Krookie Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 I'd like to visit one or two of the old planets. Maybe Kashyyk, or whatever it's called, to see how Z's old tribe is doing.
Darth Hades Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Is Darth Hades a non-annoying alt.? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I assure you, this is my first time here. I guess there was a previous Hades who spoiled the good name?
Gabrielle Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Is Darth Hades a non-annoying alt.? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I assure you, this is my first time here. I guess there was a previous Hades who spoiled the good name? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nah he's a fun guy to be around.
Musopticon? Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Is Darth Hades a non-annoying alt.? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I assure you, this is my first time here. I guess there was a previous Hades who spoiled the good name? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showuser=199 Most annoying dude ever. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds
hawk Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Is Darth Hades a non-annoying alt.? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I assure you, this is my first time here. I guess there was a previous Hades who spoiled the good name? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showuser=199 Most annoying dude ever. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Which is why I clicked on Ignore User for that character. No, if Darth Hades was the same person we would surely recognize it. Judge Hades quotes in this topic: I wish Kotor III has the option to play as a non force user I think Kotor III shouldn't be made if there is no option to play as a non force user. Me: "Why don't you then strap yourself in an Armor, equip a blaster / vibroblade and select force powers which are restricted by Armor" Judge Hades: "I don't metagame, and that is no roleplaying at all" From his 11134 posts I have only found 1 post that I agree with. And he is probably never serious. No, Darth Hades is surely not him. Master Vandar lives!
Musopticon? Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 Nah. He's almost always serious. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds
ap76 Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 I have skimmed most of the previous forums, so I hope I am not dredging up "issues" that will cause hate and discontent. To me, the storyline is the central key to the success of the game. The next keys are major themes and features. I really don't care about small customizations....hilts, facial features, etc. Those features certainly add personalization to the experience, but ultimately I want to be able to immerse myself in the story itself. Let me preface by stating that I bought both games on the same day and played them back to back. The biggest letdown on KOTOR2 was the lack of a huge revelation within the story. I was really not expecting to find out in KOTOR that the main character was indeed Revan. That was awesome! It certainly made the game worth playing. However, it did not make me want to replay it, and in fact, I haven't. KOTOR 2 on the other hand was a 2X replay. Once to play as DS and once to use a walkthrough and complete some sidequests and/or explore the influence features in greater detail. I could probably replay one more round to check out more influence on DS characters, but I think I am done for a while. The problem you have now is that you have a situation of trying to follow 2 stories, which I don't think you'll be able to do and make it convincing. KOTOR was a storyline success I think because is was disconnected from the rest of the SW world and you could start a whole new story without limits. This brings me to my ultimate point and suggestion. Forget a follow up. Go back again. I have played 4 SW RPGs: KOTOR, KOTOR 2, SW: Jedi Oucast, and SW: Jedi Academy. There is one character who has been present in 3 of those 4 games........Marka (or Marko) Ragnos. in KOTOR 2, on Korriban, Kreia begins the story of the Galactic struggle for power not only within the Sith faction, but there also allusions in KOTOR 2 about the Great Hyperspace War as well. There are still stories of Fredon Nadd, Ajunta Pall, Ragnos, the Republic that haven't been told. We have heard the beginnings of a story about the greatest wielder of a lightsaber ever........ To make this a truly great game/storyline, you'll almost have to shed yourself all boundaries and limits. To do that, you are going to have to leave the KOTOR & KOTOR 2 Storylines behind, as resolving them both in one episode will never meet everyone's expectations. New storyline, new time equals no expectations or limits. The closest (in time) that any future game can be to KOTOR or KOTOR 2 would be a cutscene at the end of Malak and Revan arriving at Dantooine to begin their Jedi training together. Wouldn't a prequel be true Star Wars fashion anyway? Exile's story has been told and resolved. The future of the party was told as well. Revan's story should have been resolved in KOTOR 2. It's too late to go back to him now and make it believable. We should have known what happened to him already. But it wasn't, and maybe a little mystery is a good thing. Besides, how can you p/u with Revan? I may have played him with one personality and someone else with another...you can't possibly satisfy all of the permuations of Revan's character available in KOTOR. Stick with the same interface, turn based combat is ok now that I am used to it, expand on the influence feature, and make sure you have some great sidequests in there. But above all, make it a great story. Playing KOTOR was better than watching EP3. Remember that the success of Star Wars is ultimately about the epic struggle between good and evil. It's not about any single character. Good Luck, I look forward to the game.....although I am sure my wife doesn't! AP76
Gabrielle Posted March 24, 2006 Posted March 24, 2006 K3 needs a complete story. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A complete ending.
