Complaint: grey characters not grey enough.

[Benfea]

In KotOR I and II, we have supposedly neutral characters who are anything but.

 

During the course of KotOR I, Jolee Bindo never does a single evil thing and is pretty much indistinguishable from any of the good characters. Likewise, Kreia/Traya pretty much acts in a sinister ways and argues for things with evil ends even when she's supposedly posing as a neutral character. As Jolee's opposite, she never does a single noble thing, despite having the same "neutral" alignment as Jolee.

 

Honestly, I feel kind of ripped off here. I don't mind that Jolee was a good character. Heck, I loved Jolee to death. But if they insisted on making Jolee a good character, why did they give his character a neutral alignment in the game? Grah.

[Sturm]

because he doesnt beleive in the lightside, he turned from that path, hes had a lot of bad things happen to him in his life, so this would effect his allignment to the light, and he doesnt really beleive in the things of the darkside

[Benfea]

No, he turned away from the Jedi Order, not from good.

[Sturm]

of course, thats what i meant, my bad

[The Great Phantom]

There is no GREY SIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry, had to rant there for a minute...

 

In Star Wars, you're either good, bad, or a little of both at DIFFERENT times. The only people that 'fools' call Grey Jedi are Jedi that don't serve the Council any more, like Kyle Katarn (maybe) or Zez-Kai-Ell, or Jolee Bindo. That DOES NOT mean that they are 'evil'. Even good guys can use Dark Side powers (Luke using Choke, Katarn using insanely powerful Grip or Lightning, even if he is 'good'), but they always serve a side. ("Apathy is Death").

 

If you want neutrality, then play D&D. If you want polar opposites, with people trying to find where they fit in it all, then play Star Wars.

[Canaan Aphettu]

Well said, Phantom.

 

But I do agree about Jolee's allignment - he should've been LS. It worked well keeping Kreia on the borderline, because her true identity as Kreia was meant to be a plot twist, and I'd assume that Kreia has the ability to shield her true allignment from even those who are strong with the Force.

[The Great Phantom]

Well, granted, there was no reason for him to be neutral... he should've just been good, but perhaps he was grey because, instead of trying to influence the character's actions, he was content to observe and council...

 

You only earn LS points for doing (most of the time, at least... ).

[Bulgarian Jedi]

Well, Jolee had a little blue fog behind him on the show character menu, but I think he was neutral so that there is a party member that can use force powers from both sides without penalties (but also with no bonuses). If you are LS, he is the one who can use Lightning and all the other DS powers the most.

 

The other explanations make good sense too.

[Benfea]

There is no GREY SIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry, had to rant there for a minute...

 

In Star Wars, you're either good, bad, or a little of both at DIFFERENT times. The only people that 'fools' call Grey Jedi are Jedi that don't serve the Council any more, like Kyle Katarn (maybe) or Zez-Kai-Ell, or Jolee Bindo. That DOES NOT mean that they are 'evil'. Even good guys can use Dark Side powers (Luke using Choke, Katarn using insanely powerful Grip or Lightning, even if he is 'good'), but they always serve a side. ("Apathy is Death").

 

If you want neutrality, then play D&D. If you want polar opposites, with people trying to find where they fit in it all, then play Star Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wasn't complaining about neutrality in terms of the choices available to the player, that discussion has already happened enough, I think.

 

I'm talking about the listed alignment of NPCs and how they just don't jive with the NPC's actions.

 

Jolee Bindo was not a neutral character. He was as goody-two-shoes as any other NPC in the game, yet he was listed in game as neutral. Darth Traya may have been kicked out of the Sith Order by her own students, but she never really stopped being Sith, which is evidenced by the fact that she derides you anytime you do something good and praises you whenever you do something ruthless. In the end, she's just another faction of the Sith, a faction that happens to consist of only one person.

 

You know, there are NPCs that I would consider morally neutral, but of course they aren't listed that way at all. Meh.

[Benfea]

Well, granted, there was no reason for him to be neutral... he should've just been good, but perhaps he was grey because, instead of trying to influence the character's actions, he was content to observe and council...

