Who Kriea actually could be?

[SSgtSniper]

Well, if I ever had any amount of time to finish a point in one sitting, then I would try to make my point, but I don't so I won't...

 

Quick question:

Was it his marriage that Jolee was trying to keep hidden, or was it him training his wife? He never said anything (in my memory) of wanting exiled for being married, but for training somebody in secret, who later killed many Jedi...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you sidestep the point. His training of his wife was hidden, but his marriage was well known. He was not exiled for having a relationship. That's the on point precedent.

 

The aside is he didn't even get exiled for training her behind the Order's collective back after they refused to.

Edited March 1, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[Jediphile]

Well, if I ever had any amount of time to finish a point in one sitting, then I would try to make my point, but I don't so I won't...

 

Quick question:

Was it his marriage that Jolee was trying to keep hidden, or was it him training his wife? He never said anything (in my memory) of wanting exiled for being married, but for training somebody in secret, who later killed many Jedi...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, you sidestep the point. His training of his wife was hidden, but his marriage was well known. He was not exiled for having a relationship. That's the on point precedent.

 

The aside is he didn't even get exiled for training her behind the Order's collective back after they refused to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Or even for that leading to her falling to the dark side, which he could also have prevented (by killing her in their duel, which he won), and that she then went on to kill other jedi. Those lives are thus on Jolee's conscience in the sense that they could have prevented, if he had killed his wife, when she turned against him.

[The Great Phantom]

But, just a while ago I was 'yelled at' for even suggesting that the no-love idea had been implemented because of the war with Exar Kun, where 'love' caused many deaths, including several Jedi's fall to the Dark Side...

 

Edit: Okay, I've read back a bit, and I think I know where this is going... Anybody remember the thirty-page topic called something like "Kae=...Kreia?" or something like that? I do... *shudder*

 

So, who has any SOLID proof that Kreia is Kae? Personally, I think that she knew Kae... now, whether that knowledge goes down to the state of being Kae, I don't know... I was never really persuaded either way, to tell the truth...

 

Edited March 1, 2006 by The Great Phantom

[DeathScepter]

I do think that the relationship between Kreia and Kae is like if there was no revelation scene for the PC/Revan relationship for Kotor 1.

 

 

There is evidence but there is no concrete proof either way.

[Jediphile]

But, just a while ago I was 'yelled at' for even suggesting that the no-love idea had been implemented because of the war with Exar Kun, where 'love' caused many deaths, including several Jedi's fall to the Dark Side...

 

Edit: Okay, I've read back a bit, and I think I know where this is going... Anybody remember the thirty-page topic called something like "Kae=...Kreia?" or something like that? I do... *shudder*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure. It's right here. I participated heavily in it myself. It's closed now, but referring to it might be enlightening.

 

So, who has any SOLID proof that Kreia is Kae? Personally, I think that she knew Kae... now, whether that knowledge goes down to the state of being Kae, I don't know... I was never really persuaded either way, to tell the truth...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Kreia is Kae, but I would concur with DeathScepter that there is no concrete proof either way. The nay-sayers have not been able to put up an argument against Kreia being Kae that couldn't be questioned, at least not as far as I could tell. Those who do do believe that Kreia is Kae, like myself, have pointed to evidence that supports the theory, but still cannot be called proof. There are a bit too many similarities between Kreia and Kae for me to ignore. Could be coincidence, but as M.r Garak would put it on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - "I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences..." :D

[Plano Skywalker]

I do think that the relationship between Kreia and Kae is like if there was no revelation scene for the PC/Revan relationship for Kotor 1.

 

There is evidence but there is no concrete proof either way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think that is right. It is, essentially, a well-placed Easter Egg that could be used in future games/comics.

 

But, right now, it is nothing.

[The Great Phantom]

But, just a while ago I was 'yelled at' for even suggesting that the no-love idea had been implemented because of the war with Exar Kun, where 'love' caused many deaths, including several Jedi's fall to the Dark Side...

 

Edit: Okay, I've read back a bit, and I think I know where this is going... Anybody remember the thirty-page topic called something like "Kae=...Kreia?" or something like that? I do... *shudder*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure. It's right here. I participated heavily in it myself. It's closed now, but referring to it might be enlightening.

 

So, who has any SOLID proof that Kreia is Kae? Personally, I think that she knew Kae... now, whether that knowledge goes down to the state of being Kae, I don't know... I was never really persuaded either way, to tell the truth...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Kreia is Kae, but I would concur with DeathScepter that there is no concrete proof either way. The nay-sayers have not been able to put up an argument against Kreia being Kae that couldn't be questioned, at least not as far as I could tell. Those who do do believe that Kreia is Kae, like myself, have pointed to evidence that supports the theory, but still cannot be called proof. There are a bit too many similarities between Kreia and Kae for me to ignore. Could be coincidence, but as M.r Garak would put it on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine - "I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences..." :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is no such thing as coincidences... Only the Force.

