The Religion Thread

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

I'd hate them for it.

[kirottu]

Integral part of your belief that you were born to this world unworthy and you have worship God to be saved from eternal damnation and God created man and this world. This was my point from very beginning and it is something I can never accept. It is abusive. It is blackmail and it is evil.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well imagine it like you have parents with really high standards but you couldn't deliver, but they still love you and are always ready/want to welcome you back with open arms.

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So no eternal damnation? Hell is in very core of christian belief and there goes those that don

Edited December 7, 2005 by kirottu

[Atreides]

I'm not studied the bible enough to form a strong opinion on auto-damnation, but I'm pretty sure that if you're reasonably well informed and truly understand the "welcome back with open arms" part but spurn it (or whatever) then there are consequences, whatever they may be.

 

Of course it is reasonable to believe that people in different situations may understand the offer but be condidtioned to reject it (either in a environment of different religions, lack of religion etc). Then imo things get iffy - which is why I'll need to read up more.

 

As for the firebrand suffering and hell etc, that's the implication but not the essence of Christianity imo. Of course you can believe what you want, no doubt fueled by raving preachers and stereotypes perhaps but that's not it for me.

 

This is something that goes beyond the half full/half empty point of view as I believe that Christianity is mainly a message of redemption through love rather than "You ****ers are going to die lol".

[kirottu]

"You ****ers are going to die lol".

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Funny as hell.

[WITHTEETH]

Zoroastrianism is rather interesting.

 

Likely what the old testement evolved from.

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Yes i agree, and that evolved from Egytian religion. There are also great parrallels between Caesar and Jesus, and even with Siddhartha (Buddha).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Zoroastrianism is rather interesting.

 

Likely what the old testement evolved from.

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Yes i agree, and that evolved from Egytian religion. There are also great parrallels between Caesar and Jesus, and even with Siddhartha (Buddha).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think Artenism is the first religion which claimed there was a single deity.

 

The concepts of heaven and hell are very good form of social control. Especailly among the less learned people of the time.

 

Also the primary reason why state and religion were intertwined until very recently (although still in some places).

 

I see far more evidence for man creating god than the other way around.

[kirottu]

I see far more evidence for man creating god than the other way around.

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Maybe I have read too much fantasy novels, but sometimes I think it

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Maybe I have read too much fantasy novels, but sometimes I think it

[Lucius]

..but doesn't indonesia have the largest muslim populaton in the world?

 

Days named after norse gods:

 

Tuesday - Tiw, god of war

Wednesday - Woden/Odin

Thursday - Thor

Friday - Freya

 

Woden is the Anglo saxon name for Odin.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

According to Wiki Monday and Sunday derives from Norse gods as well. The god of the Moon "M

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Couldnt remember who saturn was supposed to represent. Knew it was Roman,just not which one. Turns out It's Cronos. Or has the Romans have it Roman god of agriculture

 

I always thought it was a rather new discovery.

Edited December 7, 2005 by ShadowPaladin V1.0

[Blank]

Well imagine it like you have parents with really high standards but you couldn't deliver, but they still love you and are always ready/want to welcome you back with open arms.

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luke 15:1-3,11b-31

 

Then all the tax collectors and the sinners drew near to Him to hear Him. And the Pharisees and scribes complained, saying,

[Janmanden]

Originally a week was only 4 days: tuesday-friday, Tyr, Odin, Tor, Freja/Frigg). Maybe it was a working week and when everybody was being sick mondays, it was kinda pointless to even count that day and since they were probably drunk the other two days as well, noone could remember they had ever existed - and later more days were added due to to religion... That killed the spirit.

 

However, I'd say that the seven 'days' of creation (before Adam and Eve were kicked out) are not actual days, but rather symbolism to explain the beginnings of the world, and thus a much longer time period.

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What else is symbolism?

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This is one of the places where a fundamentalist Christian and a Christian that is not fundamentalist would disagree. It just seems like, when you read the passage, that it isn't talking about long periods of time, rather, a day as we know it (the original text's word for "day" is the equivalent of a morning to night cycle.

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So God worked 24 hours a day plus nights....and until IT created light it was a pretty long night, as far as the story goes...right?

[WITHTEETH]

Couldnt remember who saturn was supposed to represent. Knew it was Roman,just not which one. Turns out It's Cronos. Or has the Romans have it Roman god of agriculture 

 

I always thought it was a rather new discovery.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you know who Julius Divius is?

 

MOD EDIT-Fixed quote and post. tarna

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Do you know who Julius Divius is?

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Divine Julius ?

