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Secret Police


metadigital

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Do you think it is a good idea to have a "secret police force"? By that I am encompassing all the security and counter-intelligence forces, like the CIA, FBI, MI5/6, KGB/FSB, Mossad, etc.

 

Now, assuming that our healthy democracy needs a scret service, what would you:

  • want them to be able to do?
  • not want them to be able to do?

For example, would it be okay to allow them to act "above the law", as long as they maintain everybody else's compliance with the laws?

 

Should there be penalties for the members of the force, e.g. they would not be permited to own anything (the state would provide for all their needs) to minimise personal gain from the system?

 

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES?

Most importantly, who would police these police? Another body? (Who polices them? etc)

 

As oxymoronic as it is, I don't think it is possible for a free society to exist without such a conceit ... but does it follow that the freer the society, the more powerful the secret police (and the more controlled they must be)?

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Secret police remind me of the days of Nazi Germany and the Gestapo. No nation needs to have a force like that operating.

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As you so subtly pointed out, the main problem with such a force is the possibility of corruption and abuse of power from certain members.

 

In theory, they are essential and should have Carte Blanche.

In practice they must be closely monitored and severely reprimanded for any transgression.

 

We have a language police here in Quebec if you can believe it...

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I think the world is gradually comming to a point where we dont need them anymore. With the fall of the Soviet union, Swedens S

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"I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. "

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Noam Chomsky? OMG! :huh:

 

Kaftan, would you expand a little on why you think "the world is gradually comming to a point where we dont need them anymore."?

 

Are you talking about the (bias-neutral) technology that allows the lexa scripta to be policed in the open, without need of an oversight force to clean up the margins that might be able to escape justice?

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What do you mean by "secret police" exactly? We have something called Police Intelligence Service, (PET in danish) who is involved in anti-terror, personal security of members of parliament, surveillance of radical islamists etc.

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DENMARK!

 

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if there was a secret poliece force that had total carte blanche to act then you'd quickly see a coup because one of the higher ups would decide that he might as well run the country.

Victor of the 5 year fan fic competition!

 

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if there was a secret poliece force that had total carte blanche to act then you'd quickly see a coup because one of the higher ups would decide that he might as well run the country.

 

 

Thats why they must be closely monitored and severely reprimanded for any transgression.

 

 

WARNING! This next part will seem quite fascist but know it is only part of a thought process and meant more as a question than an actual opinion or point of view of mine. If fascism or me offend you, do not read this next part...

 

**************************

 

A secret police or a more "hardcore" police force could actually be needed in the near future.

People have more and more rights and freedoms and individuality has enjoyed a much more important privilege than societies or even the human race.

For survival purposes we may soon need to drop some political correctness, freedoms and rights if only for the greater good.

Peoples ask way too much out of their Governments and if we compare a country to a job, many people would've been fired(upon) a long time ago.

 

If I was a leader of a country(God forbid :) ) and I had plans to make the country a certain way but still for what I believe to be the greater good and a rebel faction would rise, opposing me at every turn, would I allow them to go on because they have the right to protest, possibly putting my country and me at risk, or would I simply have them all executed?

In a game I would choose the latter without question. In real life... I really don't know.

 

Moral implications are a barrier to the human race's evolution. Doing what is moraly right for everyone is 1- Impossible because individuality makes everyone unique and 2- Not always good for the species.

 

Are all dictators evil or are they simply going against the moral current?

 

"Kill one person and they call you a murderer. Kill 100 000 and they call you a conquerer."

 

Why is murder wrong in a world where overpopulation threatens the survival of all living things?

 

Would there be crimes in a world without laws?

 

**************************

 

Ok that is enough from me today.

Going back to the KotOR and Oblivion forums :D

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the closest thing to a "secret police" in the US is the CIA and maybe the secret service. the former has no power within our borders (legally, whether they use power is another story) and the latter really aren't all that secret. their power extends to protecting the government interests in particular (including money).

 

other than that, a free society does not need such entities inside its borders. the threat of serious punishment for transgressions does nothinig to organizations that can't get caught. there is no way to control such a thing.

 

taks

comrade taks... just because.

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Uh...

 

Since when was FBI secret police?

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when I think of "secret police", I do, indeed, conjure up images of Soviet-style KGB...an all-encompassing force that will arrest you for, among other things, having points of view that are not authorized.

 

I don't think "free societies" need this nor is it in their best interest to have it.

However, there is a recognized need for more "domestic security", even if that sometimes involves spying on citizens.

 

Rapid Response Teams are nothing new--it is how they obtain actionable intelligence that is cause for concern.

 

It is a very amorphous line. I think the best bet is to have legislation that sets some very clear lines of demarkation with regard to privacy while giving law enforcement the ability to share information with the military and with the intelligence community and vice versa under certain narrowly-defined circumstances.

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A secret police or a more "hardcore" police force could actually be needed in the near future.

People have more and more rights and freedoms and individuality has enjoyed a much more important privilege than societies or even the human race.

For survival purposes we may soon need to drop some political correctness, freedoms and rights if only for the greater good.

That was the nub of my thought: if the extremists / criminal overlords are able to keep outside the jurisdiction of the police, who are constrained by the use of legal means, then would it be expedient to allow some to act outside the law, in order to enforce it?

 

And if the answer is yes, then how do you prevent them from over-reaching their mandate (effecting coups / etc)?

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Would there be crimes in a world without laws?

In order to have a crime, you'd need a law to say that it, whatever "it" is, is a crime. So, simply put, no laws, no crimes.

I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows

 

'Cause I won't know the man that kills me

and I don't know these men I kill

but we all wind up on the same side

'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will.

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A secret police or a more "hardcore" police force could actually be needed in the near future.

People have more and more rights and freedoms and individuality has enjoyed a much more important privilege than societies or even the human race.

For survival purposes we may soon need to drop some political correctness, freedoms and rights if only for the greater good.

That was the nub of my thought: if the extremists / criminal overlords are able to keep outside the jurisdiction of the police, who are constrained by the use of legal means, then would it be expedient to allow some to act outside the law, in order to enforce it?

 

And if the answer is yes, then how do you prevent them from over-reaching their mandate (effecting coups / etc)?

 

I suppose the question is how do you find uncorruptable men and women who could do the job assigned by an uncorruptable leader?

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Laws of the jungle is those who are strong enough rule. Those who are weak fall by the wayside.

War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength

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I suppose the question is how do you find uncorruptable men and women who could do the job assigned by an uncorruptable leader?

in a fiction novel.

 

Metadigital is looking for Batman.

Indeed.

 

I read a short story (Ray Bradbury?) where the police force was manned by only idealistic people: people who are incorruptible by dint of their Weltanschauung. They must retire when they become suseptible to corruption ... mandatory retirement age from the force was nineteen. :D (Joining age was thriteen, iirc). Then everyone went onto civilian life, having completed their military service.

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Indeed.

 

I read a short story (Ray Bradbury?) where the police force was manned by only idealistic people: people who are incorruptible by dint of their Weltanschauung. They must retire when they become suseptible to corruption ... mandatory retirement age from the force was nineteen. :D (Joining age was thriteen, iirc). Then everyone went onto civilian life, having completed their military service.

 

Sounds like Bradbury alright.

It also sounds like real life... :blink:

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