ap76 Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Here are some more general plotline thoughts that could be worked in or used as a basis: 1. How did the Sith settle on Korriban for their academy? 2. Where did the "no attachments" rule within the Jedi Order originate? Is this how Jedi fell to the darkside originally........ 3. When did the prophecy of the chosen one come about? 4. How did the Mandalorian Wars begin? (this one has potential to use the Revan/Malak connection.....) 5. What is the story of Marka Ragnos? 6. What about Exar Kun? 7. When did the Republic first rise to power? 8. Why do PCs always start with no power? Why not start a Jedi/Sith Master and try to train Padawan/Apprentice who may or may not ultimately turn on you? INFLUENCE options could really be expanded here 9. How often do Jedi need to interact with the Jedi Council? Can a jedi/jedi master fall because of the perceived complacency or arrogance of the Jedi Council? (Darth Tyranus) 10. Why is it when a Sith Lord attacks one person in a group, every one in the group continues to attack? Why doesn't any other NPC run/beg for mercy? Just some more food for thought! AP76
Darth Hades Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Here are some more general plotline thoughts that could be worked in or used as a basis: 2. Where did the "no attachments" rule within the Jedi Order originate? Is this how Jedi fell to the darkside originally........ Just some more food for thought! AP76 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> This caught my eye, wanted to comment on it. 2. I would imagine this "rule" was not originally a concept of the Jedi Order, but that in seeing how other Jedi gave into temptation, indulgence without control and lust for power without restraint and fell from the light side (Possibly in the Ancient Jedi Civil War that first split the Order between Light and Dark...which would also be a great story idea). Seeing how easily it could corrupt others it was inacted as a guideline by the remaining Order and strictly enforced.
hawk Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 I would like to give a more serious comment on AP 76's first post about the storyline without quoting your entire post I agree with you that the storyline is no doubt the most important thing there is in a Kotor game. It is true that it could be difficult to finish off the storyline of Revan / the Exile and the others and that is why Lucasarts should allow Obsidian (or possibly another dev) to take a lot more time this time then it had with Kotor II because they got a big job to do. Now, I think a prequel can be done but I don't think there are that many gamers waiting for a prequel since that will just show the Devs incompetence not to be able to build a more difficult storyline and the fact that we do know where the story ends (Revan and Malak will fall to the DS and find the Star forge). I would like to play this game, sure but I think it would be better served when it is for example an action game like Jedi Academy or Jedi Outcast or maybe a battlefront game or something like that, I don't know. There are many possibilities. Now, why I think a finishing storyline would be all right. Well, I did build a short storyline idea which will make it possible to set: 1) Revan and the Exile's appearance / alignment etc. practically everything. 2) To start with a new character who has a lightsaber right at the start 3) This new character could also be a different species. You want to play as a Twilek, Cathar, Zabrak, Rodian? You could 4) Have quiet a few ending possibilities. Not just a LS and a DS ending but you can determine who will live and who will die. Influence is very important here and also what you have done about Revan and the Exiles alignment. I could PM this toryline proposal to you. And it is my belief that if I could make a working storyline then I am sure a professional writer can surely put together a good one. Master Vandar lives!