 

Yep, that's the topic... There was one before that one that was about as long, but was also closed eventually... It's like the Chinese (no offense, I'm being serious): Rise, fall for a while, rise, and then fall for a while in an era of chaos, rise again, fall, go communist, rise... rise... still rising...

 

Has anybody NOT read the chronicles for KotorII? It tells how Kreia went to M5 after Revan had disappeared, confused and trying to find out what went wrong, maybe even some evidence to allow her to rationalize that his 'fall' was not her fault, but the Jedi's...

Edited March 1, 2006 by The Great Phantom

[alanschu]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if the Disciple lists the master's in reverse chronological order, how come he would say that he did not know who came after Kae if Kae was the first?

[Jediphile]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if the Disciple lists the master's in reverse chronological order, how come he would say that he did not know who came after Kae if Kae was the first?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've been wondering that too, since it does seem to be a reference to Kreia.

 

I don't see how it really can be if Kreia and Kae are two separate people, if we accept that Kreia was Revan's first master.

 

So the way I see it is that there are two possibilities:

 

1. The master Disciple refers to is someone totally unknown to us - it's not Zhar, Dorak, Kae and/or Kreia, or any other that we've heard of having ever taught Revan. Why Disciple would not remember that is very odd indeed, though.

 

2. It is Kreia/Kae, only she has somehow "split" herself into two people in Disciple's mind. Kae has history with the jedi order - there's no denying that - so instead of trying to remove her entire existence from the Disciple's mind, she allows the early history of her time to be known to him as that of Master Kae, but leaves him with the impression that the later history was another teacher - Kreia - which she then expels from his mind, so that she can hide her association with Revan for her Kreia identity as well as the dark teachings Revan learned from her, and which the council felt had led Revan to his fall, and which they exiled her for.

 

As you can probably guess, I favor the latter...

[alanschu]

I don't see how it really can be if Kreia and Kae are two separate people, if we accept that Kreia was Revan's first master.

 

Why? Where is it mentioned that Kae is the first master? When he lists them in "reverse chronological order," is it explicitly stated that it is in that order, or did we as gamers read into it that it was reverse chronological order?

 

 

2. It is Kreia/Kae, only she has somehow "split" herself into two people in Disciple's mind.

 

I don't know. It sounds like you're stretching things here to fit what you believe.

[Darth Thingy]

I agree with alanschu..

[BattleCookiee]

I agree with Darth Thingy

[SSgtSniper]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if the Disciple lists the master's in reverse chronological order, how come he would say that he did not know who came after Kae if Kae was the first?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Irrelevant. I have said twice now, he remembers the first, and the last few, (the ones of recent years) but not a lot in the middle. Why? Human nature. Hell, even I tend to do the same thing, without a set of notes or materials in front of me.

[The Great Phantom]

Well, I guess that we can only compare what he says to what Kreia says: Kreia says that she was there when Revan was "discovered" to be Force Sensitive, and that later, he returned to her when he was falling to the Dark Side, to find out "the best way" to leave the Order... whatever that's supposed to mean.

 

Now, Disciple mentions a lot of Masters, including that one twi'lek guy that I forget the name of "without a set of notes... in front of me" ( ), and says that, at the end, it is RUMORED that he returned to his '1st Master'. If we assume that this is Kreia, then she would have been telling the truth... for once.

 

Hmmm...

[alanschu]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if the Disciple lists the master's in reverse chronological order, how come he would say that he did not know who came after Kae if Kae was the first?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Irrelevant. I have said twice now, he remembers the first, and the last few, (the ones of recent years) but not a lot in the middle. Why? Human nature. Hell, even I tend to do the same thing, without a set of notes or materials in front of me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, I only made it up to page 9.

 

I imagine you have abandoned the idea that they were mentioned in reverse chronological order?

[Gabrielle]

Interesting, very interesting.

[SSgtSniper]

Not sure if this was mentioned, but if the Disciple lists the master's in reverse chronological order, how come he would say that he did not know who came after Kae if Kae was the first?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Irrelevant. I have said twice now, he remembers the first, and the last few, (the ones of recent years) but not a lot in the middle. Why? Human nature. Hell, even I tend to do the same thing, without a set of notes or materials in front of me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Well, I only made it up to page 9.

 

I imagine you have abandoned the idea that they were mentioned in reverse chronological order?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, they are done in reverse, I just think those are the only ones he can remember. And as I can remember the first time I kissed someone, and when I kissed my wife ten minutes ago, but not every one in between, I feel he remembers most of the last few and the first one Revan had.

