KotoR 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[maia]

Personally, I'd just prefer to play Revan who is crippled after surviving some cinematic catastrophe by sheer Force Power. Regrettably, s/he is terribly weakened by it and needs to regain strength and recruit new allies before tackling those pesky True Sith again . IMHO, this would make vastly more sense than a new protagonist.

 

If it absolutely _has_ to be a new PC, there needs to be an explanation why fate of the galaxy comes to reside in the hands of a weak newb. Say what you will, but conventions of RPGs require the PC to be the one doing stuff and making decisions. "Assisting" Revan and Exile just won't work IMHO. Even when it looked like Bastila was in charge in KOTOR, all the calls were being made by the PC - which felt somewhat clunky. And there is a nightmare with letting the player to define Revan's and Exile's genders and alignments and even so it would look dumb if they are both permanently masked and never speak, etc. It is just too complicated.

 

So, being hit by a Force bundle, as Astrocreep suggested is as good a reason for the PC to become a mover and shaker as any.

 

Or maybe have the PC posessed by a Force Ghost, perhaps even Revan's? Actually, it might be a good solution. Revan is killed by the True Sith, but is too stubborn/desperate to die and concede defeat. The PC is a normal person (non-human races possible) with latent Force abilities, or perhaps a Force Sensitive in training and is in a right place at a right time to get posessed by Revan's ghost. Revan's gender and alignment could be established in 2 sentences in a conversation with first NPC of the game.

Then the PC does a few introductory quests, arrives at the fated location and gets posessed - shown by a grand but confusing visual sequence. Henceforth some people sense the ghost or its power and defer to it, some (True Sith) hunt the PC, etc. The ghost may communicate with the PC in "ghostly whisper" or perhaps only through visions. It would argue with the PC if they happen to have opposite alignments, but in the end the decision would be up to the PC. True Sith would leave the PC no choice but to destroy them or be destroyed... and the ghost would know just _how_ to destroy them. In the end the ghost would either leave the PC (if we set Revan at LS) or try to take over completely and have to be evicted (Revan DS). In any case, the saga would have a satisfying conclusion which would also explain why the PC didn't make a try at founding a new Empire.

 

Oh, and if the PC starts in training, I really would like it to be a non-true Sith one . Some less illustrous Sith academy or something. It would make a nice change of pace IMHO.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Also, according to SWBF2 Stormtroopers are not all human. Some are other thingies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is a story in the SW:Battlefront hint book about the StormTroopers attack on Kyyshyyk from their perspective. At that point it's a mix of clones and recruits from conquered worlds. Similiar story for the Tie Fighter game.

 

The Emporer dosnt like aliens (which is why Thrawn is such an exception). although since I dont follow the EU stuff there may be some non human Storm Troopers knocking about.

[astr0creep]

I wonder what the salary is for a Stormtrooper. Any social benefits? A retirement plan? Medical? Dental?

Are any of them married with children?

What is their social status? Is Stormtrooper regarded as, say, a doctor or more like a... janitor?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I wonder what the salary is for a Stormtrooper. Any social benefits? A retirement plan? Medical? Dental?

Are any of them married with children?

What is their social status? Is Stormtrooper regarded as, say, a doctor or more like a... janitor? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think they pay out death benifits. Being a TIE fighter pilot sounds like a really cool job if you read the backstory.

 

Most of the people who work for the Empire are completely clueless.

 

TIE Fighter was really amazing. You get to fly with Darth and rescue the Emporer. Even though you know they are the bad guys. As a pilot you get treated really well and you progress in the emporers service with a big smile on your face.

Edited March 3, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[hawk]

Yeah, as a Stormtrooper in the empire you get paid for each kill:

 

Rebel soldier: 1000 credits

Rebel commander: 2500 credits

Rebel captain: 5000 credits

Rebel "VIP": 10000 credits

Civilian: 500 credits

 

Seriously though, I agree with Maia that the PC has to be a powerful jedi. Sure, there are a lot of people here who would like nothing better then to play an ordinary soldier and kill each and every (dark) Jedi they come across. Yeah, right, I am starting to think that the usual dark Jedi is just cannon fodder in Kotor. In Kotor II even more then in Kotor I.

