Did Revan sucseed in preparing the galaxy?

[Darth Blivion]

He failed big time, maybe that's why Kreia calls the Exile her greatest student *shrugs*. He did save the galaxy from Malak, but it's his treachery that led to the Civil war in the first place. So it's hard to call him a hero in the conventional sense, because he only finished what he'd started.

 

He would have been a more powerful hero IMO if he died along with Malak, as Vader did, killing Sidious. He'd probably be as compelling a tragic hero as Vader (perhaps) if his battle with Malak had ended with his death. But alas he has yet to atone for his errors as the Exile did in kotor 2. Perhaps we'll see a battle between him and the Exile, for his atonement.

 

I predicitng Revan gets killed in Kotor 3 by the Sith, perhaps while trying to save the protagonist.

[Darth Blivion]

why can't the darkside be controlled? grey jedi do it all the time, and even if you're not jedi (i mean force-sensitive) you have to go through that as well, always. being good or evil isn't about the force, it's about who you are. the universe is so that things must have an opposite, there is no light without dark, as there'd be no sith without the jedi, walking the grey path is facing that truth, facing that hoping to forever be in the light is actually making room for the dark. the old jedi order standed in the way of growth for the Republic, in doing so they made it weak, no matter what the price this was a threat to be ended, so that the Republic may start taking its own challenges, solving its own problems, test its forces in battle. if there'd been a jedi to settle things on the planets destroyed by the sith, there wouldn't be the need for the Republic to get up and work on it using its own resources and stabilizing new trade routes. this need not sound like a pro-war way to think, but as a means to get self-sufficient and ready for self-defense. in any event i don't think we're gonna see the Exile, or Revan, for some time. the Republic and the mandalorians still need time to grow, and there may be other offsprings of the jcwar as Kavar suggested, also the new jedi order has still to be born.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with you about the stagnation of the Jedi, but that was only part of the problem. Unlike the Exile, Revan didn't walk away but instead decided to make the Jedi understand his way, using the most brutish (IMO) archetypically villainous method, physical force/war. There were other options open to him, but falling to the dark side blinded him.

 

It also served to make the Jedi cling more strongly to their flawed code and councils, the war made them more stubborn and less open to new suggestions. Both sides were at fault, but Revan was the most responsible for the Republic's weakened state in Kotor 2.

[Knights&Darths]

being one of the gray order means balance. not necesarily perfect balance but balence non-the-less. good deeds equal out the bad ones. and bad deeds have thier consequences. basically to be gray is to aknowledge both good and evil inside but to know when one is right and the other is wrong.

exactly, they realize that good and evil depend strongly on our point of view, and that both are necessary to gain wisdom and greater knowledge and understanding of the force as well as knowledge of the self, which is the major lack in those who fall when inevitably faced with a test. like Kreia would say - "Turning away from that which tempts you or causes you fear is not strength. Facing it is."

[Knights&Darths]

It's not really possible to be truly gray your entire life, unless you resort to apathy.  And as Kreia said, apathy is death.  You could say being gray just means doing whatever you want, which in essence is selfish gratification, which many consider evil

quite the contrary, being grey doesn't mean you can do whatever pleases you.

graysiders don't delve into the darkside nearly as much as dark Jedi/Sith do, hence they aren't as open to its corruption.

it doesn't take that, it needs not be a 270 degrees journey.

being strongly lightside does not make you more susceptible to being dark, rather, just the opposite, as it blocks out the darkside.

yes, we saw it in Vrook especially by cutting off from the force the only hope for the galaxy he would have been responsable for the death of all life. to tie yourself to one extreme in the force, light or dark, it is just a means of blinding you to everything else, and that is weakness.

Unlike the Exile, Revan didn't walk away but instead decided to make the Jedi understand his way

had he/she not, the galaxy would have fallen, there was no real choice, Revan just did what needed to be done to save it, or at least to hope.

Both sides were at fault, but Revan was the most responsible for the Republic's weakened state in Kotor 2.

war is war, Revan tried to leave the republic as intact as possible but then that jedi ambush gave Malak the chance to ruin everything - for a time. Edited February 16, 2006 by jinger

[Dark Moth]

It's not really possible to be truly gray your entire life, unless you resort to apathy.  And as Kreia said, apathy is death.  You could say being gray just means doing whatever you want, which in essence is selfish gratification, which many consider evil

quite the contrary, being grey doesn't mean you can do whatever pleases you.