Weiser_Cain Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 More role-play in relation to my class. One of the downsides of Crpgs is that you don't really get into the mindset of what you are. You kill stuff and just get better at it. One of the best parts of KOTOR was the sith academy. I really was just a thug until I went there and saw the rational behind the sith. It was the turning point in the game for me and is probably why the game still resides on my crowded hard drive. It would be nice to be able to actively seek out knowledge and or master in the Jedi or Sith tradition and learn form the or their holocron/ghosts. I think it would add immensely to the replay value of the game, a lot of meat in this zot Yaw devs, Yaw!!! (
ap76 Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Hawk - You make a great point on the star forge! That is a predetermied storyline and would make a great "outcast type" action game. Maybe that would quench the thirst of those "revanites" who really didn't like turn based combat. I am reading the rest of the post still, so, give me a few min to reply again, but that idea on the Star Forge was great. Would make an awesome, albeit huge, mod for Jedi Academy and a better standalone game
ap76 Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Ok - I will await your storyline proposal and keep an open mind. In the interim, I will try to pose some more questions that draw out thought as related to finishing 1&2 plotlines. 1. Can we effectively (from the Events in KOTOR 2?) draw the conclusion that Exile went looking for Revan? (FYI I really never did a DS ending in KOTOR2) 2. In the KOTOR 2 party, other than GOTO, T3 & HK, is there a party member who's path is consistent regardless of PCs actions? I ask because that member would be the easiest to transition into a plot role in the 3rd go around 3. I have seen some chatter about training a Jedi to go looking for Revan & Exile. OK but would this be trusted to a Padawan? 4. We need a new Jedi Council. (Bastila, Brianna, Visas?) What if you went DS? Can we find a way to raise Kavar and the others from the dead? Except we murder them as DS players, so no I guess they're out. 5. If Revan was inherently LS, why would he go into hiding and leave the Republic and Jedi Order in a shambles? This behavior seems to run him down the DS no matter how you played him in K1. Using the lightest K2 description of Revan, can you still bridge that gap and get him to fall again (off camera so to speak)? If so, how much of a cutscene will it take to make that believable. 6. If we are to start off with a trained Jedi, we need him/her to come from somewhere. Were there other's on Exile's Council in the cut scene that weren't in the game. 7. The Sith need to make a comeback, and Korriban is a train wreck. I agree that I have played on that planet enough, but this is a pivotal location in Sith history...>>There's a holocron still sitting there that may help unlock the secret's to Revans fate?!?!? 8. At some point, the Sith decide that there will only ever be 2, an apprentice and a master, instead of these Grand Armies of dark jedi. When and how does this come about? Can K3 end on this point? Think about it, the sith are in turmoil when there's a Kreia, Atris, Nilihous, Revan, etc floating about. Does Revan go off to contemplate this and kill off the remaining sith to either a) wipe them out-LS, or b) cleanse the order of the weak-DS. Does exile go to rescue, eliminate or join him? Does Exile finally unlock the navicomputer on the Ebon Hawk, was it a message for him left by Revan? 9. Is it possible for Revan to be Darth Plagus? I am not a huge EU reader so I am not sure how much of those stories have been covered already. But the Plagus story from Ep3 works well for Revan and Exile. 10. If you go down the path of #9, could a 3rd party be LS until killing Revan and then the power of Revan be infused upon him to create Plagus. In the Star Wars universe, no episode has to have a happy ending. Ep3 is proof if that. Maybe it's time for a very dark and emotional ending.
