Who Kriea actually could be?

[Jediphile]

But it is also possible that Kae was Revan's last master (besides one)...

 

Nothing there that can prove that wrong. Kae left to join the War, but so did Revan. Maybe he did so right after Kae's training and only had one other just before he went?

 

Edit = Revan ain't the Exile

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Except the people who say that Kreia is not Kae maintain that Kae died in the Mandalorian Wars. How can she teach Revan again after she died (unless we consider her a LS force ghost on Malachor V... highly unlikely IMO) ?

 

If Kae did survive the war, then that's another factor that speaks in favor of Kae=Kreia.

 

Besides, the only way Kae can be Revan's first and last master (without being Kreia) is if Kreia is lying about Revan coming to her after he learned he was more than he had been told.

 

That doesn't seem to be the case, since the masters tells also tell us that having Kreia as a new master is following Revan's path.

[BattleCookiee]

Well, you just mentioned a number #1 reason why Kae cannot be Kreia.

 

Kae is presumed dead so how can he return to her for her final lessons then. Answer: He cannot, as the last lessons are from Kreia

[Jediphile]

Well, you just mentioned a number #1 reason why Kae cannot be Kreia.

 

Kae is presumed dead so how can he return to her for her final lessons then. Answer: He cannot, as the last lessons are from Kreia

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Which is precisely why I think Kae is indeed Kreia. Kae "died" on Malachor V only in the sense Anakin did according to what Obi-Wan tells Luke - she turned to the dark side and became Darth Traya instead of Arren Kae (like Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader). "Kreia" is just a "constructed" name after the fact - Kae+Traya=Kreia.

 

This also fits well with Kavar's outburst that, "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars...", doesn't it?

[BattleCookiee]

But how can ordinary padawan, like Disciple, know then that Revan went to the "last master" who was the first master... if the first master was pretty dead (even if not, for them she was)

 

It wouldn't make sense to say; "Revan teached from Kae first and ended his lessons from Kae, while she was dead" "

[Jediphile]

But how can ordinary padawan, like Disciple, know then that Revan went to the "last master" who was the first master... if the first master was pretty dead (even if not, for them she was)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Disciple is no mere padawan - he was at the jedi academy at the time and likely knew all the involved people, including Revan, Malak and Kreia. The fact that Kreia continues to manipulate his mind throughout the game suggests a lot. By the time we meet him K2, he is a spy/soldier for the republic with a speciality in jedi matters exploring the jedi secrets of Dantooine. Likely he has been studying jedi lore and history for years at this point. Note how he also speaks a lot about what the masters thought of Exar and Ulic and lots of other stuff... Not many lowly padawans or republic soldiers are likely to have such knowledge.

 

It wouldn't make sense to say; "Revan teached from Kae first and ended his lessons from Kae, while she was dead"  "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

[BattleCookiee]

He was padawan during his time at the Academy (under lead of the Exile or atleast close). After the Exile left for the Mandalorian Wars he left the Academy. It is likely that (being the spy/researcher and all) that he gained all the knowledge about the Jedi and such from sniffing in their archives and files etc.

 

And even with this knowledge he cannot know "that a dead person is alive"... especially if even the masters do not even know (nor did they know about Atris, and guess what Ex-Padawan also doesn't know about Atris?)...

Edited February 27, 2006 by BattleCookiee

[Revan1127]

I personally feel that kreia is kae( idk if this has been said or I have missed something important) But why dose kreia not want the exile to know she is kae

[SSgtSniper]

Then why does Disciple remember Kae but not "that other master" (Kreia)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

He does remember Kriea. There is a specific dialogue where he recognizes her, and she makes him forget who she is and what he has discovered.

 

Also, Revan left the Order for the Mandalorian wars, so Kae would not have been dead by then. One thing every mster in both games trips over is that Revan and Malak "Left to go fight the Mandalorians" when they had been ordered not to. Thus, they left the order at that time, when it is known Kae was alive and well. (And quite pregnant most likely, although the order wouldn't have known it yet.)

Revan only returned to the Jedi Council in a coma after all.

 

To me, it goes back to Master Kavar, Battlewookie. He's what I would call the centerpiece of the pro-Kae argument. One thing that everyone knows is that after the Mandalorian War, Kae was presumed dead, although her body was never found. Flash to the council chamber on Dantoinee-

 

Kavar- "I thought you had died in the Mandalorian Wars."