It means doing whatever you want to do, not what is "right" (lightside) or what is "wrong" (darkside) There's no other way. If you're goal is to help and do what you think is right, then that is LS more than anything else. If you're DS, most likely you do whatever you want without regard to life.

 

it doesn't take that, it needs not be a 270 degrees journey.

What do you mean? Are you actually suggesting that a neutral Jedi would have just as great a control of the darkside as a Sith lord? That's not the way it works. The darkside is a one-way street. There are no "shortcuts" to the end. It's a reflection of who you are. Graysiders in turn have no "shortcuts" to the true power of the darkside, either.

 

yes, we saw it in Vrook especially by cutting off from the force the only hope for the galaxy he would have been responsable for the death of all life. to tie yourself to one extreme in the force, light or dark, it is just a means of blinding you to everything else, and that is weakness.

You honestly think Vrook was LS? But even still, the exile was a threat to the galaxy because he was a wound in the force. Something the Sith could easily exploit. And I would have to disagree with you there: to tie yourself to to an extreme would be weakness if you had no understanding of both sides of the spectrum. But if you did, then you would be able to know which side you belonged to more, and in turn would be able to master the extreme to its fullest extent. Just look at Yoda: one of the most powerful Jedi ever. He was not neutral. Emperor Palpatine: one of the greatest Sith Lords ever, nor was he neutral. Not so with gray Jedi, who just wallow in the middle. To be truly neutral, if you really think about it, is to be either apathetic, selfish, or just plain undecided.

[Jediphile]

being one of the gray order means balance. not necesarily perfect balance but balence non-the-less. good deeds equal out the bad ones. and bad deeds have thier consequences. basically to be gray is to aknowledge both good and evil inside but to know when one is right and the other is wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't see the gray jedi that way. And there is no "gray order", since gray jedi have no formalized order - they are simply jedi who don't submit to a life of struggling the dark side of the force and instead refuse to take a final and eternal stance in the continuing struggle between LS and DS.

[Dark Moth]

being one of the gray order means balance. not necesarily perfect balance but balence non-the-less. good deeds equal out the bad ones. and bad deeds have thier consequences. basically to be gray is to aknowledge both good and evil inside but to know when one is right and the other is wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Technically DS is usually the "wrong thing". Or are you suggesting that a gray jedi is obligated to balance out all his good works with bad ones? That say if he donated money to a homeless person in the morning he'd have to go and rob somebody in the evening to even things out?

[Jediphile]

why can't the darkside be controlled? grey jedi do it all the time, and even if you're not jedi (i mean force-sensitive) you have to go through that as well, always.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, gray jedi don't "control" the dark side. If they try, they are just as likely to fall to the dark side as anyone else. The non-jedi (I assume you mean force adepts) are not as likely to fall, because their connection to the force is not as strong as it is for jedi or sith. I don't recall ever hearing of a force adept that fell to the dark side in the manner that Ulic or Revan did. In fact, Mara Jade was a force adept serving as the "Emperor's Hand" for years, and yet she was never corrupted by the dark side.

 

being good or evil isn't about the force, it's about who you are. the universe is so that things must have an opposite, there is no light without dark, as there'd be no sith without the jedi, walking the grey path is facing that truth, facing that hoping to forever be in the light is actually making room for the dark. the old jedi order standed in the way of growth for the Republic, in doing so they made it weak, no matter what the price this was a threat to be ended, so that the Republic may start taking its own challenges, solving its own problems, test its forces in battle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You almost make it sound as if the old jedi order was corrupting and subverting the republic, but as Bastila points out, the order was aware of the greater danger and would have aided the republic in time. They didn't get involved with the Mandalorian Wars, because they thought the risk of jedi fighting early in that war would have far worse consequences. What Revan and Malak then did can be seen to support their fears more than anything, since Revan and Malak and their followers all became evil and turned into a threat to the republic that was even more dangerous to the republic. The jedi order was being cautious. They were still wrong and limited themselves out of concern, but you cannot question their intent. It's far more ethically questionable how they later used Revan as a tool to serve their own interests.