moreKOTORplz Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 glad to see everyone is still having fun talking about the same crap
Bokishi Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 glad to see everyone is still having fun talking about the same crap <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Now that isn't very nice. Current 3DMark
hawk Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 (edited) Very good questions AP-76. I would certainly try to answer your questions: 1) Yes, even when DS the Exile will go searching for Revan. It is really the only real option available. The other choices Kreia offers you are not available in your end lines. So yes it will be "I will follow Revan again, as I did a decade ago". 2) That might be Atton and Bao Dur. All the others except Mandalore depend on your gender and alignment (Mira / Hanharr / Handmaiden / Disciple). And Mandalore only came with you to reunite the clans and destroy the Ravager. 3) That's doubtful to me as well, yes. That's why my character is very different. Okay, I guess I could openly tell that Revan and the Exile will find you! 4) No: Kavar, Vrook and Zez kai Ell are dead. Bastila is an option (if you set Revan as DS she will further train you as a Sith). The Architect (from this forum) is working on that idea to make a story. 5) Revan left the republic to defend it against the True Sith. He went out himself to spy on them and not place his friends in danger (His friends provide a weakness and the True Sith will go after them in stead of going after him). 6) It all could be written in really. We could also only assume what had happened to well: Cariaga Sin Talvon Esan Nisotsa Xaset Terep Now, do you recognize these names? Well, they are the ones who followed Revan in the Mandalorian wars and attacked you in the tomb on Korriban. How about these characters: Bolook Deesra They were in Kotor I, and there is absolutely no mentioning of them in Kotor II so we can only assume what happened to them. Also, you could bring back the other Jedi masters you have seen on Dantooine in Kotor I. Vrook said they went to Katarr but that's like saying that "someone" died on 911 because they thought he was in the WTC at the wrong time when that "someone" actually was somewhere else (like cheating with his wife at that time. It saved his life. You heard that story?) Another one that should be alive is Dustil Onasi. You could kill him, yes as a DS Revan but you probably didn't because you are not supposed to do that. Just like you could kill Bastila as a LS Revan but you are not supposed to. 7) Who knows. In my story, you are not going to Korriban. The 2 Sith rule was only there at the time of Darth Bane, a 900 years before Star Wars A New Hope. In my story the Exile will help Revan first and then they seperate. 9) No, not really. Plageuis was the master of Palpatine. Palpatine speaks of himself killing his master in his sleep. I think it would be a little strange to have Revan live for a 4000 years, right! :D 10) Nothing is impossible right. But maybe Plageuis has learned the technique from Revan or the Exile. How about that? You could build up quiet a story yes. As to your first questions on this page. I am sorry to not know much about that. But I guess this helps. Edited March 25, 2006 by hawk Master Vandar lives!
Jediphile Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 Here are some more general plotline thoughts that could be worked in or used as a basis: 1. How did the Sith settle on Korriban for their academy? 2. Where did the "no attachments" rule within the Jedi Order originate? Is this how Jedi fell to the darkside originally........ 3. When did the prophecy of the chosen one come about? 4. How did the Mandalorian Wars begin? (this one has potential to use the Revan/Malak connection.....) 5. What is the story of Marka Ragnos? 6. What about Exar Kun? 7. When did the Republic first rise to power? 8. Why do PCs always start with no power? Why not start a Jedi/Sith Master and try to train Padawan/Apprentice who may or may not ultimately turn on you? INFLUENCE options could really be expanded here 9. How often do Jedi need to interact with the Jedi Council? Can a jedi/jedi master fall because of the perceived complacency or arrogance of the Jedi Council? (Darth Tyranus) 10. Why is it when a Sith Lord attacks one person in a group, every one in the group continues to attack? Why doesn't any other NPC run/beg for mercy? Just some more food for thought! AP76 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1. In ancient times or in the KotOR era? In ancient times they didn't - it was their graveyard world, where the greatest sith lords were buried. In Revan's age, it was one of the few known worlds of the ancient Sith, and so Revan and Malak's Sith placed their academy there (since Malachor was practically destroyed, or else Revan wanted to keep it's secrets to himself). 2. Don't know. Even in the KotOR era, this seems to be hazy. Andur Sunrider had a wife and child while he was a jedi. Even Jolee had a wife, so it seems that rule came about some time before K1, but after the Great Sith War of Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma. 3. I don't think even GL has settled that bit, and since it's important to the movies, everyone else working with Star Wars creatively is probably not permitted or even willing to touch it with a ten-foot pole. 4. 