 

You only earn LS points for doing (most of the time, at least... ).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except that he doesn't just passively observe despite his claims otherwise. If your character turns to the dark side, he turns on you and you have to kill him. If you follow the path of the light side, he remains your ally and fights at your side.

[The Great Phantom]

So? That's just him being himself in times of stress...

 

I see where you're coming from now... I just hate all mention of 'grey characters' is all.

[Jediphile]

Gray jedi are not "in between". They are not dark jedi and they are not Sith. You could call them "good", but only after a fashion.

 

Unlike the "proper" jedi, the gray jedi are simply jedi who have left the order and no longer feel compelled to follow the code. That's it. That's all there is to it. At least as far as I can tell...

 

But I don't agree that Jolee is a "do-gooder". Jolee went into seclusion not caring what happened in the galaxy around him (Mandalorian Wars, for example). He also does not feel compelled to reveal Revan's identity to him, though not because he heeds the council's wishes in the matter. Jolee simply does what he thinks is right and nothing else.

 

If he behaves in a "benign" manner towards Revan, then it's only because he feel like doing so. He also doesn't scold Revan for using the force to his own advantage in a few situations. If you Force Persuade your way around paying the docking fee on Manaan, Jolee is not going to tell you off for it - on the contrary, he'll tell you that the council wouldn't agree, but that sometimes you need to do what you need to do.

[The Great Phantom]

Then couldn't you call them something like "ex-Jedi" or "maverick Jedi" or something that signifies a willingness to use "necessary Force" without suggesting somebody that is supposed to be both good and evil at the same time?

 

...

[Guest The Architect]

Whoa you guys are wrong. Jolee was not a DS character because he wasn't 'evil' but he wasn't a LS character either because although he did the right thing and in one sense was a goody two-shoes he didn't exactly kiss ass or want to help any person in need of help, he liked to stay out of affairs more than anything which makes him neutral...

[The Great Phantom]

But the Jedi do that a lot, too, so doesn't that make him fit right in?

[LunarG]

I suppose the term "gray jedi" is pretty bad, cause most people would see grey as a mix of black and white, or as a color representing "something in between".

 

As far as i can make out, there's no place it says that Jolee is "neutral". Like most people he does what he sees as being right, because that's what would result in the best for our selves. That's no the Jedi way. Jedi do what they see as "rigth" for the greater good, wether or not it's a good thing for the individual Jedi. Jolee isn't likely to sacrifice his own life to save one innocent person. A "normal" Jedi might perfectly well do so, because that's what's expected of him.

 

What makes Jolee "gray" though, is that he doesn't always agree with the Jedi Code. He wants to follow his gut instincts. He wants to be allowed to care about people, or despise them. These are things not encuraged by the Jedi Code.

It does NOT however, mean that he is a little bit "evil". It just means he allows himself a bit of freedom to be like most people, that other Jedi don't. It's that simple.

 

I mean, take a look at yourselves... If you had the powers of a Jedi, don't tell me you wouldn't be tempted to exploit it a little bit to your own advantage. Could make you very rich. And sure, you might just make the neigbours new car's tires all explode at once one morning when he's running late for work... You'd love to see the look on his face huh?

These are things a Jedi would NOT do...

 

But I don't believe for a second that any of you would be killing off people, even just a single one, just because you're not following the Jedi Code.

Come on...you'd be much more likely to do good things... Even if you're not looking to do so. I mean, you happen to come across a person who has injured himself. Wouldn't you heal him? Or wouldn't you if you could stop some drunk **** from beating up other people in the bar?

 

Jolee is gray in terms of not living by the Jedi Code... And actually seeing some sense even in the teachings of the Sith. But in general, he's like most people. Minding his own business, and doing onto others as he would have others do unto him.

 

That's my view of things anyway...

[The Great Phantom]

*Claps*

 

Only beef with that statement: Jolee hates the Sith. He will not bow to them, and he likely resents them for "taking his wife away from him" or something like that.

[Benfea]

*Claps*

 

Only beef with that statement: Jolee hates the Sith. He will not bow to them, and he likely resents them for "taking his wife away from him" or something like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whereas he doesn't actively hate the Jedi, he simply disagrees with them on certain minutiae.