The PC is the one who makes decisions so yes, he/she is the most powerful in the group. But on the other hand, I do see a way that your character wouldn't have to be more or equally powerful then Revan or the Exile.

You may know that I am currently working on a story which could set you as a normal but powerful Jedi (not associated with a character we know about) or as the son of Malak (It would only make an extra addition).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

One of the reasons that Dark Jedi are fodder is to do with the power level of the protagonist anyway.

 

If you played a regular "hero" then you wouldnt need such extreme foes in large quantities.

[Archmonarch]

I've been saying this for months, but personally the main problem I see with both KOTOR games (setting aside all technical or implementation problems) is that both MC's start out as Jedi. Yes Revan lost his memory but that doesnt really count.

 

In the Star Wars universe, Jedi are the ultimate power, far above and beyond anyone else ultimately. Therefore, since the MC is already a Jedi, the only path for character improvement is Ultra, Super God-Jedi (!!!), leading to the power problems noted by many on these fora.

 

Alternatively, I suggest one of two directions.

 

I. The character is a latent force sensitive who as a child has to compete in some sort of task to be accepted as a Jedi Padawan. Could also serve as a tutorial. Following this, the game diverges into two paths: you either pass or fail.

 

In the first, you play a series of small vignettes of Jedi training, giving the impression of the passage of time and acquiring of knowledge through the aging etc of your character model. Also gives a more indepth understanding of force/light saber rules for game.

 

In the second, I see several possible models.

A. You join a different force tradition.

B. You are discovered by a Sith, attracted by your hate and anger towards the Jedi.

C. You somehow infiltrate the Jedi organization and pretend to be an apprentice

1. Eliminate one of successful Padawans and assume identity.

2. Have a parent bribe someone.

 

II. The character begins as a member of another force tradition, preferably one having some sort of philosophical disagreement with the Jedi teachings. Somehow, a Jedi enters the situation and you must decide between the different philosophies. The degree to which you do so (or dont) affects the future path. Also, in this instance, an organization rating would be added, which noted your standing within certain organizations based upon your actions for them or how closely their ideas resemble your own.

Edited March 3, 2006 by Archmonarch

[Jediphile]

Why do I need to play a powerful jedi? Why can't I just play a jedi that simply grows to some power from his experiences and the circumstances? Revan and Exile will be the great jedi. If there is a third great jedi, then it should be Bastila, not my main pc.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You don

[Jediphile]

Personally,  I'd just prefer to play Revan who is crippled after surviving some cinematic catastrophe by sheer Force Power. Regrettably, s/he is terribly weakened by it and needs to regain strength and recruit new allies before tackling those pesky True Sith again . IMHO, this would make vastly more sense than a new protagonist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I really don't want to play yet another jedi (or even the same) who, yet again, lost his power and has to start over. Twice in two games is my limit. And I do think I'm not alone on that...

 

If it  absolutely _has_ to be a new PC, there needs to be an explanation why fate of the galaxy comes to reside in the hands of a weak newb. Say what you will, but conventions of RPGs require the PC to be the one doing stuff and making decisions. "Assisting" Revan and Exile just won't work IMHO.  Even when it looked like Bastila was in charge in  KOTOR, all the calls were being made by the PC - which felt somewhat clunky. And there is a nightmare with letting the player to define Revan's and Exile's  genders and alignments  and even so it would look dumb if they are both permanently masked and never speak, etc. It is just too complicated. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Why would that be a nightmare? People often say so, but I've never understood why. Seems to me it's a few conversations seeting Revan's and Exile's gender and alignment (four conversation paths there) and then one screen choosing Revan's face and one screen choosing Exile's. We could even add another two conversation paths and set Revan's and Exile's jedi classes. Sounds very quick to me. Was setting Revan's gender and alignment really such an annoying in K2?

 

So, being hit by a Force bundle, as Astrocreep  suggested is as good a reason for the PC to become a mover and shaker as any.

