The bravest woman in the middle east

[Surreptishus]

Oh well do tell why you might be more at risk, then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never implied anything of the sort, I contended that you could not make an assumption based on a complete absence of relevant knowledge - I reserve the right to keep my religious and ethnic background private.

 

She's not criticising the religion. She's speaking out about how many members of that religion are behaving and how contrary it is to what they are supposed to believe in. They ask for respect by using violence when they did nothing to earn that respect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'll have to watch the video again to make sure but the impression i got was that she failed to make a distinction between extremist and non extremist muslims. Even if she did state the difference, its still pretty much a drop in the ocean since there are already muslims who criticise the way that extremists interpret Islam e.g. the women in Afghanistan that go to work (as mentioned by walsingham earlier).

[Lucius]

I never implied anything of the sort, I contended that you could not make an assumption based on a complete absence of relevant knowledge - I reserve the right to keep my religious and ethnic background private.

Nah that won't work, you tell us NOW!!1 or I'll blow u up like I did Volo. :angry:

[Volourn]

"Anyway I'm a total non-believer and religion is for the lazy and retarded."

 

The same can be said for those wo over simplify such complex issues. You sound as religious as the most religious person - you have the belief that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe must be reatrded and lazy amongst other nasty name calling.

[astr0creep]

Meh. She's probably having her head hacked off as we fill this thread with half-nonsense and speculation anyway.

[Kaftan Barlast]

its just another atheist criticising a religion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Often a bystander is in a much better position to analyze something than someone directly involved.

 

 

Then again, we know why the ME looks like it does in terms of human rights etc. and that is because we in the west forcibly interrupted the process of demcoratisation. A practical example was the removal of the democraticly elected Iranian President Mossadeq was overthrown in 1953 by a joint US-British effort because he made the mistake of nationalising the oil. He was replaced by the Shah of Iran who was disliked and was overthrown by muslim extremists in 1979 and its only gone downhill since then.

 

 

and thats only the tip of the iceberg.

[~Di]

I'd say anyone, male or female, who publicly criticizes any aspect of Islam or Muslim extremism is putting themselves in some jeopardy. People... lots of people, but don't bother asking me for a list of them just to be argumentative... have died for doing just that. So I'd say the woman is showing considerable more courage than, say, folks on an internet message board who are trying to downplay what she has done.

 

That said, I agree that the day-to-day courage of women who live under the oppressive arm of Sharia law and strive to educate themselves in the face of potential death or disfigurement are the true heroines. Unfortunately, the world doesn't much care about them. Out of sight, out of mind, I suppose.

Edited March 6, 2006 by ~Di

[astr0creep]

"Anyway I'm a total non-believer and religion is for the lazy and retarded."

 

The same can be said for those wo over simplify such complex issues. You sound as religious as the most religious person - you have the belief that anyone who doesn't believe what you believe must be reatrded and lazy amongst other nasty name calling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How is the issue complex? You either believe or you don't. Either you respect your fellow man or you don't. Either you keep an open mind or you don't. Nothing too complex here.

[Dark Moth]

Anyway I'm a total non-believer and religion is for the lazy and retarded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hee hee. Atheists such as yourself make me glad I'm not one of you.

[astr0creep]

Anyway I'm a total non-believer and religion is for the lazy and retarded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hee hee. Atheists such as yourself make me glad I'm not one of you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hee hee. Brainwashed believers such as yourself make me glad I'm not one of you.

[thepixiesrock]

You should both stop now before you each make even bigger fools of yourselves.

[Dark Moth]

Hee hee. Brainwashed believers such as yourself make me glad I'm not one of you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice. Criticizing someone's beliefs is one thing, but downright insulting and degrading others for what they believe is wrong and only makes you look like an idiot. It's just a testament to your lack of maturity and desire to understand. How old are you? Anyway, in case you don't realize it, it only makes yourself look bad.

People have their own beliefs, and some have rather good reasons for following their beliefs. It's none of your business to pass judgement on billions of people worldwide based on how they choose to live their lives. If I said something like "atheism is for morons and as*holes", you wouldn't like that, would you? Then don't do the same to others.

Edited March 6, 2006 by Mothman

[astr0creep]

You should both stop now before you each make even bigger fools of yourselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, this is not the first time me and Mothman clash over religion. We are complete opposites.

 

I do respect his beliefs however, no matter what insults I've written above just to p**s him off.

I'm also surprised ANYONE would actually read anything little old me would write and actually care enough to write back. My life has shown me that nobody cares. So why should I? And why should Mothman?

