Man, could I go for a Rose of the Prophet Muhammad

[Dark Moth]

They agreed? So there was a debate? Then proof was not infallable otherwise there would not have been any debate.

 

There is no "proof" of what I said earlier. I came to that conclusion from listening in church and in school, on teevee when those preachers are stealing and a lot of reading from official sources as well as from more "modern" texts.

It just makes so much more sense to me (and others, I am not unique in that way) that Jesus was a more educated man, helping his people in ways they had never seen before and concluded in miracles, than him being the son of a God performing miracles in a supernatural way.

 

I believe Jesus was a preacher, in the most modern of description, trying to gather a following in order to gain power. I do not believe in a God of any kind, I do not even believe in the Soul.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why not post your "evidence", then? At least you could then back it up. Or are you just basing this on your "gut feeling"?

 

I hope you realize also that it is rather unrealistic, except under the most "conveniant" circumstances, for a person born of a lowly carpenter to somehow be able to afford to travel the world and get an education.

 

Call me a heretic if you want. If you are willing to burn me at the stake I will call you a religious, retarded fanatic, no better than those people killing for a caricature in a newspaper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Edited February 17, 2006 by Mothman

[Karimi]

Im not saying Jesus did nothing , he inspired the Bible, layed down the rules and contributed largely. But he did none of the writing, unlike Mohammed (mohammed didn't write any of it , but was around when it came down from God. Mohammed recited it to the muslims)

 

EDIT : I mean the new testament.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Karimi

[Dark Moth]

Im not saying Jesus did nothing , he inspired the Bible, layed down the rules and contributed largely. But he did none of the writing, unlike Mohammed (mohammed didn't write any of it  , but was around when it came down from God. Mohammed recited it to the muslims)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just as a little note here, don't use the term "Bible" in this case. He only inspired the New Testament/Christianity. The Old Testament all existed prior to Jesus' time. I trust you did know that, right?

Edited February 18, 2006 by Mothman

[Judge Hades]

Old Testament is based of the Jewish Torah, with Christians taking bits and pieces they liked from it.

 

Do I think that Jesus is the Son of God or an aspect of God? No more than anyone of us. My view of Jesus is that he was just a man, a product of his time and upbringing, who got pissed at the establishment and tried to do some good. The rest is just bunch of Paul Bunyan tells that got grander and grander with each telling til it was written down on paper.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Judge Hades

[astr0creep]

They agreed? So there was a debate? Then proof was not infallable otherwise there would not have been any debate.

 

There is no "proof" of what I said earlier. I came to that conclusion from listening in church and in school, on teevee when those preachers are stealing and a lot of reading from official sources as well as from more "modern" texts.

It just makes so much more sense to me (and others, I am not unique in that way) that Jesus was a more educated man, helping his people in ways they had never seen before and concluded in miracles, than him being the son of a God performing miracles in a supernatural way.

 

I believe Jesus was a preacher, in the most modern of description, trying to gather a following in order to gain power. I do not believe in a God of any kind, I do not even believe in the Soul.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why not post your "evidence", then? At least you could then back it up. Or are you just basing this on your "gut feeling"?

 

I hope you realize also that it is rather unrealistic, except under the most "conveniant" circumstances, for a person born of a lowly carpenter to somehow be able to afford to travel the world and get an education.

 

Call me a heretic if you want. If you are willing to burn me at the stake I will call you a religious, retarded fanatic, no better than those people killing for a caricature in a newspaper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I told you, I don't have evidence. Do you have evidence of anything that is written in the Bible? Of course you don't. All you have are what people have written down on paper over centuries, people who had as much credibility as you or me at the time.

 

There is a difference between getting an education through schools and getting it the right way, by experiencing it. I don't know how old you are or maybe you did it already but if not, I suggest you find a way to go on a trip for a few months. Go somewhere far from your home, where you will be a complete stranger. You will see that in that short time, you will learn more about the world than you could've in ANY school.

 

About unrealism, it is much more realistic to assume that Jesus tried to educate an ignorant people than to believe he was the son of God.

[Dark Moth]

I told you, I don't have evidence. Do you have evidence of anything that is written in the Bible? Of course you don't. All you have are what people have written down on paper over centuries, people who had as much credibility as you or me at the time.

 

There is a difference between getting an education through schools and getting it the right way, by experiencing it. I don't know how old you are or maybe you did it already but if not, I suggest you find a way to go on a trip for a few months. Go somewhere far from your home, where you will be a complete stranger. You will see that  in that short time, you will learn more about the world than you could've in ANY school.

 

About unrealism, it is much more realistic to assume that Jesus tried to educate an ignorant people than to believe he was the son of God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the way a lot of history is preserved my friend, through writing. If that's your logic, you might as well say all of history can be a sham. And anyway, if you have no evidence, which you just admitted (one of the stupidest things to say), then you're just making things up and going with your gut feeling. Anyhoo, one does not learn about history by just "taking a trip" (not in the sense you're talking about). Culture, yes, not history. Our history is learned by what those in the past record.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Mothman

[Karimi]

Yes. I did mean the new testament. I've nothing to say about the old testament.