 

Or maybe have the PC posessed by a  Force Ghost,  perhaps even Revan's? Actually, it might be a good solution. Revan is killed by  the True Sith, but is too stubborn/desperate to die and concede defeat. The PC is a normal person (non-human races possible) with latent  Force abilities, or perhaps a Force Sensitive in training and is in a right place at a right time to get posessed by Revan's ghost.  Revan's  gender and alignment could  be established in 2 sentences in a conversation with first NPC of the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Killing Revan is anti-climactic, at least to me. He left to stop the true Sith, and then we find out he failed and just got himself killed? What a downer... Revan's fate needs closure, not being written out of the story during the opening credits like Hicks and Newt in Alien 3.

[maia]

One of the reasons that Dark Jedi are fodder is to do with the power level of the protagonist anyway.

 

If you played a regular "hero" then you wouldnt need such extreme foes in large quantities.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not in my opinion. A CRPG protagonist is supposed to kill hordes of enemies, so s/he might as well be a Jedi. Why else would a small team be sent into a frontal assault against an Evil Overlord and his hosts and be expected to succeed?

 

If those so-called Dark Jedi bothered to use their powers, they would have been far better opponents. Those very few Jedi who actually did, both in KOTOR1 and 2 were good enough. Why Bioware and Obsidian chose to go for lots of dull and unchallenging combat against weak enemies in the KOTORs, rather than for fewer but more interesting encounters like in BG2 is better known to themselves. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the class of protagonist.

 

Personally, I prefer the protagonist to be a Jedi from the start and for a very simple reason - because there are almost no tactical options available to normal classes. That's why people tend to go for all-Jedi teams in the KOTORs - to have something to do, however illusory. Well-developed and equipped non-Jedi NPCs in both games were often equally efficient killers, but spamming rapid shot or flurry gets old fast. At least with the Jedi you get to use cool-looking effects.

 

And yes, the protagonist has to be particulary powerful, because otherwise why expect them to win? It isn't like any clever approach is allowed, you have duke it out with the villain. But how many immensly powerful Force users can there be within such a short time period? They found a clever way out with the Exile (and an elegant explanation for why s/he remained in the bushes in part 1), but Exile was not a newb. In fact none of the movers and shakers in the previous 2 games were. And I don't see a compelling way to make one into a credible protagonist in part 3. "Hard work" doesn't cut it. Surely the True Sith and other Force users worked just as hard. Their lives depended on it, after all. No, something has to give a newb protagonist an extra edge - and the only non-repetitive way would be some "random" event like Astrocreep's ball of Force or my Revan posession. But personally, I really don't want a new protagonist...

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Not in my opinion. A CRPG protagonist is supposed to kill hordes of enemies, so s/he might as well be a Jedi. Why else would a small team be sent into a frontal assault against an Evil Overlord and his hosts and be expected to succeed? 

 

If those so-called Dark Jedi bothered to use their powers, they would have been far  better opponents. Those very few Jedi who actually did, both in KOTOR1 and 2 were good enough. Why  Bioware and Obsidian chose to go for lots of dull and unchallenging combat against weak enemies in the KOTORs, rather than for fewer but more interesting encounters like in BG2 is better known to themselves.  But it has absolutely nothing to do with the class of protagonist.

 

Personally, I prefer the protagonist to be a Jedi from the start and for a very simple reason - because there are almost no tactical options available to normal classes. That's why people tend to go for all-Jedi teams in the KOTORs - to have something to do, however illusory.  Well-developed and equipped non-Jedi NPCs in both games were often equally efficient killers, but spamming rapid shot or flurry gets old fast. At least with the Jedi you get to use cool-looking effects.

 

And yes, the protagonist has to be particulary powerful, because otherwise why expect them to win? It isn't like any clever approach is allowed, you have duke it out with the villain. But how many immensly powerful Force users can there be within such a short time period? They found a clever way out with the Exile (and an elegant explanation for why s/he remained in the bushes in part 1), but Exile was not a newb. In fact none of the movers and shakers in the previous 2 games were. And I don't see a compelling way to make one into a credible protagonist in part 3. "Hard work" doesn't cut it. Surely the True Sith and other Force users worked just as hard. Their lives depended on it, after all. No, something has to give a newb protagonist an extra edge - and the only non-repetitive way would be some "random" event like Astrocreep's ball of Force or my Revan posession. But personally, I really don't want a new protagonist...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But what can challenge a Jedi is far more limited than what can challenge a regular hero. It's boring when you hack through hordes of the same thing, or the same thing with a few added powers.