 

if there'd been a jedi to settle things on the planets destroyed by the sith, there wouldn't be the need for the Republic to get up and work on it using its own resources and stabilizing new trade routes. this need not sound like a pro-war way to think, but as a means to get self-sufficient and ready for self-defense. in any event i don't think we're gonna see the Exile, or Revan, for some time. the Republic and the mandalorians still need time to grow, and there may be other offsprings of the jcwar as Kavar suggested, also the new jedi order has still to be born.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You seem to forget that the republic remained unaware of the threat the true Sith poses. In fact, the republic is *still* blissfully unaware because Revan decided to leave without telling them, and the Exile never had the chance. And the masters were all killed, before they could reveal anything. So the republic 'preparing itself' for the war is a non-issue, because the republic still doesn't know that there is yet another threat waiting to be unleashed...

[Jediphile]

being one of the gray order means balance. not necesarily perfect balance but balence non-the-less. good deeds equal out the bad ones. and bad deeds have thier consequences. basically to be gray is to aknowledge both good and evil inside but to know when one is right and the other is wrong.

exactly, they realize that good and evil depend strongly on our point of view,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't agree with that, because that basically supports a relative view on morality. That would be the same as saying that whether murder or other violent crimes are good or bad depend on how the society they are committed in thinks of it.

 

and that both are necessary to gain wisdom and greater knowledge and understanding of the force as well as knowledge of the self, which is the major lack in those who fall when inevitably faced with a test. like Kreia would say - "Turning away from that which tempts you or causes you fear is not strength.  Facing it is."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In Kreia's case I would say you should consider the source... Really, as I've said before, Kreia is the sort of person, where I say that if she told me water was wet, I'd check to see for myself before I believed her...

 

Or to quote Faramir from Lord of the Rings, "I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee" (this is the *real* Faramir from the books, not the pale shadow of himself that they turned him into the movies). The arrogance of thinking that you can confront and overcome any temptation is precisely the fatal mistake that both Ulic and Revan made, and they paid a high price for their arrogance. It eventually cost Ulic everything, and Revan still has to atone for his sins, as Darth Blivion pointed out.

[Jediphile]

Unlike the Exile, Revan didn't walk away but instead decided to make the Jedi understand his way

had he/she not, the galaxy would have fallen, there was no real choice, Revan just did what needed to be done to save it, or at least to hope.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, Revan fell. Pure and simple. Even if we accept that he did what he did to prevent the greater evil that the true Sith presented (and that's a big if, since we still don't know how much he knew of them at the time), Revan still fell to the dark side, corrupted or killed the jedi under him, then forgot all about the true Sith and instead sought the StarForge so he could invade the republic. With saviors like that, who needs the true Sith, anyway? "

 

That his initial intentions were good does not excuse it - at best it is merely an extenuating circumstance.

[Dark Moth]

Just to top it off: to say Revan was LS at the time of his betrayal is just loony!

[Knights&Darths]

It means doing whatever you want to do, not what is "right" (lightside) or what is "wrong" (darkside)  There's no other way.

 

i disagree, a total lightsider would never do something really evil for a greater good (if they did, then that would just be a major example of jedi hypocrisy), a total darksider would be disgusted to indulge in goodhearted behaviour, even if it meant to unlock a source of greater strength, because all they'd see in such acts is weakness.

What do you mean?  Are you actually suggesting that a neutral Jedi would have just as great a control of the darkside as a Sith lord?

 

i'm saying that you don't have to be the dark lord of the sith or the most back-acking jedi master to be a greysider, the strength of the neutral path is having no limitations, which is source of greater wisdom and knowledge, of greater power (because knowing both ways also means to know the weaknesses and strengths of each).

 

the exile was a threat to the galaxy because he was a wound in the force.  Something the Sith could easily exploit.

something the greatest of the sith teaching could do nothing against

 

to tie yourself to to an extreme would be weakness if you had no understanding of both sides of the spectrum.  But if you did, then you would be able to know which side you belonged to more, and in turn would be able to master the extreme to its fullest extent

 

you talking about the new jedi order there, the teachings of the darkside (to understand them you have to know them) were something strongly forbidden and seen as source of corruption and doom to fall. also, Yoda failed with Palps as i recall, and Anakin destroyed him, and as you said there's no shortcuts, you can't just jump from total darksider (Vader) to super lightsider, like ds Revan after saying no to Bastila, he really was something in the middle. Revan and Kreia and of course the Exile and many others actually proved to overpower the extremes we're talking about.

 

Technically DS is usually the "wrong thing"

and who said that?

 

No, gray jedi don't "control" the dark side.

 

it was meant as controlling temptations and safely use power indicriminately, and wisely nontheless.

