Plano Skywalker Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 ESB gets a pass because it's a fine movie and not just because it's Star Wars. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the dialogue was also much more organic and the romance more believable. there were still some one-liners like "no disintegrations!" or "impressive...most impressive" but nothing overtly cheesy that I can recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 ESB gets a pass because it's a fine movie and not just because it's Star Wars. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> the dialogue was also much more organic and the romance more believable. there were still some one-liners like "no disintegrations!" or "impressive...most impressive" but nothing overtly cheesy that I can recall. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ESB is a very character focused movie. And because the characters are well written it shines through. There is an amazing ammount of character development (perhaps the most of any of the movies) and plot development. And while it still has the special effect sequences. You never feel that the rest of the movie is just an excuse to get to the next one. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Theres another reason why the OT gets an easier ride too. I think someone may have already mentioned it. Because we now take special effects totally for granted (every big budget film has them) movies can't really be carried by the effects anymore like they could. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astr0creep Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Theres another reason why the OT gets an easier ride too. I think someone may have already mentioned it. Because we now take special effects totally for granted (every big budget film has them) movies can't really be carried by the effects anymore like they could. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That, and the special effects were actually better, more "real" than all this CGI crap. When I watch the OT today, I find it aged very well and the effects are still very believable. http://entertainmentandbeyond.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 RoTJ sucks because it has fluffy Ewoky speak all over it, and lame C3P0 story telling. :angry: DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Oh and Stormies would have kicked teddybear ass in any other world than GL's, by right they'd be decorating their armour with fluffy fur. DENMARK! It appears that I have not yet found a sig to replace the one about me not being banned... interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astr0creep Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Oh and Stormies would have kicked teddybear ass in any other world than GL's, by right they'd be decorating their armour with fluffy fur. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Absolutely. If the battle would've been on Kashyyyk, like it was supposed to be before GL's kid asked for more fluffy things, it would've been a much better action sequence. http://entertainmentandbeyond.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Why wasn't Episode 2 more like Episode 5? OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astr0creep Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Why wasn't Episode 2 more like Episode 5? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Because it was written directed by GL. http://entertainmentandbeyond.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I was hoping (against expectation) not to garner simplistic responses. I mean to say: there was a great template for a second film in a trilogy, one that GL had spent great lengths extolling its virtues, yet he didn't follow them when making a new film ... WTF? That's not just insanely stupid, it's bordering on criminal negligence. However much the films of the prequel trilogy made, they EACH could have been bigger than Titanic. Instead they had the literary merits of Big Momma's House 2 and relied soley on franchise momentum to turn a profit. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astr0creep Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I was hoping (against expectation) not to garner simplistic responses. I mean to say: there was a great template for a second film in a trilogy, one that GL had spent great lengths extolling its virtues, yet he didn't follow them when making a new film ... WTF? That's not just insanely stupid, it's bordering on criminal negligence. However much the films of the prequel trilogy made, they EACH could have been bigger than Titanic. Instead they had the literary merits of Big Momma's House 2 and relied soley on franchise momentum to turn a profit. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They were made for kids. The characters are adults, facing adult situations and yet they behave like children. The prequel films are technology driven, not character or story driven. So in the end you end up with nothing more than cold, melted piece of plastic garbage. http://entertainmentandbeyond.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 All true, but ESB was one of the children of that litter, and it shows none of the glaring foibles of its littermates. AotC is just the same as TPM. Even RotS is less like ESB than it should be, considering the similarities of the dramatic position in the narrative arc. Instead, the prequel were turgid, convoluted uncooked spagetti lumps of stories without flavour, with an overdose of diabetic-inducing levels of FX saccharine. Undigestible muck. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plano Skywalker Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 part of the problem may have been the lack of a clearly-defined protagonist. SW movies are always "about" the protagonist but the prequel was also there to just give us backstory on Anakin. Obi-Wan becomes something of a "coprotagonist", in fact, he was the protagonist. But the movies also spent a lot of time on Anakin, who ended up being an antagonist. Perhaps if they spent less time on Anakin and focused more on Obi-Wan (catching the viewer up on Anakin via dialogue), it would have come together better. At any rate, the guy who played Obi-Wan did a great job IMO and held the prequels together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveThaiBinh Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Is it possible that every movie in the Star Wars series was precisely as good as it needed to be, and no better? "An electric puddle is not what I need right now." (Nina Kalenkov) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 No. Because they weren't. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baley Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Yes, there are no good SW movies, but I'm sure that won't stop Mr Lucas from trying, God bless him! The sad thing is that he was once a competent filmmaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I really need to stop reading this topic, since it's nothing but one long slash-fest of GL and the prequels by a bunch of Statler and Waldorf types behaving like crybabies... Honestly, if someone cannot find *anything* positive to say about the prequels, then it's clearly because they're biased and have already *decided* to hate them with a vengeance in any event. And people are so quick to praise the originals. My, how people forget. "Empire Strikes Back" was a great movie - by far the best of the films IMHO, but "Return of the Jedi" was a very mediocre rehash of all the plots that had already been used in the two previous films - another Death Star, another fight between Luke and Vader, another walk by R2 and 3PO across the Tatooine desert, another Rebel Attack on the empire's superweapon... The movies didn't get *that* bad - people just all older and now remember the original trilogy with a good dose of nostalgia. That's okay, but spare us the crap about how GL sold out and messed up - he really didn't change his storytelling that much from RotJ, which anyone can note if they go back and dare to look at that movie with *critical* eyes. The only thing that truly worked for RotJ was the impressive ability to have an evolving finale that lasted 40+ minutes, which is not an easy feat. On the other hand, I don't exactly hear people praising the prequels for its lightsaber battles, which were clearly far more intense and spectacular than in the original trilogy. As for the dialogue - it's bloody Star Wars! It's not a shakespearean play. If I want excellent and clever dialogue, then I read or watch Richard III or Hamlet again, not Star Wars. Besides, not all the dialogue was awful. I liked Padme's comment about the republic's fall: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause". That's not exactly bad. That people don't see this just tells me that they're biased against the prequels. They may not have been great art (and were never supposed to be), but they weren't that awful either. I hate JarJar too, but he's not exactly a major character, no matter how annoying he is. People who can only slash and moan about the prequels are just behaving like a bunch of spoiled kiddies who are whining because GL stole your favorite toy and broke it. Well, build a bridge and get over it! Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Suite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The sad thing is that he was once a competent filmmaker. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When was this, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Suite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 As for the dialogue - it's bloody Star Wars! It's not a shakespearean play. Yes, it's Star Wars, and it sucks, it always has. What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baley Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The sad thing is that he was once a competent filmmaker. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When was this, exactly? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 1973, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Suite Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 (edited) 1973, I think. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And what makes you think the competent film making displayed there was really Lucas? Sometimes a movie comes through due production rather then direction, particularly when Francis Ford Coppola is involved... Edited March 8, 2006 by Lyric Suite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baley Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The direction was solid, unless you can present evidence of Mister Coppola's direct interference, I shall label Lucas a once competent film-maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyric Suite Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 (edited) The direction was solid, unless you can present evidence of Mister Coppola's direct interference, I shall label Lucas a once competent film-maker. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, i can't prove anything, but generally speaking, competent film-makers are usually known to demonstrate their 'competence' through out their career at least a few times. There's two movies in which i've seen Lucas demonstrate some level of compentence, and oddly enough, they were both produced by Coppola. Beyond that, he has demonstated nothing but complete ineptitude. I don't know you, but that seems a little more then strange to me... Edited March 9, 2006 by Lyric Suite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 I really need to stop reading this topic, since it's nothing but one long slash-fest of GL and the prequels by a bunch of Statler and Waldorf types behaving like crybabies... Honestly, if someone cannot find *anything* positive to say about the prequels, then it's clearly because they're biased and have already *decided* to hate them with a vengeance in any event. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The prequels had extensive CGI effects. A great advertisement for ILM. The plot, dialogue, script, acting, entertainment value, etc were completely without merit. And people are so quick to praise the originals. My, how people forget. "Empire Strikes Back" was a great movie - by far the best of the films IMHO, but "Return of the Jedi" was a very mediocre rehash of all the plots that had already been used in the two previous films - another Death Star, another fight between Luke and Vader, another walk by R2 and 3PO across the Tatooine desert, another Rebel Attack on the empire's superweapon... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yep, it was crap too. Just like the next two films: An Ewok Adventure and Ewoks: Battle for Endor. The movies didn't get *that* bad - people just all older and now remember the original trilogy with a good dose of nostalgia. That's okay, but spare us the crap about how GL sold out and messed up - he really didn't change his storytelling that much from RotJ, which anyone can note if they go back and dare to look at that movie with *critical* eyes. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, but it just became neuron-meltingly obvious as his films carried his peculiar filmmaking to its logical extreme. The only thing that truly worked for RotJ was the impressive ability to have an evolving finale that lasted 40+ minutes, which is not an easy feat. On the other hand, I don't exactly hear people praising the prequels for its lightsaber battles, which were clearly far more intense and spectacular than in the original trilogy. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes. Yes. Lightsaber battles. But that was it. As for the dialogue - it's bloody Star Wars! It's not a shakespearean play. If I want excellent and clever dialogue, then I read or watch Richard III or Hamlet again, not Star Wars. Besides, not all the dialogue was awful. I liked Padme's comment about the republic's fall: "So this is how liberty dies... with thunderous applause". That's not exactly bad. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The dialogue wasn't good enough for a dubbed Japanese cartoon. That people don't see this just tells me that they're biased against the prequels. They may not have been great art (and were never supposed to be), but they weren't that awful either. I hate JarJar too, but he's not exactly a major character, no matter how annoying he is. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So what are the redeeming features of the prequels? Lightsaber battles? MORE CGI? People who can only slash and moan about the prequels are just behaving like a bunch of spoiled kiddies who are whining because GL stole your favorite toy and broke it. Well, build a bridge and get over it! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't give a toss about GL and his inability to make films. What I am annoyed at is the time I have lost watching the infantile crap he foisted on us. Talking down to people is no way to tell a story. You might like bright flashing lights and think that makes a good film. I don't. Cf. RotS and Serenity. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted March 9, 2006 Share Posted March 9, 2006 OMG teh prequels suxx0rz!!1%&! FFS teh OT r0xx0rz j00r b0xx0rz!!!1 There. Do I have to throw in a generic joke regarding Lucas' neck perimeter to mesh with the crowd too, or was that enough? - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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