Wot, no Tolkein?

[Walsingham]

What if...

 

J.R.R. Tolkein had been killed during WW1, and had never written his Middle Earth stories?

 

No orcs, no hobbits, none of a great many things, but especially would Fantasy have become popular, and if that didn't happen what would geeks be doing now?

[Volourn]

IIRC, Tolkien didn't create either orcs, or goblins. Or the vasy majority of fantasy races.

 

As for the what (which I hate); fantasy would still be where it is. The only difference, it be someone else that people would be slobbering over.

 

Fantasy is much bigger than one man.

[Kaftan Barlast]

All lies. Tolkien is the sole and only inventor of what would later be raped and molested into the crap kids like to read today.

 

 

 

If Tolkien had died during WW1 it would be quite possible that all geeks would have been Star Trek fans.

[Moose]

Actually Volo is right on this one.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

He didnt create things as much as give names to things. Without his influence an Elf would be a very different thing today.

[Pidesco]

While Tolkien didn't invent "tolkien-style" fantasy, I dare say that without him the whole industry built around it wouldn't exist. Imagine, a whole world without David Eddings' or Terry Brooks' books. Bliss, I say.

[Volourn]

Proof please.

[mkreku]

Proof please.

Right back at ya.

[Volourn]

That's easy. As before, Tolkien didn't create fantasy contrary to popular belief. Most of the creatures, and lore he's credited for existed well before him. Just the story, and actual characters are his.

 

Bottom line is fantasy was here before him, and his being involved doesn't change this.

 

The fact that people lamely give him false credit proves this beyond the pale.

 

One word: Merlin.

 

Game over.

[Pidesco]

Elves like the ones in Tolkien's fiction didn't exist before he invented them. Elves were some kind of tiny forest folk in english folklore. In fact, Tolkien made elves tall, beautiful and noble because he thought that, etymologically, the name "Elf" shouldn't belong to some foolish creatures prancing around in a forest. So "modern" elves are entirely his creation.

[Laozi]

While elves and dwarves did exist in Nordic mythology well before Tolkien penned them, they in no way represented the elves and dwarves that we take as common place today. He created the cultural models that most use today when writing "High Fantasy."

 

People like George R.R. Martin probaly would not have been effected by a lack of Tolkien in a structual sense, but who knows where he draws his inspiration, and who knows if fantasy could even be a profitable endevour without Tolkien.

[Lucius]

Vologic at its best.

[Walsingham]

Exactly as you say. Tolkein made elves and dwarves into what we now think of them as. Dwarves used to be evil. Just for starters.

 

And Orcs are completely his creation. As are hobbits.

[Moose]

Dwarves are still evil tbh

[Hurlshort]

I agree that someone else would have taken the place of Tolkien. There might have been a different spin on fantasy, but the concepts would all be pretty similiar. I'd be glad to get rid of the fancy pants elves as well, I much prefer the little ones in Santa's workshop.

[Pidesco]

Who? The only one I can think of is C.S. Lewis.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

We would probably have a more historically based "fantasy" like Howard perhaps.

[Calax]

elves weren't prancing idiots. they were the harbingers of doom in nordic mythos.

[Spider]

Elves like the ones in Tolkien's fiction didn't exist before he invented them. Elves were some kind of tiny forest folk in english folklore. In fact, Tolkien made elves tall, beautiful and noble because he thought that, etymologically, the name "Elf" shouldn't belong to some foolish creatures prancing around in a forest. So "modern" elves are entirely his creation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought Tolkien's elves were more modeled after the irish Sidhe?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

elf, in Germanic mythology, a type of fairy. Usually represented as tiny people, elves are said to dwell in forests, in the sea, and in the air. Although they can be friendly to man, they are more frequently vengeful and mischievous

 

An elf is a mythical creature of Norse mythology which survived in northern European folklore. Originally a race of minor gods of nature and fertility, elves are often pictured as youthful-seeming men and women of great beauty living in forests and other natural places, underground, or in wells and springs. They have been portrayed to be long-lived or immortal and they have magical powers attributed to them. Following the success of J.R.R. Tolkien's epic The Lord of the Rings

[Spider]

SP, citing your source (wikipedia) is always a nice thing to do, epsecially when copying an entire article.

 

Anyway, a link to why I thought the Sidhe (at least in part) inspired the Tolikenesque version of elves:

 

http://celticsociety.freeservers.com/sidhe.html

 

Some quotes:

this race of beings is described as "gods and not gods", pointing to the fact that they are 'something in between'.

 

It is interesting to note that many of the Irish refer to the sidhe as simply "the gentry", on account of their tall, noble appearance and silvery sweet speech.

 

I don't know how reliable this site is as a source (I googled it), but this is what I've read in the past.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

SP, citing your source (wikipedia) is always a nice thing to do, epsecially when copying an entire article.

 

Anyway, a link to why I thought the Sidhe (at least in part) inspired the Tolikenesque version of elves:

 

http://celticsociety.freeservers.com/sidhe.html

 

Some quotes:

this race of beings is described as "gods and not gods", pointing to the fact that they are 'something in between'.

 

It is interesting to note that many of the Irish refer to the sidhe as simply "the gentry", on account of their tall, noble appearance and silvery sweet speech.

 

I don't know how reliable this site is as a source (I googled it), but this is what I've read in the past.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats just a bit of it. It goes on for ages. I thought I'd pasted up a link.

[Pidesco]

SP, citing your source (wikipedia) is always a nice thing to do, epsecially when copying an entire article.

 

Anyway, a link to why I thought the Sidhe (at least in part) inspired the Tolikenesque version of elves:

 

http://celticsociety.freeservers.com/sidhe.html

 

Some quotes:

this race of beings is described as "gods and not gods", pointing to the fact that they are 'something in between'.

 

It is interesting to note that many of the Irish refer to the sidhe as simply "the gentry", on account of their tall, noble appearance and silvery sweet speech.

 

I don't know how reliable this site is as a source (I googled it), but this is what I've read in the past.

 

 

I've never heard of that. Interesting.

 

What I posted, I read in a book on Tolkien and his interest in philology. THIS book.

[Spider]

I'm far from an authority on the topic. I don't know enough of Tolkien's works or Irish folklore to say anything for sure.

 

But from what I do know, the Sidhe (or at least a part of the sidhe, there are variances) resemble Tolkien's elves a lot more than the norse elves do.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Seems like a good fit. Therein you likely have the Arwen,Arragorn relationship as well.

 

Or Beren and Luthien if you want to go further back.

 

Been one of the most interesting threads on the boards for looking stuff up.