 

As for the proof of Jesus being God's son , its in the Bible. This is the thing about Jesus , its difficult to say whether he said he was the son of God because he didn't write the Bible. He may or may not have said it.

[Judge Hades]

Mothman, never trust in what you read. Only go by what you know and personally experience. The thing about reading scripture and history texts is that the writer wants you to believe what is written is true even when, consciously or not, they are putting their own spin on the events that happen.

 

Everyone has their own point of view and if you see a car accident and ask 20 people on what just happen you will get 20 different stories.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Dark Moth]

My personal take on something historical is that we can't just learn it from one source, but many. It must be studied and parsed. Only then can we learn what is "true" or not. But you see, having some evidence is better than having none. Otherwise, you might as well say it's pointless to learn history as all of it can be a lie. But that's not so.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Mothman

[Judge Hades]

Yet Christians pretty much follow one source for their religion and not take a broader look at the historical context and common sense. When I studied the the Torah and the New Testament I view it as a mythology. Certainly there might be a grain of truth but it has largely been distorted to create a more grander tale. The same can be said for almost any religion for in every religion that I have studied they make their central "characters" larger than life.

[Blank]

The same can be said for almost any religion for in every religion that I have studied they make their central "characters" larger than life.

Which "central characters" in the Bible do you think are portrayed as "larger than life"?

[Judge Hades]

Jesus, Moses, and Abraham to name a few.

[astr0creep]

I told you, I don't have evidence. Do you have evidence of anything that is written in the Bible? Of course you don't. All you have are what people have written down on paper over centuries, people who had as much credibility as you or me at the time.

 

There is a difference between getting an education through schools and getting it the right way, by experiencing it. I don't know how old you are or maybe you did it already but if not, I suggest you find a way to go on a trip for a few months. Go somewhere far from your home, where you will be a complete stranger. You will see that  in that short time, you will learn more about the world than you could've in ANY school.

 

About unrealism, it is much more realistic to assume that Jesus tried to educate an ignorant people than to believe he was the son of God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the way a lot of history is preserved my friend, through writing. If that's your logic, you might as well say all of history can be a sham. And anyway, if you have no evidence, which you just admitted (one of the stupidest things to say), then you're just making things up and going with your gut feeling. Anyhoo, one does not learn about history by just "taking a trip" (not in the sense you're talking about). Culture, yes, not history. Our history is learned by what those in the past record.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You don't go on trip like the one I mentioned to learn about history. You go on that trip to learn about life, to experience things that you will never be able to staying in your living room reading the Bible and believing everything in it 100%.

That is what Jesus did. He opened his mind to new things. He stopped waiting for the prophet and, unknowingly, became the Prophet.

 

History is written by humans, with all their imagination, speculation and interpretation. If you would see, today, a man making an apple levitate, you would think he is either a God, an alien, a magician or Satan. What if in a hundred years humans discover a way to flex the brain in ways that allow them to make an apple levitate? Will that advanced man still be considered a freak or a pioneer?

Imagine those people, 2000 years ago, who's knowledge barely extended beyond planting vegetables and religion, who knew nothing about physics, medical treatments, chemistry, hygiene, imagine them looking at a man cure blindness, walk on water and coming back from the dead. How could they know that eye crud will shut your eyes if you don't clean it, how could they know about shallow water in the middle of the ocean, how could they know about loss of consciousness and coma? They didn't because all their lives revolved around feeding and praying on some scriptures.

 

About evidence or lack of it, you don't need evidence to know things. You need evidence to prove what you know.

A few years ago here in Quebec, there was this big trial for the leader of a biker gang. He was being accused of organising the murders of two prison guards and a lot of other really bad things. That man was well known in Quebec, to a point of even being a hero to some sick people. Everyone KNEW he was guilty on all counts and others that were never brought up. Yet, through the trial that lasted over a year, he was always referred to as a presumed criminal. Although proof was needed to put him behind bars, the knowledge of his crimes was shared by everyone.

Do you need proof that you love someone or do you know it?

Do you need proof that God exists or not or do you know it?

 

If you need proof for everything then you have no faith.

 

This forum is not a court of law. We do not need to prove anything. I am telling you what I know from reading a lot of material from a lot of different sources, interpreting some from cross references and historic facts, just like any historian would do(I am not a historian, I am interested).

 

We do not need to agree with each other's beliefs but we do need to respect each other. Otherwise we might as well start killing everyone that doesn't agree with us in the name of our beliefs like some barbarian tribe 2000 years ago.

[astr0creep]

Old Testament is based of the Jewish Torah, with Christians taking bits and pieces they liked from it.

 

Do I think that Jesus is the Son of God or an aspect of God?  No more than anyone of us.  My view of Jesus is that he was just a man, a product of his time and upbringing, who got pissed at the establishment and tried to do some good.  The rest is just  bunch of Paul Bunyan tells that got grander and grander with each telling til it was written down on paper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is the nature of written history. It changes with every iteration, with every new conqueror.