 

What Revan and Malak then did can be seen to support their fears more than anything

 

i don't think so, the republic will be stronger for it, and a new jedi order will rise, but the old one had to be wiped out, since it is well known that one jedi at the right place and moment can turn the tide of a confict, and in doing so, doom to failure all of Revan's efforts.

 

You seem to forget that the republic remained unaware of the threat the true Sith poses. In fact, the republic is *still* blissfully unaware

all things in time, as i said, it is my belief that this will take some time. still, Carth and Bastila were told to keep the republic strong, now that the echos of Malachor have been silenced they will have a chance. Candy also was left with a mission, so were the Exile's apprentices

Edited February 16, 2006 by jinger

[Knights&Darths]

In Kreia's case I would say you should consider the source... Really, as I've said before, Kreia is the sort of person, where I say that if she told me water was wet, I'd check to see for myself before I believed her...

good one. but you see, i've got a brain myself, and i agree with her.

 

The arrogance of thinking that you can confront and overcome any temptation is precisely the fatal mistake

you're talking about overconfidence, i really don't think that's the case, but we cannot all drown in stagnation and aphaty overthinking "what if i'm wrong".

No, Revan fell. Pure and simple. Even if we accept that he did what he did to prevent the greater evil that the true Sith presented (and that's a big if, since we still don't know how much he knew of them at the time), Revan still fell to the dark side, corrupted or killed the jedi under him, then forgot all about the true Sith and instead sought the StarForge so he could invade the republic.

not so fast, don't forget Revan is from the unknown regions (he may, just may because it is just rumors Kreia speaks of, know more that anyone the magnitude of the sith treath) and the Star Forge was the key of Revan's triumph, a quick utter and cautios victory (till Malak of course, then back again). many dialogs reveal that Revan never intended to use the SF for long, what made you think he fell all of a sudden?

[DeathScepter]

Star Forge is an evil weapon of destruction.......it has its uses but a long use of the Starforge is ulimately lead to doom.

 

 

Rataka Empire fall into civil war because the nature of the beast which is the Star Forge.

[Jediphile]

i disagree, a total lightsider would never do something really evil for a greater good (if they did, then that would just be a major example of jedi hypocrisy),

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You mean like taking an enemy prisoner, reprogramming his mind, and then using him against his own? "

 

a total darksider would be disgusted to indulge in goodhearted behaviour, even if it meant to unlock a source of greater strength, because all they'd see in such acts is weakness.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They wouldn't see as a weakness if it served their own purposes. Palpatine served as a loyal senator for years in order to slip into a position from which to manipulate events. Does that make him a weakling or a sly manipulator?

 

i'm saying that you don't have to be the dark lord of the sith or the most back-acking jedi master to be a greysider, the strength of the neutral path is having no limitations, which is source of greater wisdom and knowledge, of greater power (because knowing both ways also means to know the weaknesses and strengths of each).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On the contrary - the grey jedi have more limitations than both the regular jedi or the sith - that's the price they pay for not adhering to either philosophy. And I fail to see how they have greater knowledge than characters like Yoda or Palpatine just because they choose to stay fairly neutral on the jedi/sith conflict. Few characters indeed have more knowledge or wisdom than Yoda or a few select other jedi masters. Also there is no "grey side". There is the jedi side and the sith side - the grey are just somewhere on the jedi side close to the middle.

 

it was meant as controlling temptations and safely use power indicriminately, and wisely nontheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The grey are no better off there than the other jedi. In fact, they're probably worse off since they have abandoned the very code that should guide them to stay in the light. Therefore they are in even greater peril from the dark side.

 

and a new jedi order will rise, but the old one had to be wiped out, since it is well known that one jedi at the right place and moment can turn the tide of a confict, and in doing so, doom to failure all of Revan's efforts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That makes no sense at all. Some of the masters did refuse to acknowledge their failings, but most of them had died at that point, and some - like Zez-Kai Ell and Vash - were quite open toward accepting their failings. Also, pay attention to G0T0. I know we all hate him, but as he points out, the republic is doomed without the jedi. To wipe them out is there to destroy the republic.

 

all things in time, as i said, it is my belief that this will take some time. still, Carth and Bastila were told to keep the republic strong, now that the echos of Malachor have been silenced they will have a chance. Candy also was left with a mission, so were the Exile's apprentices

Edited February 17, 2006 by Jediphile

[Dark Moth]

i disagree, a total lightsider would never do something really evil for a greater good (if they did, then that would just be a major example of jedi hypocrisy), a total darksider would be disgusted to indulge in goodhearted behaviour, even if it meant to unlock a source of greater strength, because all they'd see in such acts is weakness.

