Believe

[Diamond]

Free will just an illusion?

Hell why not.

If you assume that movements of elementary particles in the universe (including your brain) is deterministic then we don't have free will.

[LadyCrimson]

If a man is stripped of everything, he still has the choice to determine his own attitude no matter what situation he is in. You can be miserable at work, or create a sense of humor. This is just a hypothesis i've been thinking about lately.

 

Biochemistry and attitude combine together to create peace or chaos. It's hard to control either one all the time - no matter how many times you may tell yourself to 'don't worry be happy' or try to convince yourself to be rational/practical vs. irrational/emotional it doesn't always work. Is that a failing of attitude or a failing of biochemistry? Does attitude influence biochemistry more than biochemistry influences attitude? Can you really seperate the two? I don't think we know enough to know that yet.

 

And yes, Fionavar, very subtle.

[LoneWolf16]

As for the world of darkness, perhaps people are getting more distant.  Human compassion may be breaking down to the point that people can get mugged on subway carriages while other people avert their eyes away from the incident just a few feet away.

 

On the other hand, there is great potential for good to happen.  Perhaps it is in darkness that light can shine brightly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On the mugging thing; I couldn't do that...I'd have to do something about it. I'd have to help, in some way or another, if that meant calling for a cop, taking off my shoe and beaning the mugger in the head, or tackling the bastard...I can't let something like that happen in front of me without acting.

 

My conscience would eat at me...

 

There's always the potential for good to happen. The problem is that, once one adopts an entirely negative view, even the positives, no matter their size, become negligible to the point that, to the person, they cease to exist.

 

Some of you may not agree...but I happen believe it's best to smile now and again, look up, and curse the humor of the powers that be. Then, you wipe some mud off of your new $400 suit that some passing truck just splashed you with, and find the local cleaners.

 

Life isn't all rainbows and butterflies...yet...they do exist.

[@\NightandtheShape/@]

I look out the window, observing the drones, living out their lifes hoping collectively that they're all heading in the right direction. How they'll mate, and have children, and the cycle will continue over and over, society declining into a pit abhorant hedonism. It's natural that most people feel nihilistic and misanthropic, but i don't, I smile... Because it means one thing, that things are finally starting to get back to normal, and this maddness - as I would call it, it's coming to an end.

 

Nature will soon reclaim everything.

 

The number of Humans alive will be vastly smaller, our technology destroied, our idealogies fragmented, weakend and perhaps gone all togeather. Nothing should survive, atleast nothing of this world. The cities will crumble!

 

Around this time we'll get back to doing what we're really good at. Which is Killing each other. Peace it's so unsettling, all that we think important will be gone and the world... It'll seem magical again to human kind.

 

It's a crap time to be alive, but hopefully my future kin have something to look forwards to .

[LoneWolf16]

You'd love George Carlin's sense of humor.

[Lucius]

We'll build huge space ships and fly away to conquer the galaxy long before that'll happen mate, by then nature will have failed at stopping us!

[WITHTEETH]

Free will just an illusion?

Hell why not.

If you assume that movements of elementary particles in the universe (including your brain) is deterministic then we don't have free will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rightly so, I still prefer the freewill juice compared to determinism. It just taste better.

[WITHTEETH]

If a man is stripped of everything, he still has the choice to determine his own attitude no matter what situation he is in. You can be miserable at work, or create a sense of humor. This is just a hypothesis i've been thinking about lately.

 

Biochemistry and attitude combine together to create peace or chaos. It's hard to control either one all the time - no matter how many times you may tell yourself to 'don't worry be happy' or try to convince yourself to be rational/practical vs. irrational/emotional it doesn't always work. Is that a failing of attitude or a failing of biochemistry? Does attitude influence biochemistry more than biochemistry influences attitude? Can you really seperate the two? I don't think we know enough to know that yet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Different thoughts create different chemical reactions if the conscious and subconscious is sincerly aware of the thought. If you change your mode of thought then your chemical reactions will change.

