Wot, no Tolkein?

[Blarghagh]

One word: Merlin.

 

The clich

[metadigital]

...besides the magnificent "Lord of the Rings" he found time to write everything from simple poems & short stories to the world loved "The Hobbit". We also learned from the "History of Middle-Earth" series the voluminous amount of background material he developed to guarantee the LotR was as completely believeable with regard to real time, inserting sub-stories with the main text, creating languages for the different races. etc....

reviewer of Tom Shippey's J.R.R.Tolkien: Author of the Century

 

A real taste for fairy-stories was wakened by philology on the threshold of manhood, and quickened to full life by war.

JRR Tolkien, Tree and Leaf (1964)

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

One word: Merlin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The clich

[Pidesco]

...besides the magnificent "Lord of the Rings" he found time to write everything from simple poems & short stories to the world loved "The Hobbit". We also learned from the "History of Middle-Earth" series the voluminous amount of background material he developed to guarantee the LotR was as completely believeable with regard to real time, inserting sub-stories with the main text, creating languages for the different races. etc....

reviewer of Tom Shippey's J.R.R.Tolkien: Author of the Century

 

A real taste for fairy-stories was wakened by philology on the threshold of manhood, and quickened to full life by war.

JRR Tolkien, Tree and Leaf (1964)

[Azarkon]

It's certainly interesting to imagine what would modern fantasy be like without Tolkien. Both the original Wizardry series and D&D are undoubtedly influenced by Tolkien. But I'm of the mind that inventions occur not so much as the result of singular genius but rather are the culmination of circumstantial forces upon an individual. If Edison did not invent the light bulb, someone else would have. If Tolkien did not invent high fantasy, someone else would have. That is not to say that historically, nothing can be changed, but it is to say that an equivalent to high fantasy would have been "discovered," though not, perhaps, exactly as it is present today - and that this discovery would have corresponded to the same appeals as high fantasy, if that appeal has indeed lasted to the modern day.

 

I don't think people would've just settled for SF, Lovecraft, and Conan because Tolkien never wrote LOTR. The myths have always been there, and high fantasy offers a distinct atmosphere that the aforementioned genres never could have. Therefore, necessity and invention would have collided sooner or later.

[metadigital]

fantasy would have looked completely different without Tolkien.

[Dark_Raven]

fantasy would have looked completely different without Tolkien.

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That is correct. There would be no Forgotten Realms or other D&D settings. Terry Brooks would not be writing about his Shannara either.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

That is correct. There would be no Forgotten Realms or other D&D settings.

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So not all would be bad?

[Volourn]

"Dwarves used to be evil. Just for starters."

 

How old is the Snow White fairy tale?

 

 

"That is correct. There would be no Forgotten Realms or other D&D settings. Terry Brooks would not be writing about his Shannara either."

 

You state this like it's factual. It isn't. It's an opinion/theory based on a 'what if' that is illogical.

 

Fantasy was around before Tolkien. The creators of D&D, Brooks, and other fantasy writers likely won't have gotten their influence from other people and stories. ie. Greek Epics ala Hercules, Conan, Merlin, etc., etc.

 

Afterall, those who 'borrowed' from Tolkien followed his example as he 'borrowed' from earlier writers, tales, and stories as well.

Edited March 5, 2006 by Volourn

[Kaftan Barlast]

I think a lot of peoples lives would have been better if the only fantasy available would have been a 1300 page brick novel that no geek would have the patience to read.

 

 

...on the other hand, that might have caused more people to become trekkies? Hmm..

[Azarkon]

fantasy would have looked completely different without Tolkien.

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I assume you mean "high fantasy," since fantasy (ie sword and sorcery: Conan) existed before Tolkien.

 

Yes, high fantasy might've looked different, but it still would have existed, and it would still have demonstrated the same formal properties of high fantasy, and likely utilized the same set of myths.

 

You're free to debate that, of course, but offer something more substantive.

[Cantousent]

While elves and dwarves did exist in Nordic mythology well before Tolkien penned them, they in no way represented the elves and dwarves that we take as common place today. He created the cultural models that most use today when writing "High Fantasy."

 

People like George R.R. Martin probaly would not have been effected by a lack of Tolkien in a structual sense, but who knows where he draws his inspiration, and who knows if fantasy could even be a profitable endevour without Tolkien.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why use sense, Laozi? You have to fall either in the "Tolkien is God" or the "Tolkien is insignificant" camp. Didn't you know that? hahaha

[Kaftan Barlast]

Yes, high fantasy might've looked different, but it still would have existed, and it would still have demonstrated the same formal properties of high fantasy, and likely utilized the same set of myths.

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Ive read Bilbo and LotR but not anything else even remotely fantasy-related. What is this talk about High, low and regular fantasy?

 

 

We play WFRP and that is described as low-fantasy. I have no idea what that means though.

[Volourn]

"Tolkien is insignificant"

 

Who thinks that in this thread? I surely don't. Afterall, I did mention his influence on other writers...

[Cantousent]

Tolkien didn't create the genre, but he sure as hell had an impact on it. It's funny, because some folks want to give Tolkien credit for creating the genre, other folks feel compelled to downplay his significance. Rubbish.

[Azarkon]

Ive read Bilbo and LotR but not anything else even remotely fantasy-related. What is this talk about High, low and regular fantasy?

 

 

We play WFRP and that is described as low-fantasy. I have no idea what that means though.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_subgenres

[Craigboy2]

What if...

 

J.R.R. Tolkein had been killed during WW1, and had never written his Middle Earth stories?

 

No orcs, no hobbits, none of a great many things, but especially would Fantasy have become popular, and if that didn't happen what would geeks be doing now?

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He didn't create all those things, he borrowed a lot of the creatures from other books and stories and was critized when he wrote LOTR.

[Volourn]

"but he sure as hell had an impact on it."

 

Again, who is saying this stuff?

[Cantousent]

So, you agree that Tolkien had a huge impact on the genre but you don't think he created everything out of thin air, Vol? If that's the case, then I don't see the problem. ...Or at least the problem isn't between us.

[Dark Moth]

"but he sure as hell had an impact on it."

 

Again, who is saying this stuff?

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I thought it was common knowledge...

[Atreides]

Mainstream fantasy would probably still be around but not in th combinations we see them. A lot of the stuff has been expanded on by Wizards, which would arguably have done the same anyway.

[Volourn]

"So, you agree that Tolkien had a huge impact on the genre but you don't think he created everything out of thin air, Vol? If that's the case, then I don't see the problem. ...Or at least the problem isn't between us."

 

Exactly.

[astr0creep]

Anyone who watched all those special features in the LotR box sets knows that Tolkien did the exact same thing George Lucas did. Only he did it first and his success was a complete accident.

 

He was inspired by and adapted old legends and myths, in this case Norse, to his medium of choice, writing. His inspiration is an old Finnish(could be Norway, not sure) song called Kavalah or something(I can never remember) which has never been written down, only learned and sung from one generation to the next in the original Finnish language which is now deader than latin. The song takes days to sing...

 

The song is about fallen gods and their conflicts, beings of music and magics.

 

I am certain someone would've started the fantasy craze if Tolkien would've died in WW1.

 

Instead of Dragons though we would have something very different, maybe flying, ice-breathing giant frogs or something.

Edited March 6, 2006 by astr0creep

[metadigital]

Dragons are a large part of Chinese mythology (although they look significantly different), so dragons would always exist. Just different. Ditto for elves and dwarves. No halflings, though, that came straight from the mind of madness.

[Lucius]

If only Halflings had a planet in Empire at War...