Wrong. A true lightsider would weigh his options, considering the goal he meant to achieve, whether it was right, and whether or not his means are right. A true lighsider would always look for the morally better alternative for any action, and would only result to doing something "evil" when no other options are available and when it HAS to be done. And even assuming the LS person was forced into doing something evil, then he/she would still be doing something for the greater good, and would still be LS. That does NOT make him/her "neutral".

 

i'm saying that you don't have to be the dark lord of the sith or the most back-acking jedi master to be a greysider, the strength of the neutral path is having no limitations, which is source of greater wisdom and knowledge, of greater power (because knowing both ways also means to know the weaknesses and strengths of each).

Actually, no. Walking the gray side means being undecided, doing whatever you think best suits you. And in doing so you never truly excel in any path, just dabble in both. Wisdom and knowledge first comes from knowing yourself, where you think you belong, and then doing what you think is right or wrong. And even if walking the grayside was truly possible, you'd be inheriting the strengths AND weaknesses of both. You can't harness just the strengths of both sides. Honestly, you need to stop listening to Kreia.

 

something the greatest of the sith teaching could do nothing against

Once again, no. Nihilus himself was a wound in the force. The Sith were able to track the exile because of being a "wound in the force". Listen to the Jedi masters in the end of the game and you'll see why the exile was a threat. And of course, from the exile and nihilus, the Sith could learn the same technique, and then be able to turn it against the Jedi. The masters did not want that to happen.

 

you talking about the new jedi order there, the teachings of the darkside (to understand them you have to know them) were something strongly forbidden and seen as source of corruption and doom to fall. also, Yoda failed with Palps as i recall, and Anakin destroyed him, and as you said there's no shortcuts, you can't just jump from total darksider (Vader) to super lightsider, like ds Revan after saying no to Bastila, he really was something in the middle. Revan and Kreia and of course the Exile and many others actually proved to overpower the extremes we're talking about.

If Revan was truly DS, he would have said "yes" to Bastila, as can be done in the game. Part of being DS is doing whatever you want without regards to those around you (something Kreia was an advocate of). Being a gray Jedi would not make you somehow more powerful. For one thing, Revan and the exile were not neutral. They were who you chose them to be. Kreia wasn't neutral, she was evil. Revan and the exile succeeded because they knew what they wanted to do, how to it, and had the power to do it. It doesn't come from being "neutral", rather just being able to have good judgement.

 

Example: the exile unleashed the mass shadow generator. Sure it could be consdered wrong, but look at the situation: the Republic was desperate, neither side was winning, and people were dying. The shadow generator, though heinous, may have actually saved more lives, thus it was the right thing, not evil. As for the exile, if he did it proudly without caring for the lives lost and willing to do it over again for the hell of it, he's definitely evil. If the exile regrets having to do it, doesn't wish to do it again (but at the same time realizing it was necessary), then he's not evil, he's more LS.

 

Technically DS is usually the "wrong thing"

and who said that?

Pretty much all the creators of SW, as well as many fans in general. DS = evil. Unless you mean to suggest that being evil is ok. "

Edited February 17, 2006 by Mothman

[Jediphile]

No, Revan fell. Pure and simple. Even if we accept that he did what he did to prevent the greater evil that the true Sith presented (and that's a big if, since we still don't know how much he knew of them at the time), Revan still fell to the dark side, corrupted or killed the jedi under him, then forgot all about the true Sith and instead sought the StarForge so he could invade the republic.

not so fast, don't forget Revan is from the unknown regions (he may, just may because it is just rumors Kreia speaks of, know more that anyone the magnitude of the sith treath) and the Star Forge was the key of Revan's triumph, a quick utter and cautios victory (till Malak of course, then back again). many dialogs reveal that Revan never intended to use the SF for long, what made you think he fell all of a sudden?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No, Revan is from Deralia. It's a remote system, but the fact that he can mention it to Bastila in K1 without Bastila raising an eyebrow certainly suggests that it is not in the unknown regions. It is likely in the outer rim close to the unknown regions, though.

 

And if Revan's plan was to fight the true Sith, then why did he attack the republic? He started out to save the republic first against the Mandalorians and then against the true Sith, so in between he had to defeat the republic and bomb its worlds... Hold on, that doesn't add up!