 

Turns out I was looking at the moon date discoveries :">

[SteveThaiBinh]

Is there any reason to have a seven-day week, other than that the religions seem to demand it? I could go for a six-day week (four work, two weekend ).

[Commissar]

Is there any reason to have a seven-day week, other than that the religions seem to demand it?  I could go for a six-day week (four work, two weekend ).

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Seven is sort of an odd number. You'd think ten would be the most natural.

[tarna]

Others don't even care if their religion is the 'right one'. They simply follow the belief system that suits them best. Polytheists and Pantheists tend to view Diety this way. The right god for you may not be the one I'm looking for. A Diety may be recognised by a person but not followed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would they not care if it is right!? that is very disturbing. I know many people would agree with me that extremist terrorists are a result of that, among some other reasons. I don't understand why one wouldn't want the truth. this boggles my mind.

"They simply follow the belief system that suits them best"

humans are lazy creatures...

Those that think that are shallow thinkers. It is those that 'know' that they follow the true and only way that create religious tensions amongst themselves and others. Those that are not interested in furthering their faith are not likely to go to war for purposes of 'converting the heathens'. The heathens would usually prefer to simply be left alone. Heathen means 'of the hearth' by the way. Doesn't sound so threatening to one's faith in that context does it?

Polytheists believing in many gods adds variety to the religious 'banquet' if you will. Pantheists see Diety in nature and tend to be less destructive. Pantheists also have little or no interest in converting new people to their faith.

What harm can you possibly find in that?

 

As far as 'Truth' goes...what truth? Why is your 'Truth' more true than mine? Many faiths are what are called 'Revelatory' religions. Christianity, Judism and Islam are examples of revelatory religions. All is revealed.

Pagan faiths are typically 'Mystery' religions where the adherants must learn and solve the 'Truth' for themselves. Hence the 'mystery' part. People that spend time attempting to understand life's mysteries tend to have a little deeper understanding of those around them ( and even less interest in interfering ).

I'm celtic but I'd still have a beer with Odin.

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This is one of the most appealing differences between today's religions and some of the older ones. People partied with their Gods. I can't imagine too many church socials where God was invited to share a beer with them.

Odin has his own day as well, although its hard to gather when you hear it in English, "Wednesday". ("Onsdag" in Danish)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wodensdag was the version I'd always heard.

Days named after norse gods:

 

Tuesday - Tiw, god of war and god of agreements ( also known as Tir/Tyr )

Wednesday - Woden/Odin

Thursday - Thor

Friday - Freya

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[Judge Hades]

Is there any reason to have a seven-day week, other than that the religions seem to demand it?  I could go for a six-day week (four work, two weekend ).

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Seven is sort of an odd number. You'd think ten would be the most natural.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

YES! Lets decimelize time!

[Kor Qel Droma]

7's the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 doors. 7, man, that's the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby.

[Reveilled]

I don't understand why so many Americans are religious. I mean, didn't you guys fight a war because your leader was demanding tribute from you without giving you a say in how things were done?

 

I mean, jeez, you don't get much more "no taxation without representation" than you do with God.

 

That was the advantage of the Polytheistic religions. If your god started 'pressin' you, you could just kick his ass.

 

But with Monotheistic gods, it doesn't work like that. If you think God's doing a poor job, he and his party get all "Don't yo geteth all uppity, biatch! I casteth yo into hell, ho!" And not only that, when it comes to Judement day, will I get a trial by Jury? I bet I won't! What is the procedure for impeaching God?

 

Basically, God seems to think that just because he's omnipotent, and omniscient and omnithatjazz that somehow gives him the right to tell us what to do. It doesn't.

 

 

It is somewhat fortunate, then, that she's actually nothing like that.

[Blank]

Pantheists also have little or no interest in converting new people to their faith.

What harm can you possibly find in that?

 

As far as 'Truth' goes...what truth? Why is your 'Truth' more true than mine? Many faiths are what are called 'Revelatory' religions. Christianity, Judism and Islam are examples of revelatory religions. All is revealed.

Pagan faiths are typically 'Mystery' religions where the adherants must learn and solve the 'Truth' for themselves. Hence the 'mystery' part. People that spend time attempting to understand life's mysteries tend to have a little deeper understanding of those around them ( and even less interest in interfering ).

#1- I don't find harm in the fact that pantheists have little or no interest in conversion.

#2- i was not claiming that all should come to "my" truth because it is the only right one. i'm not so arrogant as to think i am totally correct in all my thinking.

#3- I said humans are lazy because i was referring to the fact that some people know they are probably not right but they don't attempt to change that. to me, that is disturbing, but whether it is because they are lazy or for another reason, i don't know. i just attributed it to laziness because that was the most logical reason i could think of.