 

I do admire people who believe very strongly. I don't and it can be depressing sometimes.

Edited March 6, 2006 by astr0creep

[WITHTEETH]

Your a good guy Astro. I care, and I even bet mothman does astro!

 

:D

[alanschu]

Nice. Criticizing someone's beliefs is one thing, but downright insulting and degrading others for what they believe is wrong and only makes you look like an idiot.

 

Maybe I'm confused here, but did you not just do the exact same thing in the post immediately preceding his?

[Dark Moth]

Nice. Criticizing someone's beliefs is one thing, but downright insulting and degrading others for what they believe is wrong and only makes you look like an idiot.

 

Maybe I'm confused here, but did you not just do the exact same thing in the post immediately preceding his?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was not insulting him. More like very sharply criticizing him for what he said. But honestly, when someone calls everyone who follows some sort of religion a retard and/or lazy, would you be surprised if someone got defensive? Also, I was referring mostly to the first post he made, not the one I had just quoted.

Edited March 6, 2006 by Mothman

[alanschu]

No, I just thought it was bizarre that you quoted a post, that was a mimic of yours and you criticized him for his post.

[jaguars4ever]

A brave arabic woman one speaks against muslim clergy.

 

It was on Al-Jazeera two weeks ago. Hats off to that woman, too bad she'll probably "dissapear" before this years end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow - she was scintillating with such wisdom not seen in that part of the world. Not to mention that fanatic d00d's interjection was quashed with total pwnage. :D

[astr0creep]

A brave arabic woman one speaks against muslim clergy.

 

It was on Al-Jazeera two weeks ago. Hats off to that woman, too bad she'll probably "dissapear" before this years end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow - she was scintillating with such wisdom not seen in that part of the world. Not to mention that fanatic d00d's interjection was quashed with total pwnage. :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

She should get a "woman of the year" award. Every word she said was 100% bullseye.

 

Oh and for Mothman and anyone insulted by my comments :

 

I'm not very PC I guess.

When I say lazy, I mean that to me, it is lazy to just let a God solve problems or influence your life. "Oh no I'm in trouble! Well I pray all the time so God will take care of me, thats what God wants". YOU are in charge of your life and only you can make things happen and influence what happens with your life. Not God.

Instead of "retarded", I should've used another term, like "naive" or something. To me, worshipping a God is barbaric, it is a lack of evolution, it is closing your eyes to many truths, like leaders of certain countries who use religion as a means to gather support for their causes/goals. People are so blinded by their religious beliefs that they will fly a plane in a skyscraper because their leader, a human being, told them they would reach a kind of heaven if they did.

 

Thats what I think, as a non-believer. And I'm not trying to make anyone believe a word a say, only explaining what I think is the truth.

 

What I believe, if you can call it a belief, is that we are organic machines. To die is to stop functionning, like an old car. Nothing happens, we just shut down. Our function is to contribute to the life and the evolution of the planet, like cells in the human body. Nothing more.

 

That's my "belief".

Edited March 7, 2006 by astr0creep

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

My main problem with religious types is that you guys don't leave people alone.

 

It seems that every other day I am walking down the street or I my door buzzer rings that I get harassed by Christians. Just yesterday, while I was trying to sleep after my 10 hour night shift 2 stupid assed Christian types buzzed my door and wanted to "save" my soul. I told them off, that to never come bother me again, and another time that their little church group comes around I plan on suing them for harassment. That got them to leave in a hurry. If I wanted to "bring Jesus into my heart" I would go to one of the three freaking dozen churches that are in the city I live in.

 

I don't care if you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever. MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS AND LEAVE ME ALONE. If people just leave each other alone, practiced thier beliefs in private, and not bother those who don't share the same faith or have a faith the world would be better off.

Edited March 7, 2006 by 6 Foot Invisible Rabbit

[astr0creep]

My main problem with religious types is that you guys don't leave people alone.

 

It seems that every other day I am walking down the street or I my door buzzer rings that I get harassed by Christians.  Just yesterday, while I was trying to sleep after my 10 hour night shift 2 stupid assed Christian types buzzed my door and wanted to "save" my soul.  I told them off, that to never come bother me again, and another time that their little church group comes around I plan on suing them for harassment.  That got them to leave in a hurry.  If I wanted to "bring Jesus into my heart" I would go to one of the three freaking dozen churches that are in the city I live in.