3963 Before the Battle of Yavin, which is about four years before K1. 5. This. It's pretty uneventful, jedi vs. sith-wise, since he's already dead before the jedi even learn of the Sith Empire (or vice versa). 6. The story of Exar Kun has been told and finished. Check out the Tales of the Jedi comic books The Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War, if you want to know. This is all history set in stone now. 7. The best estimate is probably around 25.000 years Before the Battle of Yavin when the Galactic Constitution was signed. 8. Beginning at low levels and watching your character grow to power is the most fun aspect of the d20 system. Still, I'd go for a skill-based system myself in a second, but as long as we're stuck with d20, it would be utter stupidity to throw away the progressive element, which is one of its few redeeming qualities, silly and illogical though it may be. 9. Dooku (=Darth Tyranus) had left the order by the time we meet him in Episode II. Jedi who still belong to the order are supposed to follow the code and report in for new orders now and then, though they can be given those through transmission or even the force, I guess. Jolee left the order too, of course, and so doesn't answer to the council, even though he did not turn to the dark side. 10. The KotOR system comes from D&D's simplistic d20 system. I guess it really shows here. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
Jediphile Posted March 25, 2006 Posted March 25, 2006 To me, the storyline is the central key to the success of the game. The next keys are major themes and features. I really don't care about small customizations....hilts, facial features, etc. Those features certainly add personalization to the experience, but ultimately I want to be able to immerse myself in the story itself. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed. Plot is and always should be central. If not, there is no way I will ever play. This brings me to my ultimate point and suggestion. Forget a follow up. Go back again. I have played 4 SW RPGs: KOTOR, KOTOR 2, SW: Jedi Oucast, and SW: Jedi Academy. There is one character who has been present in 3 of those 4 games........Marka (or Marko) Ragnos. in KOTOR 2, on Korriban, Kreia begins the story of the Galactic struggle for power not only within the Sith faction, but there also allusions in KOTOR 2 about the Great Hyperspace War as well. There are still stories of Fredon Nadd, Ajunta Pall, Ragnos, the Republic that haven't been told. We have heard the beginnings of a story about the greatest wielder of a lightsaber ever........ To make this a truly great game/storyline, you'll almost have to shed yourself all boundaries and limits. To do that, you are going to have to leave the KOTOR & KOTOR 2 Storylines behind, as resolving them both in one episode will never meet everyone's expectations. New storyline, new time equals no expectations or limits. The closest (in time) that any future game can be to KOTOR or KOTOR 2 would be a cutscene at the end of Malak and Revan arriving at Dantooine to begin their Jedi training together. Wouldn't a prequel be true Star Wars fashion anyway? Exile's story has been told and resolved. The future of the party was told as well. Revan's story should have been resolved in KOTOR 2. It's too late to go back to him now and make it believable. We should have known what happened to him already. But it wasn't, and maybe a little mystery is a good thing. Besides, how can you p/u with Revan? I may have played him with one personality and someone else with another...you can't possibly satisfy all of the permuations of Revan's character available in KOTOR. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't think I could possibly disagree more. In fact, I think I disagree with just about everything you say here. First of all, the stories of Marka Ragnos and Freedon Nadd are scarcely untold. Check out the Tales of the Jedi comic books (Golden Age of the Sith for Ragnos, Freedon Nadd Uprising and Dark Lords of the Sith for Freedon Nadd) if you have interest in this. They are now part of history set in stone and cannot be altered, which makes them unsuitable for games except as background history (which is how the KotOR games used them). Second, I disagree vehemently that you cannot continue the story. On the contrary, K2 seemed to go out of its way to set the stage for a possible K3 exactly because K1 did not leave much room for a sequel - that's why we see the Exile and not Revan in K2. I also think you're completely overlooking that K2 ended with a promise from Kreia that there was more on the horizon... Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark. Have we? You thought that the corrupted remnants of the Republic, the machines spawned by technology that Revan led into battle were the Sith? You are wrong. The Sith is a belief. And its empire, the true Sith Empire, rules elsewhere.And Revan knew the true war is not against the Republic. It waits for us, beyond the Outer Rim. And he has gone to fight it, in his own way.He left the Ebon Hawk and its machines behind, for he knew he would not need them.And, like you, he knew he must leave all loves behind as well, no matter how deeply one cares for them. Because such attachments are not the way of the Jedi, and they would only bring doom to them both in the dark places where he now walks. It would have helped had he made her understand. But she was always strong-willed, that one, and did not understand war as Revan did. Because I did not know where he had gone. If he had asked... would I have gone? I do not know.But he will need warriors, Sith and Jedi, any who can be sent after him into the depths of space, any who know the way.Perhaps you shall go there with him, and do battle at the end of all things." Especially the last bit here says very clearly that neither the Exile's nor Revan's story is finished yet, and I disagree in the strongest terms that the Exile's story has been resolved in any way, though this goes back to theories that we have discussed on these boards before. I don't understand why you can insist that there are "limits and boundaries" just because a K3 must build on what has happened in K2 and K3. On the contrary, that is less limiting, because anything can happen in that time period - we have virtually no knowledge of what happens in the galaxy during the time between K2 and the time of Darth Ruin's Sith order almost 2000 years later, so K3 can go in whatever direction it pleases. If your problem lies with reconciling where Revan and Exile ended up in K1 and K2 respectively, then I fail to see why that must be considered a "problem". Writers of Star Trek have frequently considered establised facts a "problem", but that's just because they're unimaginative and failed completely to realise just what an advantage a rich history can be for plot development. Several people here have already proposed plots that reconcile these things, among those both Hawk and myself (though we don't agree on how to do so). I thought there were clues in K2 that foreshadowed how we would meet both Revan and the Exile in K3, so I dare say the devs have already taken this into account. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
ap76 Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 (edited) Jediphile - All good points, I think I blurbed somwhere that I don't know much about the EU. And it shows in this instance. Bummer on the Ragnos & Nadd thing, that would be fun to play. I guess my main point for leaving this storyline and moving on to a new one was that there were so many variables between 1&2 that trying to work all of that in to a finale could be a major setup for disappointment. The other issue from a marketability standpoint is that you have to be careful not to create a situation where you would have needed to play 1 & 2 to understand 3. In 2, when you are setting Revan's gender/alignment, I agree that it is very subtle and doesn't tie up the game getting that established. Also it needed to be done to satisfy those who had played 1 a particular way. But if you hadn't played 1 and you are faced with a dialogue response that says "I thought Revan was a man." you'd be thinking, "well what does that have to do with anything?" Case in point, on my last replay, when I got to that part, I basically ignored the question that set's Revan's gender. I think I just used a standard response, not sure. Anyway, then I finally got enough repair and influence to get T3 to show the Onasi video and he's going on about "she this" and "her that", and I am thinking "what?, I thought Bastila went dark and I killed her." Anyway, it took a bit before it became clear what was going on. Now you have that potential issue with two PCs. It is going to be interesting to see if it can be pulled off without being too cheesy, causing confusion, and not affecting people who have never played. So that is why I would advocate moving either way back, or way ahead. Not that it is impossible, but the expectations on plot completion are so high from former players, some of whom probably write reviews for gaming mags, the real question becomes..... When approaching marketability and commercial success, is the reward of getting it right worth the risk of getting it wrong? So, I would close with this, if K3 will be a storyline follow up, and it was mine to write, I would probably take the safe route and come up with a catch all genderless backstory cut scene in the beginning that sets the alignment of Revan and Exile one way or another. I work on new product development quite a bit, and from a business standpoint, this is how I think you'd have to approach it. The risk has to be managed very carefully. Remember that by the time we ever see a K3 (2007- there will be a whole new generation of PC Gamers that were probably under age 10 when K1 came out. The movies handled the age gap well. they went far enough back to tell a story that made the new generation want to see what happened next. Fortunately it probably won't be 20 years for K3, but still, it is marketing consideration, or it should be. See where I struggle is that the Star Wars saga (and I mean ep 4-6) was origninally a traditional 3 act play. E4 sets up the most climactic part of the entire saga which is in E5. E6 is the resolution to E5. E1-3, while good movies, are just deeper backstory. E3 stumbled a bit I thought to make me buy off on Anakin's fall to the DS and it also failed to