 

BG isnt a very good comparison since D&D has a plethora of creatures you can draw on from a number of different power levels. It's that variety and having to cope with creatures of very different abilities that makes D&D interesting when it comes to combat.

 

Don't think credibility is a big part of Star Wars.

Edited March 3, 2006 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Jediphile]

I wonder what the salary is for a Stormtrooper. Any social benefits? A retirement plan? Medical? Dental?

Are any of them married with children?

What is their social status? Is Stormtrooper regarded as, say, a doctor or more like a... janitor? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think they pay out death benifits. Being a TIE fighter pilot sounds like a really cool job if you read the backstory.

 

Most of the people who work for the Empire are completely clueless.

 

TIE Fighter was really amazing. You get to fly with Darth and rescue the Emporer. Even though you know they are the bad guys. As a pilot you get treated really well and you progress in the emporers service with a big smile on your face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The cool thing about TIE Fighter was that they got the background right. You might have known you fought for the bad guys as a player, but the character didn't - he was just trying to preserve order, police the galaxy, and stop the rebel insurgents. I'm sure Palpatine called the rebels terrorists.

 

But I must disagree that being a TIE Fighter pilot was a cool job. One reason the Empire lost so many great pilots (apart from being an oppressing tyranny and racist against non-humans) was that they treated their pilots like dirt, including Han Solo, Biggs Darklighter, Tycho Celchu among others. "What? Shields on your fighters? No, no - that'll just make for bad pilots - they'll be more inspired to be great pilots if they have no shields... What's that, Lord Vader? Yes, of course your new prototype TIE Fighter will have state-of-the-art shields, mylord!"

[Jediphile]

Yeah, as a Stormtrooper in the empire you get paid for each kill:

 

Rebel soldier: 1000 credits

Rebel commander: 2500 credits

Rebel captain: 5000 credits

Rebel "VIP": 10000 credits

Civilian: 500 credits

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That explains so much...

 

"What's you gonna do... What's you gonna do, when they come for you?"

 

:D

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

But I must disagree that being a TIE Fighter pilot was a cool job. One reason the Empire lost so many great pilots (apart from being an oppressing tyranny and racist against non-humans) was that they treated their pilots like dirt, including Han Solo, Biggs Darklighter, Tycho Celchu among others. "What? Shields on your fighters? No, no - that'll just make for bad pilots - they'll be more inspired to be great pilots if they have no shields... What's that, Lord Vader? Yes, of course your new prototype TIE Fighter will have state-of-the-art shields, mylord!" 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But you got to fly all the latest innovations. Which included shielded variants.

[Jediphile]

But you got to fly all the latest innovations. Which included shielded variants.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True enough. The TIE Defender ruled supremely. After that X-Wings and A-Wings are for wimps! :D

[maia]

But what can challenge a Jedi is far more limited than what can challenge a regular hero.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In theory. But in the praxis of KOTORs the power difference isn't noticeable, much. A soldier built and equipped for melee is as powerful as a Jedi of the equal level, only much more boring to use. A scout or a scoundrel would be slightly harder... but only slightly. And equally uninteresting. There aren't enough different active feats for non-Jedi characters to vary the combat.

And soldiers, androids and various beasts could be made challenging, if they had and used a variety of special attacks, had resistances, used group tactics, healed, shielded and used stimulants on a regular basis, etc. They are only fodder because the Devs chose to make them so.

[hawk]

Let me chance the subject for a moment. I got some votes today:

 

Who would you want to be in Kotor III:

 

1) Revan

2) The Exile

3) Revan

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

In theory. But in the praxis of KOTORs  the power difference isn't  noticeable, much. A soldier built and equipped for melee is as powerful as a Jedi of the equal level, only much more boring to use. A scout or a scoundrel would be slightly harder...  but only slightly. And equally uninteresting.  There aren't enough different active feats for non-Jedi characters to vary the combat.

And soldiers, androids and various beasts could be made challenging, if they had and used a variety of special attacks, had resistances, used group tactics, healed, shielded and  used stimulants on a regular basis,  etc. They are only fodder because the Devs chose to make them so.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your kidding ?