 

I don't care if you are Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever.  MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS AND LEAVE ME ALONE.  If people just leave each other alone, practiced thier beliefs in private, and not bother those who don't share the same faith or have a faith the world would be better off.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good point Hades.

[Ginthaeriel]

I'm agnostic, so don't think I'm some crazy Christian trying to "bring Jesus to your soul", or anything. But I would counter that Religion can be used in a very positive way, if done right, and I think you're being a tad bit too cynical.

When I say lazy, I mean that to me, it is lazy to just let a God solve problems or influence your life. "Oh no I'm in trouble! Well I pray all the time so God will take care of me, thats what God wants". YOU are in charge of your life and only you can make things happen and influence what happens with your life. Not God.

But religious people *don't* depend on God to solve all their problems: religion isn't a crux unless you're not really taking the religion seriously and actually believe prayers will help you win the lottery. Most of the deeply religious people I know don't depend on God for anything: anytime they pray, they're only thanking God for what they have, and what they've got.

 

Indeed, wouldn't the religious need to work extra *hard*? They'll be held accountable to whatever moral code they submit to. Technically, Secular Humanism is labelled a "religion". Not all religions have Gods, anyways. Besides, your argument posits that the person in question is only looking to religion to increase their material gains, and that requires that they stil be driven by a greed and desire in the first place, which is a pretty cynical and hopeless outlook on human nature.

 

Would you say Buddhists are lazy for giving away all their worldly possessions, getting rid of their earthly desires through meditation, and finding happiness in a life that seems unfair, chaotic and destructive? The same life which you seem to find contention with, and seek to fight. I'd think it'd be tough trying to transcend the pettiness of life itself, and to me, that's taking charge of your life if anything. Becoming a billionaire requires luck: you can't totally influence your circumstances, even if you don't submit to the belief of a God. Either way, you're still a slave to your reality: only difference is, your reality is a meaningless mess, while that Christian next to you can only see the blessings given to him and the belief in a greater purpose.

Instead of "retarded", I should've used another term, like "naive" or something. To me, worshipping a God is barbaric, it is a lack of evolution, it is closing your eyes to many truths, like leaders of certain countries who use religion as a means to gather support for their causes/goals. People are so blinded by their religious beliefs that they will fly a plane in a skyscraper because their leader, a human being, told them they would reach a kind of heaven if they did.

Isn't some of the greatest spiritual leaders also some of the most intelligent people on Earth? Who said that you had to close your eyes to truth to worship a God?

 

In fact, I would say that for a man to know the realities and horrors of life, and yet still believe in a God, is a mark of a man of great conviction, willpower and strength. It takes guts to believe something that you KNOW may very well not be true, but believe it anyway. That's called a leap of faith: and I can respect that. And I think it's the strength that they derive from that faith which allows the religious man to work against the horrors of reality. Martin Luther King Jr. could have decided that God abandoned him and all the other black people in America: he had every right to. But instead, he used his faith to create change.

 

Certainly there are those who use religion as a means to deceive. But is it really the *religion's* fault that they can do that? And certainly there are those who follow their religion with blind faith because they have never known anything else. But that's just because of their own ignorance. If someone gave those extremists who hijacked the planes in 911 a proper education, and gave them time to try and understand the consequences of their actions, rather than being fed the same propaganda BS from the clergy since they were born, do you think they would have done what they did? Tabula Rasa.

 

And if they got that education and STILL did it, then I would say they have come to terms with themselves, found inner peace, and great conviction: enough to sacrifice their own life for a cause that seems to be morally wrong. They'd be one twisted, psychopathic f*ck, but they'd still have great faith and conviction. That can be respected, irregardless of one's moral inclinations, in my opinion.

[astr0creep]

I'm agnostic, so don't think I'm some crazy Christian trying to "bring Jesus to your soul", or anything. But I would counter that Religion can be used in a very positive way, if done right, and I think you're being a tad bit too cynical.

When I say lazy, I mean that to me, it is lazy to just let a God solve problems or influence your life. "Oh no I'm in trouble! Well I pray all the time so God will take care of me, thats what God wants". YOU are in charge of your life and only you can make things happen and influence what happens with your life. Not God.

But religious people *don't* depend on God to solve all their problems: religion isn't a crux unless you're not really taking the religion seriously and actually believe prayers will help you win the lottery. Most of the deeply religious people I know don't depend on God for anything: anytime they pray, they're only thanking God for what they have, and what they've got.