 

Kreia- "Die? No-became stronger, yes."

 

 

Also, the argument that Kae was exiled simply because of Brianna's birth is simply ludicrous. Nomi Sunrider, Jolee Bindo, even (I think) Arca Jeth were all married at one point or another. None of them, not one, was exiled for their relationships outiside the order. (Now do understand, in Nomi's case, I'm referring to her husband not being exiled for having a wife, since she only became a jedi after her Jedi husband's death.) Kae may well have been exiled for teaching things to Revan that "led" to his fall, and those around him, since (if she is Kriea) she would have been held reponsible for the second largest split ever in the history of the Jedi Order.

Edited February 27, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[DeathScepter]

Remember all of those Jedi you said were before and during the time of Exar Kun.

 

This is a good time after Exar Kun.

 

So they would have modified the rule since then.

[SSgtSniper]

Remember all of those Jedi you said were before and during the time of Exar Kun.

 

This is a good time after Exar Kun.

 

So they would have modified the rule since then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Okay, one more: the Canonical Male LS Revan and Bastila of KOTOR one. They weren't exiled, they followed Jolee's path of Self-exile, more or less. My point is, Jedi were never formally exiled for relationships, the only Jedi that left because of relationships did so as a self-induced exile. So if Kae was formally exiled, you can bet your sweet bippy it was for more than being preggers.

 

 

Related plot hole that I think could also tie in, in a backwards kind of way, Kavar fought in at least a part of the Mandalorian Wars, (The liberation of Onderon and Dxun) and yet was not exiled. Why? I have my own theory, I want to hear some of the others out there.

Edited February 27, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[DeathScepter]

I do believe that Vodo is to blame for the Antiattachment rule.

 

well when he is making the Jedi Code(very buddist eccentric one), he made the No Attachment rule.

 

 

The Jedi Order is Similar to a Buddist Monastic Order in their philosophy and lifestyle.

 

 

To A Buddhist, Any and all attachments are considered desires and to rearch Nivana(msp), Leave all desire and attachment to this world.

 

No girlfriends, no boyfriends, No Family, No Friends, No Money, No Earthly passions, No Earthly possesion.

 

Those are some of the Buddhists strive for in the NO earthly desire and attachment.

 

 

 

Master Vodo is a Jedi Buddhist.

 

Also his word(because he is a high ranking Master of the Jedi order so he has high influence) quickly becomes law.

 

 

Right or wrong, his impact has profound effect.

 

 

Because he is a high ranking Jedi Master of the Jedi Order, Many of the Jedi order took his word as law.

 

For they didn't know any better.

 

 

When he made the Jedi Code, He made it for the better ment of the Jedi order. It was more of a Stupid preventing Code comes to Emotions than a Resricting Code.

 

 

Thru attachments, comes emotions.

 

The First line of the Jedi Order is There is NO emotion; Thre is peace

 

So doing, the Jedi set themselves up for failure because they believe in the very highest standard of themselves and the rest of the Jedi order.

 

That is why there are failures within the Jedi Order.

 

The Force is a diffcult thing to master; it is not out of the thought process of that time to start training childern at the very young age.

 

The main reason is that they didn't want another Exar Kun. But it is not impossible for an adult to master the force.

 

A willing mind and a dedicated spirit is all that is need for true mastery of the Force. So age is ulimately meaningless.

 

A normal Adult is much harder to train than a normal child due to the among of the Bull**** that a normal Adult has in his mind.

 

That is why Yoda(in ESB) said that Luke is too old to time.

Edited February 27, 2006 by DeathScepter

[SSgtSniper]

No, he was using it as an excuse. Yoda's real fear comes a moment or two latr, when he asks "Will he finish what he begins?"

 

 

Back to this subject, thoughts on Kavar? Or further thoughts on the main discussion?

Edited February 27, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[LunarG]

I do believe that Vodo is to blame for the Antiattachment rule.

 

well when he is making the Jedi Code(very buddist eccentric one), he made the No Attachment rule.

 

 

The Jedi Order is Similar to a Buddist Monastic Order in their philosophy and lifestyle.

 

 

To A Buddhist, Any and all attachments are considered desires and to rearch Nivana(msp), Leave all desire and attachment to this world.

 

No girlfriends, no boyfriends, No Family, No Friends, No Money, No Earthly passions, No Earthly possesion.