 

A Jedi is way beyond any of those. You just have to observe the difference between pre and post Jedi KOTOR II companions to see that.

 

More active feats certainly wouldnt hurt.

 

They do those things. Just not on a regular basis. Most of the time because they are dead within a few seconds of "becoming aware" anyway.

[maia]

I really don't want to play yet another jedi (or even the same) who, yet again, lost his power and has to start over. Twice in two games is my limit.

 

Third time is a charm? But really, it explains both the quick power progression and the reason _why_ all those folks would follow the PC's lead far better than when a PC is a complete newb freshly from the turnip truck. To explain how such a character becomes "the last hope" you have to go into the "prophecized one" clich

Edited March 3, 2006 by maia

[Jediphile]

I really don't want to play yet another jedi (or even the same) who, yet again, lost his power and has to start over. Twice in two games is my limit.

 

Third time is a charm?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No. Once was annoying, but acceptable. Twice was a pain, but bearable. Thrice will be punishment...

 

But really, it  explains both the quick power progression and the reason _why_ all those folks would follow the PC's lead far better than when a PC is a complete newb freshly from the turnip truck.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But that just brings the question of the number of NPCs. There were far too many in the last few games, and I doubt anyone ever got to use them all. I never used T3 in K1. I never used GOTO in K2. If you can use only 2 companions next to the pc, then why bother having more than four or five altogether?

 

To explain  how  such a character  becomes  "the last hope" you have to go into the "prophecized one" clich

[maia]

Your kidding ?

 

A Jedi is way beyond any of those. You just have to observe the difference between pre and post Jedi KOTOR II companions to see that.

 

Nope. But then, I am weird. I like taking non-Jedi companions along in both KOTORs. And I build them up as melee fighters whenever feasible and optimize them as well as I can. In part one, melee Canderous, melee Carth and upgraded HK-47 were more efficient killers than Jolee and Juhani. In part 2, Visas and JediMira were weaker than pre-change melee Atton, Mandalore or Hanharr. Atton's and Disciple's power level changed only slightly when they changed, Mira became noticeably stronger (but not strong enough), I didn't try non-Jedi Handmaiden and didn't bother with turning the Iridonian (though I'd guess that he improves a lot, like Mira).

[hawk]

In my opinion, I deleted an earlier post of the beginning chapter of my story, Both Revan and Exile will take up a major role in my vision of Kotor III.

In this story it is possible to:

 

1) Set gender and alignment of both Revan and the Exile

2) Play as a Jedi not known in the Jedi order because of his/her planet, where he/she came from (The outer rim or Unknown Regions) maybe play as another species. Play as Malak's son / daughter is also an option (no other species)

3) Have a lightsaber from the start

 

Revan will, during the game be a LS character, even if you set him/her DS. Don't worry, you could turn him/her DS later which probably involves killing one or two known persons (I am not going to reveal who in this topic).

 

The Exile will fall to the DS but just like with Revan you could redeem him/her at the end to go LS again.

Anyone likes it. I can send you a PM with the start of the game and some background info.

[Dyan]

Who would you want to be in Kotor III:

 

1) Revan

2) The Exile

3) Revan

[Guest The Architect]

How about your new K3 main character is somebody who was 13 years old during the Jedi Civil War and failed their training (you can choose from a number of different species). Then your sent to Telos to do Labour Work for the Jedi Order as a non-Jedi and then leave to become a freelance mercenary for the Intergalactic Exchange just before the events of K2.

 

When you have enough credits, you leave the Exchange and go to live on the outer-rim/unknown regions world of Exocron and you study Galactic History because you want to become an historian. And during the beginning of the events of K3, you are studying Galactic History, and you have to write two autobiographies, one on Revan and one on the Exile which means that their genders, alignments, appearences, classes, lightsaber types and colours are set, anyone like my idea?

 

I'ts worked out that my K3 story takes place 7 and a half years after the Jedi Civil War which makes your character 20 and a half years old...

Edited March 4, 2006 by The Architect

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Different races would certainly help. KOTORs pretty stale since the recipe seems to call for a human Jedi every time.