 

Indeed, wouldn't the religious need to work extra *hard*? They'll be held accountable to whatever moral code they submit to. Technically, Secular Humanism is labelled a "religion". Not all religions have Gods, anyways. Besides, your argument posits that the person in question is only looking to religion to increase their material gains, and that requires that they stil be driven by a greed and desire in the first place, which is a pretty cynical and hopeless outlook on human nature.

 

Would you say Buddhists are lazy for giving away all their worldly possessions, getting rid of their earthly desires through meditation, and finding happiness in a life that seems unfair, chaotic and destructive? The same life which you seem to find contention with, and seek to fight. I'd think it'd be tough trying to transcend the pettiness of life itself, and to me, that's taking charge of your life if anything. Becoming a billionaire requires luck: you can't totally influence your circumstances, even if you don't submit to the belief of a God. Either way, you're still a slave to your reality: only difference is, your reality is a meaningless mess, while that Christian next to you can only see the blessings given to him and the belief in a greater purpose.

Instead of "retarded", I should've used another term, like "naive" or something. To me, worshipping a God is barbaric, it is a lack of evolution, it is closing your eyes to many truths, like leaders of certain countries who use religion as a means to gather support for their causes/goals. People are so blinded by their religious beliefs that they will fly a plane in a skyscraper because their leader, a human being, told them they would reach a kind of heaven if they did.

Isn't some of the greatest spiritual leaders also some of the most intelligent people on Earth? Who said that you had to close your eyes to truth to worship a God?

 

In fact, I would say that for a man to know the realities and horrors of life, and yet still believe in a God, is a mark of a man of great conviction, willpower and strength. It takes guts to believe something that you KNOW may very well not be true, but believe it anyway. That's called a leap of faith: and I can respect that. And I think it's the strength that they derive from that faith which allows the religious man to work against the horrors of reality. Martin Luther King Jr. could have decided that God abandoned him and all the other black people in America: he had every right to. But instead, he used his faith to create change.

 

Certainly there are those who use religion as a means to deceive. But is it really the *religion's* fault that they can do that? And certainly there are those who follow their religion with blind faith because they have never known anything else. But that's just because of their own ignorance. If someone gave those extremists who hijacked the planes in 911 a proper education, and gave them time to try and understand the consequences of their actions, rather than being fed the same propaganda BS from the clergy since they were born, do you think they would have done what they did? Tabula Rasa.

 

And if they got that education and STILL did it, then I would say they have come to terms with themselves, found inner peace, and great conviction: enough to sacrifice their own life for a cause that seems to be morally wrong. They'd be one twisted, psychopathic f*ck, but they'd still have great faith and conviction. That can be respected, irregardless of one's moral inclinations, in my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Those are all very good points and I agree with most of them. You basically said what I could not, about why I respect believers.

 

BIG FAT EDIT: I took about an hour to write back at all your points. And then I erased it all. Because there is no point in debating this.

 

There is no God or Gods or divinities. There are no souls either. When we die, nothing happens. Our bodies decompose into the earth, feed other living creatures and the circle of life continues. If you know that your only purpose in existence is simply to live and then die, religion becomes completely pointless, aside from giving some illusionary sense of security and confort.

[Hurlshort]

A lot of atheists seem to have a superiority complex. I'm not led by blind faith. I don't believe in a higher power because it's the easy thing to do. I believe because I look around and see beauty everywhere. Nothing about our world makes me think it's just a random string of events. I see purpose and order all around us. Just close your mind and think about a loved one. Can you explain your feelings? Probably not in adequate words, but that does not mean those feelings don't exist.

[astr0creep]

A lot of atheists seem to have a superiority complex.  I'm not led by blind faith.  I don't believe in a higher power because it's the easy thing to do.  I believe because I look around and see beauty everywhere.  Nothing about our world makes me think it's just a random string of events.  I see purpose and order all around us.  Just close your mind and think about a loved one.  Can you explain your feelings?  Probably not in adequate words, but that does not mean those feelings don't exist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Exactly. And it has NOTHING to do with God or who/whatever.

Edited March 7, 2006 by astr0creep

[SteveThaiBinh]

A lot of atheists seem to have a superiority complex.

As do plenty of Christians, Muslims and others. I hear atheist speakers on the radio saying that religion is a mental illness and I wince, because they're not speaking on my behalf, but equally I hear religious participants in discussion programmes who are very respectful of each other but contemptuous of secular humanism - and there's usually no humanist allowed to join the debate. Meangingful exchange of ideas can best take place in an atmosphere of mutual respect and tolerance, and it's possible to explain why we think the other side is wrong without being insulting about it.