[CrowPusher]

I see it as him not being terribly active to either side, really. Everyone seems to agree that Jolee bindo doesn't DO anything that's really, really terrible, but neither does he do anything of major good.

 

He also says some very "druidic" things on Kashyyk...

 

 

besides that, I outright disagree that DnD is better for grey characters than star wars. Sure, it doesn't give a name to it - but you can basically do the same archetypes, as they're both based on myth and legend.

Edited March 12, 2006 by CrowPusher

[DeathScepter]

Jedi, Grey Jedi, and Shadow Jedi do favor the light side of the force.

 

It is how they practice the Jedi Code is what separates them from each other.

[Jediphile]

*Claps*

 

Only beef with that statement: Jolee hates the Sith. He will not bow to them, and he likely resents them for "taking his wife away from him" or something like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So?

 

Carth hates the sith too - he isn't a jedi. You don't need to be a jedi to hate the sith. Heck, you could be a dark jedi and still hate the sith - that would be a character who has decided to fight and kill the sith by any means necessary, fighting fire with fire.

 

And along similar thoughts, I guess Jolee is different from other jedi in that he while he might do just the same as the jedi, he does so for different reasons. Members of the jedi order exist to serve the (light side of the) force. Note something the masters say in the meeting on Dantooine in K2:

 

"The last Jedi conclave was on Katarr, a Miraluka colony. And all of Katarr was destroyed, all of the Jedi killed...Including Master Zhar... Master Vandar... Including Master Zhar. Master Vandar. A Jedi doesn't care if he dies. Everyone does, but when we fight, when we sacrifice ourselves, it is for others, for the greater good."

 

The members of the jedi order believe that they are servants to something greater, something that is superior to themselves - the force. They don't claim to understand its wishes, but they serve it regardless and blindly, if need be, trusting completely that the will of the force is wise and omniscient.

 

That's where Jolee would disagree. He will not sacrifice his life blindly, nor will he blindly serve the force. Jolee lost his faith in the force after what happened to his wife. He doesn't hate the force as Kreia does, but he doesn't see it as something greater that must be served either. Or maybe it's just that he can no longer see himself as a worthy servant of the force after what has happened in his life. It's probably a little of both...

[Mahf]

In KotOR I and II, we have supposedly neutral characters who are anything but.

 

During the course of KotOR I, Jolee Bindo never does a single evil thing and is pretty much indistinguishable from any of the good characters. Likewise, Kreia/Traya pretty much acts in a sinister ways and argues for things with evil ends even when she's supposedly posing as a neutral character. As Jolee's opposite, she never does a single noble thing, despite having the same "neutral" alignment as Jolee.

 

Honestly, I feel kind of ripped off here. I don't mind that Jolee was a good character. Heck, I loved Jolee to death. But if they insisted on making Jolee a good character, why did they give his character a neutral alignment in the game? Grah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually Jolee is neutral between the light and darkside, or between Good and Evil if you want to use typical alignment terms. Evil means actively seeking to harm or take advantage of others and good means you are selfless and do what is good no matter what. Neutral means you are basically a decent person but you're not going to go out of your way or risk too much unless its something really important. Which describes Jolee perfectly.

 

Many people misunderstand this. Neutral does not mean your schizophrenic or lack a true philosophy, so sometimes you do good things and sometimes you do bad things depending on how you feel that day. It just means you're not evil, you'll help people if you're in a position to, or if its something really important, but you're not going around looking for people to help. Jolee is the quintessential Chaotic Neutral character: he does not like order, preferring to go by his own judgment and live outside of institutions and establishments, he keeps mostly to himself, but when something really important comes up he's willing to help.

 

As far as the Force goes, Jolee is neutral because he believes there is value in things like passion and probably even anger as long as you face it and choose not to give yourself up to it completely. He finds the path of the Jedi too inhuman but he has not fallen to the Dark Side. So he's the perfect gray character.

 

Kreia is gray in the sense that she uses the Dark and the Light merely as tools, truely giving herself to neither. When she falls, she does so purposefully, to give the Exile the strongest possible obstacle so he will be strong enough to help Revan/stop the True Sith or whatever.