clearly pass the torch to Luke. See if you watch them in actual order 1-6 then story quickly changes from a story of Darth Vader to a story of Luke Skywalker. When E4 was written, the risk was managed. If it flopped at the box office, the story was resolved. If it was a hit, on to E5. IMHO, Acts 1 and 2, maybe even 3 were played out in KOTOR 1. The PC being revealed as Revan was, by traditional means, supposed to be in Act 2, and thus near the end of K2. K3 would then easily have been Malaks death, redemption, etc....... But it didn't play out that way, and now the story has gone off on 2 tangents and K3, if it is to follow storyline, will be done so not to tie up the loose ends, but just to build off the commercial success of 1 & 2. Ask yourself this, would Ep1 been such a hit without Ep4-6? E1-3 really only served to fill in details. It didn't add to the original story very much. I would have been just as happy with 4-6 only. And this is really why I'd rather leave Revan behind, and set out to tell a story in a more Shakespearian way, in the way of the original trilogy. In closing, I will say that I am leaning this way partially because I am really bummed out with Empire At War. The story is set just before Ep4 and the Death Star already works and blows up planets. That doesn't fit with Ep4 at all, and as soon as that happened I quit playing the game. Waste of 50 bucks. -ap76 Edited March 26, 2006 by ap76
Jediphile Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 The other issue from a marketability standpoint is that you have to be careful not to create a situation where you would have needed to play 1 & 2 to understand 3. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, but the danger is also there of losing the audience you already have if you completely disregard what is already established. Just look at what happened to Star Trek (Enterprise) for a good example of what happens then... Now you have that potential issue with two PCs. It is going to be interesting to see if it can be pulled off without being too cheesy, causing confusion, and not affecting people who have never played. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> My own suggestion was to do it as part of jedi history classes on Coruscant in the beginning of the game. Not sure if that's cheesy, but discussing Revan and Exile as part of recent jedi history seems more than relevant. So, I would close with this, if K3 will be a storyline follow up, and it was mine to write, I would probably take the safe route and come up with a catch all genderless backstory cut scene in the beginning that sets the alignment of Revan and Exile one way or another. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You cannot make Revan and Exile genderless due to their romantic attachments, especially Revan. For Revan to get any sort of closure, you must resolve the relationship with Carth or Bastila depending on gender. As for alignment, I think K2 already foreshadowed that with the visions in the tomb on Korriban. Note how you first have a scene with Malak recruiting jedi (pre-Mandalorian Wars history), then a scene with a battle on Dxun (also the past during the Mandalorian Wars). Next came a showdown between Kreia and your companions (the present), and finally you meet dark side visions of Revan and yourself, who both have dark side mastery (you can see that if you learned Force Sight from Visas)... I dare say this points to the future, so I think Revan and Exile will both be DS if you meet them again in K3 - it's already planned, as far as I can tell. Remember that by the time we ever see a K3 (2007- there will be a whole new generation of PC Gamers that were probably under age 10 when K1 came out. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Much as I hate to admit it, pc gamers are not the primary audience of KotOR, and we never were. So the real question is whether the game will come out only for the Xbox 360, and whether you can play K1 and K2 on that as well. If Xbox 360 can't do K1 and K2 or if K3 comes out for Playstation 3 as well, then I'd agree the target audience could be new people. But then, many could have moved on from the old Xbox, and even if they didn't, that doesn't mean you have to know the content of K1 and K2 by heart to make a progressive story. I have also adviced playing a new character in K3, making Revan and Exile enter the scene only towards the end of the game. That could mean that uncovering the truth of the previous games as well (and certainly more importantly) as what has happened to them since K2. Again, history is a foundation for good storytelling if used right. It does not have to be an obstacle unless you making it one by insisting on it. The movies handled the age gap well. they went far enough back to tell a story that made the new generation want to see what happened next. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not so sure I agree with that one... I'm actually disappointed to learn that Palpatine's Empire only lasted 23 years - it always seemed much older to me. And besides, don't you think Obi-Wan looked older than 57 in Ep. IV or Vader/Anakin older than 46 in Return of the Jedi? Many authors seemed to have the same impression before the prequels were made as well. As a consequence there is a notable continuity problem in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy... See where I struggle is that the Star Wars saga (and I mean ep 4-6) was origninally a traditional 3 act play. E4 sets up the most climactic part of the entire saga which is in E5. E6 is the resolution to E5. