions causes them to bond with her. So basically it's not the Exile bonding with her companions but her companions bonding with her. Anyway that my inane ramblings on the subject, pick them apart at will. :D

[Jediphile]

That life can exsist without the Force. The Jedi are terrified of the idea of the Force not exsisting. Yet as someone pointed out the Ysalamari create a bubble around themselves where the Force doesn't  exsist or is repressed, because the predators of the planet on which they are found, Myrkr, hunt using the Force. It is possible (since there is not mention of them in the games) that the Jedi do not know of their exsistance, and therefore not know that life could exsist without the Force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Given that Myrkr was the homeworld of the Neti, and there was a Neti jedi master (Odd Bnar, though he was from the neti colony on Ryyk) during the Sith War (against Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma), it seems unlikely that the knowledge of the Ysalamiri and their powers would be unknown to the jedi order. The jedi could have forgotten about the Ysalamiri specifically after the Sith War and then the Mandalorian Wars and Jedi Civil War, where many jedi and much of their lore was lost, but they certainly have had access to the knowledge and probably studied its effects on the force, I'd say.

 

Silly Jedi, they even had evidence with the Exile standing right in front of them. That's why Kreia says: "She has brought you truth and you condem it!? The arrogance!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. What I really didn't like about that was how it was completely reversal of Zez-Kai Ell's position, as he describes it on Nar Shaddaa. He seemed by far the most likable of the masters in K2 (except perhaps for the lost Master Vash...)

 

I heard a theory about the Exile still being able to use the Force even though s/he's been severed from it. Bear with me this involves Midi-chlorians (and for convience's sake I'll be calling the Exile female): The Exile when she severed herself from the Force killed all the Midi-chlorians in her, the reason she can still use the Force could be because she is listening to the Midi-chlorians in others. Kreia, Atton, Bao-Dur, etc. and all life in general.

 

The Force bonding could still work if by listening to the Midi-chlorians in her companions causes them to bond with her. So basically it's not the Exile bonding with her companions but her companions bonding with her. Anyway that my inane ramblings on the subject, pick them apart at will.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, that's a good explanation. I hate the midi-cholorians, but that does make sense

[Mellypie]

Yes. What I really didn't like about that was how it was completely reversal of Zez-Kai Ell's position, as he describes it on Nar Shaddaa. He seemed by far the most likable of the masters in K2 (except perhaps for the lost Master Vash...)

I have a pet theory that Vrook used Force Persuade on both Kavar and Zez-Kai Ell. "

 

Yes, that's a good explanation. I hate the midi-cholorians, but that does make sense 

 

I'm not particularly fond of them either, but it was the only way I can explain it. I guess you could just say that the Exile was hearing the Force through others... mmm... come to think of it I think Kreia says something like that.... **checks** Yep, Kreia says after you escape from Peragus: "Perhaps you can hear the Force again... distantly, through me."

 

Oh, and I forgot to mention it before but the Exile doesn't have to believe that the Council is the one that cut her/him off from the Force. There are dialog options to believe or deny it.