#4- "People that spend time attempting to understand life's mysteries tend to have a little deeper understanding of those around them"

i wish more christians would do that too.

#5- you when you believe you are "right", it takes extra self-control to not force your thoughts upon people

#6- if you thought you were "right" and you didn't force your thoughts upon people, then you either think that forcing your thoughts won't help get your point across, or you aren't very convicted of your belief. so assuming most christians are insensitive, we can infer that they at least are very convicted that they are "right". however, i am not limiting the reasons people have for doing things into two different choices, but i think in general this is the case.

#7- no, "of the hearth" is not very intimidating to me

I don't understand why so many Americans are religious.  I mean, didn't you guys fight a war because your leader was demanding tribute from you without giving you a say in how things were done?

no.

I mean, jeez, you don't get much more "no taxation without representation" than you do with God.

 

That was the advantage of the Polytheistic religions.  If your god started 'pressin' you, you could just kick his ass.

if i could kick my god's butt then i wouldn't think much of his power and i obviously wouldn't think he was right. so why he would be my god is beyond me.

But with Monotheistic gods, it doesn't work like that.  If you think God's doing a poor job, he and his party get all "Don't yo geteth all uppity, biatch!  I casteth yo into hell, ho!"

God never said that... however, i am not so dense as to only refute you with that stupid response. if you think God is doing a poor job, he does not punish you (that i know of, in the Bible...) He will not cast you into hell if you think he is doing a bad job. i believe that God wants you to express your feelings to Him. Heck, just read Psalms. A lot of them are people feeling that God needs to do something different about certain things.

And not only that, when it comes to Judement day, will I get a trial by Jury?  I bet I won't!  What is the procedure for impeaching God?

i will take this as humour, because what else it could be escapes me. Jesus is omniscient, like you even say yourself, so who the heck needs a jury when they are judged by Him? Jesus does the job better than anyone else could. No one else is capable of it. You can't impeach God because you didn't elect Him and He doesn't give you that option. trust Him, God knows what is best for you and everyone else. He is not willing that anyone should perish.

Basically, God seems to think that just because he's omnipotent, and omniscient and omnithatjazz that somehow gives him the right to tell us what to do.  It doesn't.

It is somewhat fortunate, then, that she's actually nothing like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"omnithatjazz"

Reveilled, revealed here is your new favourite passage in the Bible

 

Romans 9:18-22

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Edited December 8, 2005 by Blank

[Reveilled]

It was sillyness, with a tinge of seriousness. "

 

But being serious, since you answered some of the less serious stuff so, then:

I don't understand why so many Americans are religious.  I mean, didn't you guys fight a war because your leader was demanding tribute from you without giving you a say in how things were done?

no.

 

Seriously? The way I always understood the Revolutionary War was that your leader (the King of Great Britain and his parliament) was demanding high levels of taxation from you without giving you any representation in parliament, and so you decided you'd rather not have him as your leader anymore.

 

I mean, jeez, you don't get much more "no taxation without representation" than you do with God.

 

That was the advantage of the Polytheistic religions.  If your god started 'pressin' you, you could just kick his ass.

if i could kick my god's butt then i wouldn't think much of his power and i obviously wouldn't think he was right. so why he would be my god is beyond me.

 

What does his power have to do with his correctness? Just because god is powerful, doesn't mean he is right, does it? Why should it be the other way around?

 

But with Monotheistic gods, it doesn't work like that.  If you think God's doing a poor job, he and his party get all "Don't yo geteth all uppity, biatch!  I casteth yo into hell, ho!"

God never said that... however, i am not so dense as to only refute you with that stupid response. if you think God is doing a poor job, he does not punish you (that i know of, in the Bible...) He will not cast you into hell if you think he is doing a bad job. i believe that God wants you to express your feelings to Him. Heck, just read Psalms. A lot of them are people feeling that God needs to do something different about certain things.

 

But if God claims to be Omniscient, wouldn't changing his policies effectively be like admitting his previous policy was wrong? Thus, would expressing my grievances to God produce any change? And what if I decide that I'm not going to follow god's rule because I believe it is wrong? Will god respect my right to a different opinion, or will he call it a sin and cast me into hell?

 

And not only that, when it comes to Judement day, will I get a trial by Jury?  I bet I won't!  What is the procedure for impeaching God?

i will take this as humour, because what else it could be escapes me. Jesus is omniscient, like you even say yourself, so who the heck needs a jury when they are judged by Him? Jesus does the job better than anyone else could. No one else is capable of it.