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But that's exactly why we need a follow-up K3. K2 was a set-up for it, as Ep.5 was a set-up for Ep.6. We haven't seen KotOR's "Return of the Jedi" yet, and the plot is wide open and unresolved. E1-3, while good movies, are just deeper backstory. E3 stumbled a bit I thought to make me buy off on Anakin's fall to the DS and it also failed to clearly pass the torch to Luke. See if you watch them in actual order 1-6 then story quickly changes from a story of Darth Vader to a story of Luke Skywalker. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It doesn't pass the torch to Luke, but the movies aren't really about Luke anymore - they'are about Anakin's rise, fall to the dark side, and his eventual redemption. Luke has become a mere means by which to tell that story. Vader is the main character of the Star Wars movies now, not Luke Skywalker. When E4 was written, the risk was managed. If it flopped at the box office, the story was resolved. If it was a hit, on to E5. IMHO, Acts 1 and 2, maybe even 3 were played out in KOTOR 1. The PC being revealed as Revan was, by traditional means, supposed to be in Act 2, and thus near the end of K2. K3 would then easily have been Malaks death, redemption, etc....... But it didn't play out that way, and now the story has gone off on 2 tangents and K3, if it is to follow storyline, will be done so not to tie up the loose ends, but just to build off the commercial success of 1 & 2. Ask yourself this, would Ep1 been such a hit without Ep4-6? E1-3 really only served to fill in details. It didn't add to the original story very much. I would have been just as happy with 4-6 only. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No. As you just said yourself, Ep. 4 was resolved, just as K1 was. The Death Star was not originally meant to be destroyed until in Ep. 6, but Lucas wasn't sure he'd ever get to do it, so he put it in the original movie instead. That's why we have two Death Stars. Lucas need to "reopen" his plot and build on it. He did so in Ep. 5, setting the stage for Ep. 6. K2 does the same for K3 - that's why it has an open ending that needs resolution. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums.
ap76 Posted March 26, 2006 Posted March 26, 2006 Jediphile - OK, I am going to try to keep this one a bit shorter: Audience/Revan & Exile - I think that referring to the previous PCs only in a historical or cutscene sense will ultimately be how it plays out. That will likely be the only way to cover the Audience factor. Gender/Alignment - Jedi not being allowed attachments or a Sith lord heading off to wherever will cover the romance factor. I think overall alignment for Revan has to be DS, he went there once, it is not a stretch to do it again no matter how you played K1 K3 Generation - I should hae just said "gamers" I only have a PC, so the other stuff doesn't enter mind. But the XBOX factor is a good point. But I will never buy a console for 1 game. Age Gap - sorry, I meant viewer/audience age gap, not character age gap. Hopefully my point is clearer in that context Closure(K1/K2) - They added material after resolution to K1 and K2 to make room for a sequel. That's a lot different than telling an epic story in 2 or 3 installments. You said it yourself, it was a set up, not a natural continuation. Kreia's defeat is the resolution to K2, Malak's is resolution for K1. There was no 2nd act climax in K2, which is disappointing. Ep1-6 - I agree for the new generation, the story is about Anakin/Vader. For my generation it was about Luke, Han, and Leia - and I hate to say this, but it was ruined. The whole point of the Trilogy was to find out that Vader was our hero's (luke) father. When viewed 1-6, that becomes trivial. ugh! Trilogy - I disagree ,the story for 4-6 (and the idea of 1-3) was set before 4 was made. The story was pared down to a 2 hr moive so you got a modified Act 1 that was set up to manage risk in case of commercial failure. The story was already written with the End of Ep5 being the trilogy's climactic moment. The plot wasn't reopened in Ep5, it was continued. Listen to the George Lucas interviews from about 1997 when the original trilogy was rereleased, he describes this in detail. Again I agree, ultimately, the story is about Vader. But for my generation, it wasn't...nor will it ever be. Resolution for E4 was merely a fail-safe. Great debate though! -ap76
Plano Skywalker Posted March 27, 2006 Posted March 27, 2006 one suggestion I remember from several months ago was to have it so where the PC addresses the Senate...I think that would be great and this would be a good time to do it since there, essentially, is no Jedi Order right now. so any Force Sensitive could, conceivably, gain the attention of the government. have it so where you can steer the Senate in the right direction (LS) or wrong direction (DS) and with the potential to succeed or fail with either attempt.
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