[Jediphile]

Actually Jolee is neutral between the light and darkside, or between Good and Evil if you want to use typical alignment terms. Evil means actively seeking to harm or take advantage of others and good means you are selfless and do what is good no matter what.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I disagree. To be evil is to be selfish and put your own interest above the well-being of others. Nobody sees it as a goal onto itself to go out and actively harm other people (except psychopaths), unless they're incredibly clich

[Benfea]

If you view the alignment as a meter for political faction, then yeah, Jolee is neutral. He left the Jedi order because -- of all things -- he was mad at them for forgiving him when he couldn't forgive himself.

 

However if you view alignment as a guage of morality, the Jolee is unequivocably not neutral. He does any number of things in the name of good (e.g. he tags along to keep tabs on Revan, which is why you have to kill him if you turn to the dark side), but I can't think of a single thing Jolee does that I could call evil. A good example is Jolee's reaction to Sunry's act of murder. Although Jolee ultimately bites his lip and keeps his mouth shut in front of the authorities, behind closed doors he takes Sunry to task for the manner in which he killed that Sith. Even if the person Sunry killed was evil, the manner in which he did so was clearly wrong and Jolee says so. A morally neutral or evil character would not have had compunctions about using evil means to remove an evil person.

[Jediphile]

If you view the alignment as a meter for political faction, then yeah, Jolee is neutral. He left the Jedi order because -- of all things -- he was mad at them for forgiving him when he couldn't forgive himself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but I actually see that as an example of why you cannot gauge a character's political faction by his alignment in that system. Jolee left because they forgave him, while he couldn't himself.

 

Jolee: "I had trained Nayama against their wishes. I had failed to kill her when I had the chance, and she went on to kill others.It was a travesty, of course. I told you that even the Jedi were capable of great injustices, didn't I?But I deserved to be tried. They found me innocent.Even though I... deserved every punishment and more... they let me go. Mitigating circumstances, they said. I deserved compassion, they said.That... that was when the Jedi left me. That was when they failed me.They may have been able to forgive me. I... could never forgive myself."

 

Is this an indication that he has a lesser ethical standard that the jedi order? I'd say it is more likely to indicate the opposite - he left because they failed to live up to his own standard. It's similar to people atheists who don't go to church of follow the bible, but still consider what is preached not out of some fear of what punishment they might receive in the afterlife, but simply because their ethics and conscience bid them to do so.

 

However if you view alignment as a guage of morality, the Jolee is unequivocably not neutral. He does any number of things in the name of good (e.g. he tags along to keep tabs on Revan, which is why you have to kill him if you turn to the dark side), but I can't think of a single thing Jolee does that I could call evil. A good example is Jolee's reaction to Sunry's act of murder. Although Jolee ultimately bites his lip and keeps his mouth shut in front of the authorities, behind closed doors he takes Sunry to task for the manner in which he killed that Sith. Even if the person Sunry killed was evil, the manner in which he did so was clearly wrong and Jolee says so. A morally neutral or evil character would not have had compunctions about using evil means to remove an evil person.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True. The thing about Jolee is that he doesn't care so much for the rules, but as you've just demonstrated, he clearly considers things on a moral basis. He's fine with you using your mind-affecting force powers to avoid paying a landing fee for the Ebon Hawk, because it really doesn't matter much on the greater scale of things, but he cannot just blindly accept that a guilty man go free without speaking out against it, even if he has to accept it in the end as the lesser evil that must be accepted to serve the greater good.

 

Alignment is a measure of a character's moral and ethical standards only. Since the Sith follow a code that usually embraces evil acts and the jedi order preaches morality and "good" acts, it will usually look like jedi=good, sith=evil, and other=neutral. But that's just on the surface of things. Atris turned evil, but was she actually a sith? Not according to herself. And she wasn't one of "The Sith Lords" of the game's title either. The "jedi=good / sith=evil" perspective only works if you look at the matter in a very superficial way - once you look carefully at it, that perspective doesn't work because it's too simplistic to describe complex characters.

 

Well, we really shouldn't discuss alignments. They are always problematic in (A)D&D and always will be (my own P&P game got much easier after I outlawed them for the players - I use alignments as a GM for the PCs and NPCs, but only as a GM's tool). KotOR thankfully outlawed them in the games as well, which is a good thing, because it saves us a lot of headaches.