 

Those are some of the Buddhists strive for in the NO earthly desire and attachment.

 

 

 

Master Vodo is a Jedi Buddhist.

 

Also his word(because he is a high ranking Master of the Jedi order so he has high influence) quickly becomes law.

 

 

Right or wrong, his impact has profound effect.

 

 

Because he is a high ranking Jedi Master of the Jedi Order, Many of the Jedi order took his word as law.

 

For they didn't know any better.

 

 

When he made the Jedi Code, He made it for the better ment of the Jedi order. It was more of a Stupid preventing Code comes to Emotions than a Resricting Code.

 

 

Thru attachments, comes emotions.

 

The First line of the Jedi Order is  There is NO emotion; Thre is peace

 

So doing, the Jedi set themselves up for failure because they believe in the very highest standard of themselves and the rest of the Jedi order.

 

That is why there are failures within the Jedi Order.

 

The Force is a diffcult thing to master; it is not out of the thought process of that time to start training childern at the very young age.

 

The main reason is that they didn't want another  Exar Kun.  But it is not impossible for an adult to master the force.

 

A willing mind and a dedicated spirit is all that is need for true mastery of the Force. So age is ulimately meaningless.

 

A normal Adult is much harder to train than a normal child due to the among of the Bull**** that a normal Adult has in his mind.

 

That is why Yoda(in ESB) said that Luke is too old to time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yoda was afraid Luke would be like his father, and eventually fall to the dark side. Saying that he was too old was the kind of "last stubborn attempt" to reject Obi-Wan's and Luke's request that he teach Luke the force. Not wanting to reveal to Luke that he is related to Vader obvisouly, he couldn't have said it straight out.

[The Great Phantom]

Could Kae be one of Kreia's apprentices? She's always complaining about how all of her students were seen as 'failures', and...

 

Ah, well.

[BattleCookiee]

1. Yoda saying Luke is too old too train is no excuse. After all Jedi only trained Padawan from very young. Even Skywalker in Episode I (9?) was too old... and Luke was certainly older than 9

 

2. Jolee did kept his marriage hidden from the Jedi Council and he could be exiled if discovered. Before that could happen she turned on him though, and he exiled himself to Kashyyyk

 

3. Did Kavar fought then (where did you get that)? Did he also came back engaged and pregnant? :D

 

4. And when/how could they HAVE exiled Kae if she joined the Wars and never came back? (because: Dead?)

 

5. Dying in the Mandalorian Wars not quite that good of a proof now is it. I mean, it isn't like there died hundreds of Jedi and thousands of Repulblic Soldiers... Nah...

[Jediphile]

1. Yoda saying Luke is too old too train is no excuse. After all Jedi only trained Padawan from very young. Even Skywalker in Episode I (9?) was too old... and Luke was certainly older than 9

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the script says Anakin was about 10 in Ep I. Still, close enough...

 

But I don't think the reason for Yoda's questions to Luke is what anyone here has said. Of course, they're going to train - they hid for all these years to turn him - or his sister - into a weapon against Vader and the emperor, and now they're just going to let the matter go? Doubtful. They likely waited this long for a purpose. Nothing would have prevented Obi-Wan from taking Luke to Yoda at an earlier age or even training Luke himself. That's not the reason, I think.

 

But Yoda needs to knowt that Luke is ready for what will be taught. Last hope or not, Luke must be ready for what is taught before they can entrust him with knowledge of the force. Otherwise he could become a greater threat than Vader.

 

2. Jolee did kept his marriage hidden from the Jedi Council and he could be exiled if discovered. Before that could happen she turned on him though, and he exiled himself to Kashyyyk

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Your memory of Jolee's experiences is somewhat flawed. From K1's dialog.tlk

 