 

Have you ever reasoned your way out of stress by rationalizing putting off studying? but you have already said this works sometimes.

 

So why doesn't it always work? Lack of creativity, we are not always giving adequate reasons that our conscious and subconscious accept. Also our subconscious takes a bit longer to respond to our thoughts many times. This is an individuals jounrey inside himself, Self Actualization. If you can reach Self Actualization you are there. You may fall down emotionally, but soon you will pick yourself up again.

Edited January 3, 2006 by WITHTEETH

[Blarghagh]

society decays as it moves further from god as do the people who conduct the same act.

 

I moved away from God because he decays society. "God Hates ****", anyone? Things like that is what decays society.

 

EDIT: What, I can't use a synonym for a bundle of sticks now? I have gay friends who don't mind.

Edited January 3, 2006 by TrueNeutral

[Surreptishus]

Although persecuted groups claim to have reclaimed derogatory remarks there are those that disagree and the rest of us still think its taboo and so to avoid any problems its best left censored... or so the theory goes.

[Judge Hades]

We have limited free will, influenced by our environment and genetics.

[butterfly]

Free will just an illusion?

Hell why not.

If you assume that movements of elementary particles in the universe (including your brain) is deterministic then we don't have free will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When faced with an important decision what is free will: choosing the best choice after careful consideration or just randomly picking one. The first choice is deterministic, the second is not.

 

Determinisme does not impede free will. I personally don't understand how one can have free will under non-determinisme.

 

qwb,

[Diamond]

When faced with an important decision what is free will: choosing the best choice after careful consideration or just randomly picking  one. The first choice is deterministic, the second is not.

 

Determinisme does not impede free will. I personally don't understand how one can have free will under non-determinisme.

 

qwb,

The issue I stated is that if all the molecules (and smaller elementary particles) are moving according to physics we know, then there is a predefined path for each of them for the next eternity, hence our thinking is defined by it. We may think that we choose, but really our brain consist of those particles which will move in a pre-defined manner. That's what I mean by determinism.

[butterfly]

When faced with an important decision what is free will: choosing the best choice after careful consideration or just randomly picking  one. The first choice is deterministic, the second is not.

 

Determinisme does not impede free will. I personally don't understand how one can have free will under non-determinisme.

 

qwb,

The issue I stated is that if all the molecules (and smaller elementary particles) are moving according to physics we know, then there is a predefined path for each of them for the next eternity, hence our thinking is defined by it. We may think that we choose, but really our brain consist of those particles which will move in a pre-defined manner. That's what I mean by determinism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's a coincedence, that's also what i mean with determinisme. What are the odds.

 

I just don't see how pure random chance, because that's what non-determinisme is, constitute more free will than a deterministic mechanism. Think about it, is it anymore free will if your choice is purely an outcome of chance. I'd rather have my choices be determined by my own reasoning, and that reasoning is the laws of physics acting on the particles of my brain.

 

qwb,

Edited January 3, 2006 by butterfly

[Diamond]

I never mentioned random chance (which surely doesn't give free will). My reasoning here was that if I cannot change things on a fundamental level, then there is no free will. I can't change the molecules I consist of (and molecules of universe I'm surrounded by) as they and their motion comprise me and my actions as well as all motion in the universe. Hence all my actions and thoughts are pre-defined and the matter I consist of doesn't choose how to move, it just moves.

 

So it is just a different level of thinking, kind of "free will at micro level".

And what could give free will? I guess it will have to break our knowledge of the physics of the world we know.

[butterfly]

I never mentioned random chance (which surely doesn't give free will). My reasoning here was that if I cannot change things on a fundamental level, then there is no free will. I can't change the molecules I consist of (and molecules of universe I'm surrounded by) as they and their motion comprise me and my actions as well as all motion in the universe. Hence all my actions and thoughts are pre-defined and the matter I consist of doesn't choose how to move, it just moves.