 

I might think that Revan did start out with good intentions, but he thought he could wear the mask of the dark lord without losing sight of his eventual goal and his soul. He was bitterly mistaken on both points. Once he accepted the dark side in his heart, it corrupted him and he was filled with ambition to rule the galaxy for himself. He might have started out planning to use the StarForge as a weapon against the true Sith, but that's not what happened. Instead he thought he should rule everything, and with the republic weaker than the true Sith, he decided to attack the republic first, then conquer the true Sith and rule them as well once he had conquered the republic and taken control of its resources.

 

He may have started out wanting to save the republic, but we all know what the road to Hell is paved with... Or to make an analogy, he made the same mistake that Boromir did in "Lord of the Rings" - he thought he could use evil to defeat evil, and he couldn't, because evil twists you - instead of controlling the dark side, the dark side ended up controlling him.

[moreKOTORplz]

Revan's will allowed him to be above both orders :cool:

[Guest The Architect]

No, Revan is from Deralia. It's a remote system, but the fact that he can mention it to Bastila in K1 without Bastila raising an eyebrow certainly suggests that it is not in the unknown regions. It is likely in the outer rim close to the unknown regions, though.

 

And if Revan's plan was to fight the true Sith, then why did he attack the republic? He started out to save the republic first against the Mandalorians and then against the true Sith, so in between he had to defeat the republic and bomb its worlds... Hold on, that doesn't add up!

 

I might think that Revan did start out with good intentions, but he thought he could wear the mask of the dark lord without losing sight of his eventual goal and his soul. He was bitterly mistaken on both points. Once he accepted the dark side in his heart, it corrupted him and he was filled with ambition to rule the galaxy for himself. He might have started out planning to use the StarForge as a weapon against the true Sith, but that's not what happened. Instead he thought he should rule everything, and with the republic weaker than the true Sith, he decided to attack the republic first, then conquer the true Sith and rule them as well once he had conquered the republic and taken control of its resources.

 

He may have started out wanting to save the republic, but we all know what the road to Hell is paved with... Or to make an analogy, he made the same mistake that Boromir did in "Lord of the Rings" - he thought he could use evil to defeat evil, and he couldn't, because evil twists you - instead of controlling the dark side, the dark side ended up controlling him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Brilliant post Jediphile. I fully agree with everything you said. I'm glad someone shares the same views on Revan as I do.

Edited February 17, 2006 by The Architect

[Blaise Russel]

See, I don't think Revan started out thinking "I'm gonna be evil for a little while, I can stop at any time" and just succumbed to the temptation of the Dark Side. I think he fully, willingly submerged himself in evil, because it'd be better for the galaxy to fall under his thumb than for it to be conquered by the inhuman True Sith. As Emperor of the galaxy, he has a motivation to protect his investment/possession and keep it relatively intact; the True Sith have no such obligation.

 

As he saw it, there were two options - seize power, take control of the Republic and make it his bauble, keeping it safe under his awesome and uncontested might, or leave it as it was and allow the True Sith to overrun its ineffective defences and destroy it. He chose option one, because true loyalty to a people or an ideal requires that you are willing to betray it, sacrifice yourself and your faith in it if it will ultimately make things better for it.

[DGwar]

my sating of the gray jedi is saying that they don't follow anthing. they don't puposefully balence out, the do it because that is how they are. the don't subject themselves to the teaching of others but learn thier own ways basically to be grey is to be human.

[DeathScepter]

Grey Jedi's philosophy is very human. One of the Ideal "grey" Jedi is Qui Gon Jinn.

 

 

Qui Gon Jinn is both wise yet rebellious. Both strong yet gentle. Both Smart and brave.

[Jediphile]

Grey Jedi's philosophy is very human. One of the Ideal "grey" Jedi is Qui Gon Jinn.

 

 

Qui Gon Jinn is both wise yet rebellious. Both strong yet gentle. Both Smart and brave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I wouldn't call Qui Gon quite grey. He may not follow the code strictly (which, as Obi-Wan said, is why he is not on the council), but he still remains a member of the order.

 

Jolee is a grey jedi. He follows neither the code, nor is he a member of the order itself. Instead he adopted a "think for yourself"-philosophy, though that didn't mean he discarded the code entirely - he just denied the parts he found to be too strict. And yet, if Revan decides to follow Bastila to the dark side, Jolee will stand firmly with Juhani to prevent it, even fighting to the death.

Edited February 18, 2006 by Jediphile