Jolee: "I loved her too much to see fault in her.And she loved me, too. I know she did. At the time, our love was a shared bliss... better than anything I had known before or since.Exar Kun is what happened. Nayama was inspired by Exar's promises of a new Golden Age. She wanted to join him.She came to me, pleading with me to throw aside what she called the decrepit trappings of the Jedi... to join her in Exar's war.I pleaded with her to reconsider, to think about all that she was throwing away... to think about what she would become.She would have none of it. Finally, in frustration, she attacked me. She drew her lightsaber and attempted to strike me down.It was a scene being repeated everywhere throughout the galaxy. Pupil against master. In my case... it was a long and terrible battle, but I defeated her.No... no. I had her at my mercy, disarmed and defenseless. She looked up at me and she knew... she knew I couldn't do it.Was I? Sometimes I convince myself that I couldn't have done otherwise... that I couldn't have seen that she had truly fallen to the dark side. But, yes, I was a fool.And I let her go. To my shame, she went on to kill many Jedi during the war until she, herself, was slain in the final battle.I grieved for her death, inevitable as it was, even as the Jedi Council put me on trial for my actions once the war was over.I had trained Nayama against their wishes. I had failed to kill her when I had the chance, and she went on to kill others.It was a travesty, of course. I told you that even the Jedi were capable of great injustices, didn't I?But I deserved to be tried. They found me innocent.Even though I... deserved every punishment and more... they let me go. Mitigating circumstances, they said. I deserved compassion, they said.That... that was when the Jedi left me. That was when they failed me.They may have been able to forgive me. I... could never forgive myself."

 

4. And when/how could they HAVE exiled Kae if she joined the Wars and never came back? (because: Dead?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They exiled her before she went to war. Most likely she went to war because it was simply opportune for her to do so, since she had already been cast out of the order and so was no longer tied to their rulings.

 

Also, she had given birth to Brianna long before that time. K2 takes place about 15 years after the Mandalorian Wars began, and that is still several years before Revan and the others decided to fight. Brianna is older than 15 in K2.

 

5. Dying in the Mandalorian Wars not quite that good of a proof now is it. I mean, it isn't like there died hundreds of Jedi and thousands of Repulblic Soldiers... Nah...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's excellent proof, since Kreia never tells us that she too fought in the wars, at least not until Kavar mentions it and she clearly confirms it.

[Canaan Aphettu]

they hid for all these years to turn him - or his sister - into a weapon against Vader and the emperor

 

No. They hid them from Vader and the Emporer to protect them. Neither Yoda nor Obi Wan mention using them to destroy the Sith - they just want them to be safe. So when Obi Wan directs Luke to Yoda, Yoda is against the idea of training him, in case he becomes another Vader, and - as Luke doesn't know the truth about his father - gives the excuse that he's too old - the same reason he didn't want to train Anakin.

[Jediphile]

they hid for all these years to turn him - or his sister - into a weapon against Vader and the emperor

 

No. They hid them from Vader and the Emporer to protect them. Neither Yoda nor Obi Wan mention using them to destroy the Sith - they just want them to be safe. So when Obi Wan directs Luke to Yoda, Yoda is against the idea of training him, in case he becomes another Vader, and - as Luke doesn't know the truth about his father - gives the excuse that he's too old - the same reason he didn't want to train Anakin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So they're just going to pass on the only hope they have of overthrowing the Sith...

 

Sorry, but I'll have to respectfully disagree.

[Canaan Aphettu]

they hid for all these years to turn him - or his sister - into a weapon against Vader and the emperor

 

No. They hid them from Vader and the Emporer to protect them. Neither Yoda nor Obi Wan mention using them to destroy the Sith - they just want them to be safe. So when Obi Wan directs Luke to Yoda, Yoda is against the idea of training him, in case he becomes another Vader, and - as Luke doesn't know the truth about his father - gives the excuse that he's too old - the same reason he didn't want to train Anakin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So they're just going to pass on the only hope they have of overthrowing the Sith...

 

Sorry, but I'll have to respectfully disagree.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well it was Obi Wan's hope to train Luke, and have him destroy the Sith - after all, he'd trained with the boy and felt his raw, untrained abilities. But Yoda's plan was a rather more traditional view - many Jedi masters believed that these events may be the will of the Force, and the balance of power would eventually shift in their favour. Either that or he was just plain depressed and didn't think they'd stand a chance.

 

One thing's for sure - unless he was acting again, Yoda did not want to train Luke.

[Ash]

Either that or he was just plain depressed and didn't think they'd stand a chance.

Yoda was pretty depressed throughout EP V. He didn't want to train Luke, for reasons probably like mentioned: Yoda was afraid for another Vader.

When Luke left to confront Vader, Yoda lost all hope.

Fortunately Yoda was convinced by Obi-Wan to train Luke.

 

Obi-Wan however I'm not so sure about. I think Obi-Wan saw an opportunity when he met Luke. He sacrificed himself against Vader for a reason - so he could guide Luke towards the way of the Jedi.

