Diamond Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) Why Indigo Prophecy is not an RPG then? edit: *cough*spelling Edited February 26, 2006 by Diamond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nartwak Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Nope. Complete lack of true choice in all those. They all have one fixed way in which things must be done and no other and no alternatives. What the ****? There's a complete lack of true choice in The Sims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Looking only at the overall plot to fit your definition... I guess we should just ignore the matter of all those little quests where you can take LS or DS choices along the way, which all contribute to which outcome you're likely to take in the end... I mean, if we remembered those, then you wouldn't be proved absolutely and totally correct, and so naturally we must ignore them... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But thats exactly what you are doing with Diablo II. You ignoring any roleplaying elements that dont suit your definition. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, I don't ignore them. I just don't think they make for a role-playing experience in my eyes, even though they do try to masquerade as one. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) Why Indigo Prophesy is not an RPG then? You're asking me? Just rambled a quick list. With little effort the list can become 200x bigger... but that might be a bit too much. The current list already makes the point (I hoped) What the ****? There's a complete lack of true choice in The Sims? As is in Boiling Point or the GTA's :D Edited February 26, 2006 by BattleCookiee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 You're asking me? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, it is just one more example to show how difficult it is to define what RPG is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Looking only at the overall plot to fit your definition... MY definition? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're the one who brought KotOR into this. I can understand if you want to retract on the basis of not having a good case, though... I guess we should just ignore the matter of all those little quests where you can take LS or DS choices along the way, which all contribute to which outcome you're likely to take in the end... I mean, if we remembered those, then you wouldn't be proved absolutely and totally correct, and so naturally we must ignore them... Wait. Diablo 2 has sub-quests. You can or cannot complete them! Choice! RPG! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, it just has a few quests that you can leave uncompleted. Whether you want those rewards or not is immaterial - it still will not affect the further plot in the slightest. You'll still face the Smith even if you don't want to find Charsi's hammer. Hence, no choice. Hence, no RPG. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 No, it is just one more example to show how difficult it is to define what RPG is. Tell me about it. Hades one; Deus Ex is a FPS. I must qualify it as a FPS. I cannot qualify it as RPG. Maybe I'll try later to play it as an RPG to see how it is as RPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Why Indigo Prophecy is not an RPG then? edit: *cough*spelling <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Does indigo prophecy have statitics ? Or is it based purely on the players ability to perform a task ? If the it's the latter , then that's why it's not an RPG. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Why Indigo Prophecy is not an RPG then? edit: *cough*spelling <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Does indigo prophecy have statitics ? Or is it based purely on the players ability to perform a task ? If the it's the latter , then that's why it's not an RPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't know Indigo Prophecy at all, so I cannot comment either way. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 No, it just has a few quests that you can leave uncompleted. Whether you want those rewards or not is immaterial - it still will not affect the further plot in the slightest. You'll still face the Smith even if you don't want to find Charsi's hammer. Hence, no choice. Hence, no RPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How did subquests affect the plot of, say, Baldur's Gate 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) You're the one who brought KotOR into this. That was still about your "you must roleplay char X"... WAY before Kotor ever came in the convo! I can understand if you want to retract on the basis of not having a good case, though... What. We do have a good case. As Diablo2 is a RPG... And many games that are not RPG's will become that by your definition No, it just has a few quests that you can leave uncompleted. Whether you want those rewards or not is immaterial - it still will not affect the further plot in the slightest. You'll still face the Smith even if you don't want to find Charsi's hammer. Hence, no choice. Hence, no RPG. Wait? What is the result of Kotor/Kotor2/BG/BG2/IWD/IWD2/PS:T sidequests on the end or the rest of the story? NOTHING. Omg... they are all NOT RPG'S! Maybe that is why they are called SIDEquests... but ofcourse I am wrong on that Damn Diamond for beating me... Does indigo prophecy have statitics ? Or is it based purely on the players ability to perform a task ? If the it's the latter , then that's why it's not an RPG But you play several characters! And your actions influence the rest of the story! Edited February 26, 2006 by BattleCookiee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 What. We do have a good case. As Diablo2 is a RPG... And many games that are not RPG's will become that by your definition <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not my definition, I'm afraid... Take it up with the dictionaries if you disagree... No, it just has a few quests that you can leave uncompleted. Whether you want those rewards or not is immaterial - it still will not affect the further plot in the slightest. You'll still face the Smith even if you don't want to find Charsi's hammer. Hence, no choice. Hence, no RPG. Wait? What is the result of Kotor/Kotor2/BG/BG2/IWD/IWD2/PS:T sidequests on the end or the rest of the story? NOTHING. Omg... they are all NOT RPG'S! Maybe that is why they are called SIDEquests... but ofcourse I am wrong on that <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Depends entirely on whether you play a consistent or opportunist character. KotOR games may not force, but I can tell you that I would be heavily penalized by the GM if I went into "kill everything in sight"-mode on Kashyyyk only to then play pious and protect the weak on Manaan. I know I would treat a player the same myself as a GM It is a sad truth, however, that many CPRGs don't press this point... A player behaving totally DS on one planet and saintly on the next should receive stiff xp penalties or be otherwise penalized by the game mechanics, while consistent play should be rewarded. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 But you play several characters! And your actions influence the rest of the story! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Do the characters have different statistics or any sort of growth ? If not then it's more likely to be classed as adventure than an RPG. Statistical growth seems to be the key factors in appearing on the RPG section of the lists, rather than arcade/adventure or adventure. On Gameplay it's classed as Action/Adventure. Where as Diablo II is classified as a Roleplaying Game. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) Not my definition, I'm afraid... Take it up with the dictionaries if you disagree... Nice definitions you cough up. By that definition D2 is indeed no RPG... BUT neither is Fallout, Fallout 2, Ultima (all), Final Fantasy (all) etc. EDIT; And Risk is the Edited February 26, 2006 by BattleCookiee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Do the characters have different statistics or any sort of growth ? If not then it's more likely to be classed as adventure than an RPG. Fahrenheit IS a Adventure game. Point is that in Jediphile's definition it would be a RPG. Do not confuse the "real" definition of RPG here with the "current" definition we discuss Statistical growth seems to be the key factors in appearing on the RPG section of the lists, rather than arcade/adventure or adventure. On Gameplay it's classed as Action/Adventure. Where as Diablo II is classified as a Roleplaying Game. Hey; don't go sprewing true words now... Diablo II is clearly NOT a RPG; but The Sims is! " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Not my definition, I'm afraid... Take it up with the dictionaries if you disagree... Nice definitions you chough up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How you can possibly call this *my* definition AFTER I GAVE YOU THE BLOODY LINK is completely beyond me... Again, TAKE IT UP WITH THE DICTIONARIES IF YOU DISAGREE... You're also forgetting that I have consistently said that *I* don't consider Diablo 2 to be an RPG. Whether I think of it as one is indisputable - you cannot tell me what I can or should think!! That you try anyway says a lot... " By that definition D2 is indeed no RPG... BUT neither is Fallout, Fallout 2, Ultima (all), Final Fantasy etc.EDIT; And Risk is the Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) Not my definition, I'm afraid... Take it up with the dictionaries if you disagree... Nice definitions you chough up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How you can possibly call this *my* definition AFTER I GAVE YOU THE BLOODY LINK is completely beyond me... Again, TAKE IT UP WITH THE DICTIONARIES IF YOU DISAGREE... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But by the definition you provided Diablo II is an RPG since it's meets all the criteria. Where as it's questionable whether the SIMS could be called an exiting adventure.... Diablo II checklist. 1. Character - yes 2. Fantastic Adventure - yes 3. Random outcomes to actions - yes Edited February 26, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0 I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) How you can possibly call this *my* definition AFTER I GAVE YOU THE BLOODY LINK is completely beyond me... Maybe because you actually clinge to that definition. It would probably not difficult to find another explenation in an other dictionary. Might look it up after making this post in my own! EDIT; my dictonary doesn't even know the word You're also forgetting that I have consistently said that *I* don't consider Diablo 2 to be an RPG. Whether I think of it as one is indisputable - you cannot tell me what I can or should think!! That you try anyway says a lot... " But what you think is a RPG doesn't form the RPG-specifics. I can find Deus Ex a MMORPG... but you can expect that even if it is "my definition" everybody will disagree and try to get me to see it is a FPS/RPG Apart from Risk, all of those games (except perhaps Final Fantasy - I just don't know) have random elements in them that would make them RPGs. Of course you don't roll dice in a computer game - the computer does it for you Really? Does FF or Falout roll a Dice, even if it is a digital one??? And by that definition; Diablo II does role a "digital dice" then... making it a RPG again please try to make sense - it does so help the chances for a constructive debate... DEBATE = ILLEGAL On a more serious note; Actually, that was a request if you couldn't please explain a little better what you actually meant with that part of text which seemed totally independant of ANYTHING discussed here... Edited February 26, 2006 by BattleCookiee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowstrider Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 I tried to read this thread and make sense of it, but I have come to the conclusion that everyone involved in the past page or two posted while under the influence of some sort of intoxicant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 But by the definition you provided Diablo II is an RPG since it's meets all the criteria. Where as it's questionable whether the SIMS could be called an exiting adventure.... Diablo II checklist. 