[Judge Hades]

Otherwise we might as well start killing everyone that doesn't agree with us in the name of our beliefs like some barbarian tribe 2000 years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You don't need to be a barbarian from 2000 years ago to go kill people for not believing the way you do. Just take a good look at the extremists of today and they are still killing.

 

Man, I hate religious nutjobs.

[Walsingham]

Incidentally, I found this quote from the BBC rather apposite:

 

"The event was intended to highlight the opinions of moderate Muslims after demonstrators earlier this month carried placards threatening violence through the capital.

 

Among the images which have sparked outcry is one of Muhammad with a bomb-shaped turban on his head. "

[astr0creep]

Otherwise we might as well start killing everyone that doesn't agree with us in the name of our beliefs like some barbarian tribe 2000 years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You don't need to be a barbarian from 2000 years ago to go kill people for not believing the way you do. Just take a good look at the extremists of today and they are still killing.

 

Man, I hate religious nutjobs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is what I meant. It's nice to see someone pick up those subtleties

[Lucius]

Incidentally, I found this quote from the BBC rather apposite:

 

"The event was intended to highlight the opinions of moderate Muslims after demonstrators earlier this month carried placards threatening violence through the capital.

 

Among the images which have sparked outcry is one of Muhammad with a bomb-shaped turban on his head. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, ironic isn't it.

[Dark Moth]

You don't go on trip like the one I mentioned to learn about history. You go on that trip to learn about life, to experience things that you will never be able to staying in your living room reading the Bible and believing everything in it 100%.

That is what Jesus did. He opened his mind to new things. He stopped waiting for the prophet and, unknowingly, became the Prophet.

And I'm saying that you don't make statements like yours about any historical figure when you don't have anything to back it up, which you already admitted. You're making things up! You're opinion is already void!

 

History is written by humans, with all their imagination, speculation and interpretation. If you would see, today, a man making an apple levitate, you would think he is either a God, an alien, a magician or Satan. What if in a hundred years humans discover a way to flex the brain in ways that allow them to make an apple levitate? Will that advanced man still be considered a freak or a pioneer?

Imagine those people, 2000 years ago, who's knowledge barely extended beyond planting vegetables and religion, who knew nothing about physics, medical treatments, chemistry, hygiene, imagine them looking at a man cure blindness, walk on water and coming back from the dead. How could they know that eye crud will shut your eyes if you don't clean it, how could they know about shallow water in the middle of the ocean, how could they know about loss of consciousness and coma? They didn't because all their lives revolved around feeding and praying on some scriptures.

You don't seem to realize, unless you're referring to the common peasents, that many ancient civilizations did have knowledge of the topics you mentioned. Those such as ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, and China, for instance, all held knowledge in one or more of those areas. You assume they knew nothing about any of the topics you mentioned, also rather far-fetched, since for one thing as fishermen they would have to have a knowledge of the ocean, including shallow water, and knowledge of loss of conscoiusness was known as well. See, you assume that Jesus had to have had some vast knowledge that comes from being educated and traveling the world, and that's why you believe he did so, even you have nothing to base your opinion on except that gut feeling alone.

 

About evidence or lack of it, you don't need evidence to know things. You need evidence to prove what you know.

Of course you need evidence to know things, genius. Otherwise the things you think you know are really just what you think. If you admit you base your feelings on nothing, then you've already lost the argument. You're just basing things on, basically, faith for which you have no basis.

 

If you need proof for everything then you have no faith.

Wait, suddenly I need proof to have my faith but you don't? Are you a hypocrite now, or just contradicting yourself for the sake of being right? See, as I've told others on this forum, I don't base my faith on faith alone. I base it on faith, historical evidence/fact, and yes, science.

 

This forum is not a court of law. We do not need to prove anything. I am telling you what I know from reading a lot of material from a lot of different sources, interpreting some from cross references and historic facts, just like any historian would do(I am not a historian, I am interested).

I thought you said you didn't have any evidence? See, this is one reason why your argument is doomed to fail if you keep talking like this. No, this forum is not a court of law. But in any debate whatsoever, if you're going to state your opinion on anything, you'd better be prepared to back yourself up. It's considered courteous and appropriate. Otherwise, it's just your "gut feeling", which is meaningless. If you can't, nobody's going to listen to you or take you seriously. Mostly they'll just take you for a nutjob.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Mothman

[Judge Hades]

He didn't say he had no evidence. He said he didn't need to show you any evidence.

 

Major difference.

 

Besides, any knowledge he or I have can easily be gathered by yourself. If you want to see the evidence look for it your own damn self and stop being lazy. Now shoo!

Edited February 18, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Diamond]

A religion thread again. Oh Jesus!

[WITHTEETH]

Jeezey Chreezy

[Judge Hades]

Don't call me Jezeey Chreezey.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Judge Hades

[Lucius]

Mothie stop spamming my threadie with bible stuff. :angry:

[Nartwak]

Come on, this is a Koran thread.