 

So it is just a different level of thinking, kind of "free will at micro level".

And what could give free will? I guess it will have to break our knowledge of the physics of the world we know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You say that free will can not coexist with determinism. That implies that if free will does exist the universe must be at least partial non-deterministic. So no, you did mention random chance, not literaly maybe but that's not really important.

 

Our current idea of how the world works is irrelevant, none of the arguments presented are based on any specific physic theorie. The universe is either deterministic or it isn't. I do not see how non-determinism allows free will, it just doesn't.

 

I find it intriguing that in your reasoning about why free will and determinism are incompatible, free will is not used. You just state the definition of determinism, followed by the conclusion.

 

Sure you can't do everything, you can only do what you want.

 

qwb,

Edited January 3, 2006 by butterfly

[WITHTEETH]

I still say free will can be acheived once one knows themselves. If once knows themselves they can control their own path, control their emotions, and perspective.

 

Imagine yourself riding in a car on autopilot. Your not choosing when your not steering, you are being determined by the car. Imagine the car as being natural law and nurture guiding you where it would naturally go.

 

Whats from stopping you from taking the steering wheel? Your subconscious, conscious, and will. If you are self actualized you can steer. If you know yourself, you don't aways have to take the narual course of keeping that crappy job you hate, or you could make the job better yourself. You could simply look at the job in a new perspective also. You are not being determined anymore, you are not being oin autopilot. Autopilot is ignorance. You are now what Nietzche would call an ubermencsh who does not go along with "the crowd".

 

As spock said "there are always possibilities", there is not just one possibility in nature, and not just one in nurture. We have choices, I believe we can stretch our minds to determine ourselves -- control which law determines us, thus freewill.

 

That person could be determined to have free will. This argument has now became circular, a paradox. Perhaps those who have free will have it, those who do not, do not. Its relative, subjective.

Edited January 3, 2006 by WITHTEETH

[Dark Moth]

society decays as it moves further from god as do the people who conduct the same act.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I moved away from God because he decays society. "God Hates ****", anyone? Things like that is what decays society.

 

EDIT: What, I can't use a synonym for a bundle of sticks now? I have gay friends who don't mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Many would disagree, and argue that God helps build society.

 

"Love your enemies"

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

 

I'ts really how people intepret religion that matters.

[Judge Hades]

Yeah, if He really practices what He preaches there wouldn't be eternal damnation.

 

God, biggest hiipocrit in the universe.

[Dark Moth]

Yeah, if He really practices what He preaches there wouldn't be eternal damnation. 

 

God, biggest hiipocrit in the universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, that's only your opinion and interpretation, isn't it?

 

Also, using your "all gray" philosphy, it should be perfectly okay. Right? Or are you the hypocrite?

Edited January 4, 2006 by Mothman

[Judge Hades]

Of course I am. I was made in God's image.

[Gabrielle]

Many would disagree, and argue that God helps build society. 

 

"Kill your enemies"

"Do unto others as you would do unto you"

 

I'ts really how people intepret religion that matters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Dark Moth]

Oh, shut it. For one thing, I doubt you've ever touched a Bible in your lifetime. And don't make statements like that or you'll only offend others and make yourself look ignorant. <_< Oh, but why do that when ignorance is bliss, right?

Edited January 4, 2006 by Mothman

[Gabrielle]

Oh, shut it.  For one thing, I doubt you've ever touched a Bible in your lifetime.  And don't make statements like that or you'll only offend others and make yourself look ignorant.  <_<  Oh, but why do that when ignorance is bliss, right? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You lost your cool? I'm amazed. I assume this was directed at Hades and not myself. Actually I have opened and read the bible, but that was many years ago.

[Dark Moth]

*ahem*

 

Well, I was ranting, sorry. Your post looked like another attack, and Hades's remarks can get on one's nerves after a while. And you must understand, it's been one of those days.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Mothman