[alanschu]

Hmmm, it still just sounds like you're trying to stretch the facts to match your expectations now.

 

Yes, there have been extensive studies about memory and whatnot, but the Disciple was a scholar that dedicated good chunks of his life to researching this.

 

If his list is indeed in reverse chronological order, I think it's a bit of a stretch that the name preceding Kae was not the trainer immediately after her. You changed your argument to match up with your conclusion, which is a science no no.

[SSgtSniper]

No, I didn't. I base the assumption (and it is one) on me. I'm currently going back to school for an associates, and hoping eventually a BS in Computer Science (IT/Programming) and one of my cores is a history class. The same history class everyone has to take, blah blah, you know the drill. I am the top of the curve in my class, yet without my notes and a lot of quiet time to study, I would lose a lot of details. When we did a recent debate on Reconstruction I relied heavily on my notes both for my side and quick jot downs to rebutt, because I would have forgotten points in the five minutes I had to wait. So for Mical to remember the last part of Revan's training, and his first master (who more recently he suppossedly visited with) would fit entirely into what I would expect. Give you another example. I can in reverse chronological order tell you the last ten Presidents, and the first three. Other than Lincoln and Hayes, I couldn't tell you most of 4-30. Get the point?

 

 

If his list is indeed in reverse chronological order, I think it's a bit of a stretch that the name preceding Kae was not the trainer immediately after her

 

Your wording here confruses me a bit. There was no name listed by him after Kae. She is the very last name he lists-

Disciple- "Master Vandar, Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars."

So I'm going to ask you to rephrase as I did Jediphile a short time back.

Edited March 2, 2006 by SSgtSniper

[Guest The Architect]

It's funny how no one ever says 'Revan had many masters including Vandar, Zhar, Dorak, Kae AND Kreia'. It's always Kae OR Kreia but not both, you see what I'm getting at?

 

People say there is no proof that Kreia is Kae, well that is correct, however, there is no proof that Kreia is not Kae too.

Edited March 2, 2006 by The Architect

[The Great Phantom]

Exactly. It is a fair assumption to make that Kreia had some sort of knowledge of Kae, maybe even a prior association...

 

I still think it another possibility that Kae might have been one of Kreia's 'failures', whom Revan sought out because she was talked of highly by his first and last Master...

 

Maybe not, though.

[Canaan Aphettu]

It's funny how no one ever says 'Revan had many masters including Vandar, Zhar, Dorak, Kae AND Kreia'. It's always Kae OR Kreia but not both, you see what I'm getting at?

 

People say there is no proof that Kreia is Kae, well that is correct, however, there is no proof that Kreia is not Kae too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Working on that logic, my new theory is:

 

Kreia is actually Jolee Bindo. He had extensive surgery between K1 and K2. After all, there's no proof they aren't one in the same?

 

While it's possible that Kreia could be Handmaiden's mother, I would expect that their relationship might be shown in a different way - Kreia regards Handmaiden as nothing more than a tool. If she's willing to die for the Exile, because of her love. surely she'd at least spend a little time with her actual biological daughter.

 

Besides, doesn't Kreia kill all the Handmaidens if the Exile is female?

[BattleCookiee]

It's funny how no one ever says 'Revan had many masters including Vandar, Zhar, Dorak, Kae AND Kreia'. It's always Kae OR Kreia but not both, you see what I'm getting at?

 

People say there is no proof that Kreia is Kae, well that is correct, however, there is no proof that Kreia is not Kae too.

 

That's because Kreia used her "forget me mindtrick" on Atris and the other Jedi Council masters... she confesses that if you ask when having enough Awareness...

 

Also, she was exiled because the council blamed her for the fall of Revan and during the Jedi Council Exile of the Exile they also spoke about how "her" students all fell to the Darkside and were all failures, hmmmm...

 

And if Handmaiden enters the ship you can ask Kreia "You seem to hate the Handmaiden, why is that?" and then she plans to use her as a pawn to lure out and expose Atris. Not exactly what one would do to their daughter, no?

 

And about why she does not wish Handmaiden and Exile to interact... well, she also doens't wan't Exile to get intimate with Visas, does she?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Since you get a little bit of the story from characters who you can't have at the same time. It was likely something that was going to be expanded up, but then dropped.

 

It's also kind of cheesey if your have Exile and Handmaiden at Traya Core , and Kreia saying "Brianna , I am your Mother" !

 

However it does shed some light on Kreia's motives which would otherwise go unexplained.

[Master Jabba]

"Brianna , I am your Mother" !

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Now THAT would have had me rolling on the floor :D