 

Even if Jesus was omniscient, that would not preclude him lying about my actions. At best, Jesus could be a witness. And even then, what evidence can be shown that Jesus actually knows my crimes. He claims to be omniscient, but what reason do I have to accept that claim? Omniscience isn't a prerequisite for Godhood (the god I believe in certainly isn't), so his simple existence would prove nothing in that regard.

 

You can't impeach God because you didn't elect Him and He doesn't give you that option. trust Him, God knows what is best for you and everyone else. He is not willing that anyone should perish.

 

But I don't trust him. Why should I? I've got plenty of reasons not to trust him. Case in point, he doesn't believe in the principles of Democracy.

[Judge Hades]

God has given me no reason to trust him or his word. Hell, he cannot make up His mind in how am I supposed to worship him. We got Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and all the little subgroups within them. We have Bahai, Bhuddism, Hinduism, and all sorts of pagan religions.

 

Not one religion looks more credible or right than another. Why would I trust a god that can't even make up his own mind on how he is to be worshipped?

[Blank]

Seriously?  The way I always understood the Revolutionary War was that your leader (the King of Great Britain and his parliament) was demanding high levels of taxation from you without giving you any representation in parliament, and so you decided you'd rather not have him as your leader anymore.

oh, i didn't know what you were talking about (i was thinking current events) so you are right about that.

What does his power have to do with his correctness?  Just because god is powerful, doesn't mean he is right, does it?  Why should it be the other way around?

He created "correctness" and "correctness" is what defines Him. If you have a different definition of "correct" then i believe it is wrong (i.e. i believe God's definition is right since everything He does defines what "right" is, lol. sin/incorrectness is all the things that that are apart from Him.)

 

But if God claims to be Omniscient, wouldn't changing his policies effectively be like admitting his previous policy was wrong?  Thus, would expressing my grievances to God produce any change?  And what if I decide that I'm not going to follow god's rule because I believe it is wrong?  Will god respect my right to a different opinion, or will he call it a sin and cast me into hell?

That's why He doesn't change His policies... they were right evermore to begin with. However, in expressing your grievances it makes it easier to cope with His commands; and you need to understand that He hears what you are saying to Him and He cares. By telling Him these things you are entrusting Him with your feelings and i believe only good can come from entrusting God with things.

 

Even if Jesus was omniscient, that would not preclude him lying about my actions.  At best, Jesus could be a witness.  And even then, what evidence can be shown that Jesus actually knows my crimes.  He claims to be omniscient, but what reason do I have to accept that claim?  Omniscience isn't a prerequisite for Godhood (the god I believe in certainly isn't), so his simple existence would prove nothing in that regard.

Jesus can't lie! It is not in His character to do so, therefore He won't!

See below \/

 

James 1:17

"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above, who created all heaven's lights. Unlike them, he never changes or casts shifting shadows."

But I don't trust him.  Why should I?  I've got plenty of reasons not to trust him.  Case in point, he doesn't believe in the principles of Democracy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One thing you might try is asking respectable christians you know about their personal experiences for why they trust God. You can always look at the Bible and see that God never breaks a promise. Democracy is not necessarily "Biblical", it is just a form of government that you deem fair. Say there was a fair ruler, that was always fair, then wouldn't that be the best government? The ruler would know what "fair" was and nobody could change the "fairness" of his choices. If somebody came along and had a different idea that was not fair, he wouldn't accept that unfair idea.

 

Well God is always fair like that, and He doesn't tyrannously control your life, but He offers the right choices to you, regardless of the fact that you know it is right or not. I point you to the passage in the Bible that i told you was your favourite: Romans 9.

 

If the god you believe in is not omniscient, then i wouldn't trust him either, that would be very stupid. like blindly following a random king that did whatever he wanted and didn't know that much. God is different, since He knows better than you do about EVERYTHING and He consistently does whatever He wants as long as it is "right", since that is all He does.

 

Again it comes back to the trust and faith thing. How can you know for sure that God is totally correct about everything? like i said before. examine followers of His Word that are actually obeying Him and see. I also want to ask you to examine your own heart and see what you feel. How can you deny God? agh, i give up for now, i mean, if we can't agree on that then it is kinda pointless for me to keep rambling on.

[Blank]

God has given me no reason to trust him or his word.  Hell, he cannot make up His mind in how am I supposed to worship him.  We got Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and all the little subgroups within them.  We have Bahai, Bhuddism, Hinduism, and all sorts of pagan religions.

 

Not one religion looks more credible or right than another.  Why would I trust a god that can't even make up his own mind on how he is to be worshipped?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and sorry Hades, all i can offer you is God as portrayed in the Holy Bible. i can't generate a faith you can believe in for you. that is your decision. at least you are open about this subject though, i appreciate that a lot