1. Character - yes 2. Fantastic Adventure - yes 3. Random outcomes to actions - yes <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think I place more emphasis on the point where it comes to "assume the roles of characters" than you do. Who do I assume the role of a character that I know nothing about? I may know a little about what powers the sorceress has or can get or what the paladin's principles are, but that's not much basis on which to "assume the role of a character". Who were this character's parents? Where did he/she grow up? Why did he become a paladin (or whatever class)? Who were his/her friends during the various parts of his life? What are the long-term goals of the character? There are no answers to those questions in a game like Diablo 2, and so the characters have no substance - they are nothing more than devices or tools by which the player interacts with the game. And either their motives and perceptions don't matter in the plot at all or else, worse, they don't even have any. Not so in KotOR, Fallout, Ultima and a host of other games already mentioned, and which I therefore consider to be RPGs. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nartwak Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Who're the Vault Dweller's parents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowPaladin V1.0 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Who do I assume the role of a character that I know nothing about? I may know a little about what powers the sorceress has or can get or what the paladin's principles are, but that's not much basis on which to "assume the role of a character". Who were this character's parents? Where did he/she grow up? Why did he become a paladin (or whatever class)? Who were his/her friends during the various parts of his life? What are the long-term goals of the character? There are no answers to those questions in a game like Diablo 2, and so the characters have no substance - they are nothing more than devices or tools by which the player interacts with the game. And either their motives and perceptions don't matter in the plot at all or else, worse, they don't even have any. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There are no answers to questions like that in PnP either. Part of your "roleplaying" task is to answer those questions and thus determine a personality for the character before you start the game. This personality then becomes the measure by which a character will act. Usual example - A character who's parents were killed by orcs may kill every orc they see. Even those not showing hostile intent. So as there are no answers to those questions in PnP either, thats hardly a reason to disqualify Diablo II. And you will find what you need in the Diablo II character section with regards to starting points for character histories. I have to agree with Volourn. Bioware is pretty much dead now. Deals like this kills development studios. 478327[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleCookiee Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 (edited) Who were this character's parents? Where did he/she grow up? Why did he become a paladin (or whatever class)? Who were his/her friends during the various parts of his life? What are the long-term goals of the character? Let's answer said questions for Revan/Exile Parents: unknown/unknown Grow up: unknown/said ingame but forgot. Could be implentation of Jedi Council Why a Jedi?: unknown/unknown Friends?: unknown/Malak long-term goals: unknown/unknown (end dependant) I tried to read this thread and make sense of it, but I have come to the conclusion that everyone involved in the past page or two posted while under the influence of some sort of intoxicant. What *hic* do yah *hic* mean *sniff*? Edited February 26, 2006 by BattleCookiee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 How you can possibly call this *my* definition AFTER I GAVE YOU THE BLOODY LINK is completely beyond me... Maybe because you actually clinge to that definition. It would probably not difficult to find another explenation in an other dictionary. Might look it up after making this post in my own! EDIT; my dictonary doesn't even know the word You're also forgetting that I have consistently said that *I* don't consider Diablo 2 to be an RPG. Whether I think of it as one is indisputable - you cannot tell me what I can or should think!! That you try anyway says a lot... " But what you think is a RPG doesn't form the RPG-specifics. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Have I claimed that? I've said that *I* don't think of Diablo 2 (or even Diablo 1) as an RPG and I've given a link. Discuss the link all you like, just don't slam me for it if you disagree. And don't presume to tell me what I can and cannot think of Diablo 2. I'll make up my own mind on that, if you don't mind, and even if you do... I can find Deus Ex a MMORPG... but you can expect that even if it is "my definition" everybody will disagree and try to get me to see it is a FPS/RPG <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah, now I know you're wrong, because I'm part of "everybody else", and I don't know Deus Ex and so couldn't say. And besides, I really wouldn't care... Really? Does FF or Falout roll a Dice, even if it is a digital one??? And by that definition; Diablo II does role a "digital dice" then... making it a RPG again <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I guess I could roll my eyes too, but then I don't have the time, if I had to do justice to just how much I'm doing in in RL now... When you're done, maybe you should see my other reply, before you continue. Then again, nothing ruins a good discussion as much as someone who knows what he's talking about, so maybe not... please try to make sense - it does so help the chances for a constructive debate... DEBATE = ILLEGAL On a more serious note; Actually, that was a request if you couldn't please explain a little better what you actually meant with that part of text which seemed totally independant of ANYTHING discussed here... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, of course... My bad for trying to say that consistent role-playing should be significant to the role-playing experience... Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jediphile Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Who're the Vault Dweller's parents? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The point is that you can answer most of those questions, and the rest are fairly obvious. We may not know the names of the Vault Dweller's parents, but we know enough about his/her background to presume the rest. Visit my KotOR blog at Deadly Forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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