[SSgtSniper]

3. Did Kavar fought then (where did you get that)?

 

Kavar- "You cut yourself off, because you had to, in order to survive. You had hints of it in the Campaign on Dxun, (implies he was there, as no other Jedi returned to have told them that, so how else would he know) Malachor was simply the final blow."

 

From the funny named Master- "It' was Kavar's plan- he was the best tactician, and he had seen more war than the rest of us." (Paraphrased, I cannot remember the exact wording of the first part.)

 

I have this sneaking suspicion that Kavar is in fact Onderonian. In fact, as the Royal line is from Force Sensitive stock, I have a suspicion that he's also from the Royal Family. There's not much supporting it, it's just this gut feeling I had. One thing's for sure: He definitely is interested in what happens in that system.

 

4. And when/how could they HAVE exiled Kae if she joined the Wars and never came back?

 

From the Disciple- "After you left I was told you were no longer a Jedi. And I decided that if you were no longer to be a Jedi, then you had a reason. So I left the order." (Paraphrased, I cannot remember the exact wording)

 

The point is everyone that left to fight in the Mandalorian War was summarily exiled. Your trial was not actually such, it was simply the official informing of your (already decided) exile. Now with Kae, it's different. I think she was formally tried and exiled after Revan and Malak left and took half the order with them, and then she left and joined him.

 

5. Dying in the Mandalorian Wars not quite that good of a proof now is it. I mean, it isn't like there died hundreds of Jedi and thousands of Repulblic Soldiers... Nah...

 

Up until then, she had never claimed to have even fought in them. Also, following up Kavar's little line is Vrook.

 

Vrook- "Is this your new Master exile? If so, you follow Revan's path. Her teachings will cause you to fall as surely as he did."

 

 

1. Yoda saying Luke is too old too train is no excuse. After all Jedi only trained Padawan from very young. Even Skywalker in Episode I (9?) was too old... and Luke was certainly older than 9

 

I don't deny that, I am merely saying that wasn't his real fear, his age. His real feal is that Luke will do exactly what he did, run off and not finish his training, and then fall to the darkside. That was his real fear. Why else would he ask, "Will he finish what he begins?"

 

 

--Side note: can someone mail me a keyboard with a better working 'A' key? Because I'm getting tired of all the edits. No? *Grumbles* Off to Wal-Mart then, I suppose.

 

 

Eidt-- AGAIN. To add, on the Number two argument, Battlewookie, he asked the Order to train her, and they refused. They were well aware of his marraige, and even after the war, had no intentions of Exiling him for it, although he thought they should have, like Jediphile said.

Edited February 27, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

Kreia is Kreia. Why does it matter? I think you guys are obsessing on trivial matters.

Edited February 27, 2006 by 6 Foot Invisible Rabbit

[BattleCookiee]

@ Jediphile

 

So Jolee didn't kept his marriage hidden. But it does prove that an further attachement, like training Jedi techniques is forbidden. Why would the getting of a child not include? As you also see in Episode III; Anakin says he has to leave the Academy if Padme gets het child...

 

And how could she have had the child before the war if all looks point toward the fact that she met him in combat. And why would she be happy with Revan if he/she has killed her husband?

[Jediphile]

@ Jediphile

 

So Jolee didn't kept his marriage hidden. But it does prove that an further attachement, like training Jedi techniques is forbidden. Why would the getting of a child not include?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It might, but then isn't Jolee's transgression far worse? They still let him stay. It was his choice to leave, not the order's.

 

As you also see in Episode III; Anakin says he has to leave the Academy if Padme gets het child...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, that's 4000 years later - of course the rules couldn't have changed by then...

 

And how could she have had the child before the war if all looks point toward the fact that she met him in combat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, the Mandalorian Wars began 15 years before K2, which is still about three years before Revan got involved. Do you think the Handmaiden is 15 years old or younger?

 

And why would she be happy with Revan if he/she has killed her husband?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Who says she's happy with it? I actually think that is precisely the "betrayal of the heart" that she talks about as a condition for becoming Darth Traya. Either that or the "betrayal of the heart" lies with Yusanis leaving her, when she turned to the dark side with their child.

[SSgtSniper]

Or for Yusanis taking her child away and sending her to his home? Maybe? Also, Yusanis was prominent even before the Mandalorian Wars, and Would have made more than one trip to Corusant over the years.... Who says they didn't meet then?