cbs poll on evolution vs. creationism

[Commissar]

God cannot die,the concept will exist as long as humans fear their own wretched demise.

 

Man made god.

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Which proves how stupid the human race is.

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Speak for yourself, monkey man!

 

*arr arr arr*

 

For tenpence worth: I think a lot more crimes are committed for want of religiously formed morals than are committed in the name of religion. How many murders are committed around the world because of theft, adultery and so on? And how many are committed for religion?

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There's a fallacy there. You assume that the morals that prevent theft, adultery, or murder in general are as a result of religion.

[Walsingham]

[quote name=Gabrielle' date='Nov 4 2005, 11:19

 

 

Speak for yourself, monkey man!

 

*arr arr arr*

 

For tenpence worth: I think a lot more crimes are committed for want of religiously formed morals than are committed in the name of religion. How many murders are committed around the world because of theft, adultery and so on? And how many are committed for religion?

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There's a fallacy there. You assume that the morals that prevent theft, adultery, or murder in general are as a result of religion.

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Equally, why blame religion for 'religious' murder?

[Commissar]

Permitted to violence in the Bible?!?!!!?!??!??! SURE THATS RIGHT IF YOU TOTALLY TWIST IT AND MAKE UP NEW THINGS AND SAY THAT THE BIBLE SAYS YOU CAN BE VIOLENT!!!!!

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Judges 16:27-30 - "Now the house was full of men and women ... about three thousand men and women.... And Samson called unto the Lord, and said ... strengthen me ... that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines.... And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood..... And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life. "

 

Lev. 24:16 - "He that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him."

 

Lev. 21:9 - "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire."

 

Dt. 13:6 - "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die."

 

2 Chr. 15:13 - "Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."

 

Ps. 58:10 - "The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. "

 

Sounds pretty violent to me.

[Commissar]

Equally, why blame religion for 'religious' murder? 

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Well, you'd be hard-pressed to make the case that religion (or an interpretation of it) isn't at fault for the numerous heretic/witch burnings throughout history. Similarly, though I don't fault religion itself for the Crusades or the Thirty Years' War, I certainly recognize that it was a primary motivation for the participants - though the latter is a perfect example of genuine religious fervor mating with political and material considerations to provoke something truly unholy.

Edited November 5, 2005 by Commissar

[Nartwak]

How accurate are the numbers on this website?

[Kaftan Barlast]

Actually, if you are truly a fundamentalist in your Bible interpreting, then you would see the hundreds of occasions where the Bible says to LOVE OTHERS.  THE BIBLE DOES NOT PERMIT VIOLENCE TO US!

 

(passages in Bible that command Christians to love others:

 

 

The thing is, for every part that speaks of love and nice things in the Bible and Koran or Tora or whatever.. there is atleast one passage about damnation, punishment and all sorts of nasty things that can be used to justify anything from beating your children to ethnic cleansing.

 

and it doesnt take a lot to give it a fundamentalist bend. In fact, there are plenty of passages that does in fact directly encourage violence.

[Dark Moth]

For one thing, if someone kills in the name of religion, that is their failing, not religion's. A lot of people are so quick to condemn religion itself for it's 'crimes' instead of blaming those who are too ignorant to interpret their own faith. Also, as I've said countless times already on these boards, Christianity does not support the Crusades, the witch burnings, the Spanish inquisition, or anything you can name. That is humanity's fault.

 

Islam, however, explicitely condones violence in the name of religion. It encourages its believers to go out and slay in the name of Allah. This is all according to the Quran. If you want verses, I shall be happy to post them. And unlike Christianity, Islam teaches that the Quran itself is the one and true word of god printed exactly as it was in heaven. Christianity however makes no such claim. Islam's empire was itself built on bloodshed. And look at it today. It's religious fanatics carry out atrocities all in the name of Allah. We've seen it on 9/11, and we are seeing it in Iraq.

[Darth Launch]

For one thing, if someone kills in the name of religion, that is their failing, not religion's.  A lot of people are so quick to condemn religion itself for it's 'crimes' instead of blaming those who are too ignorant to interpret their own faith.  Also, as I've said countless times already on these boards, Christianity does not support the Crusades, the witch burnings, the Spanish inquisition, or anything you can name.  That is humanity's fault. 

 

Islam, however, explicitely condones violence in the name of religion.  It encourages its believers to go out and slay in the name of Allah.  This is all according to the Quran.  If you want verses, I shall be happy to post them.  And unlike Christianity, Islam teaches that the Quran itself is the one and true word of god printed exactly as it was in heaven.  Christianity however makes no such claim.  Islam's empire was itself built on bloodshed.  And look at it today.  It's religious fanatics carry out atrocities all in the name of Allah.  We've seen it on 9/11, and we are seeing it in Iraq.

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[Kaftan Barlast]

If you want verses, I shall be happy to post them.

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Of course we want verses, you cant say something like that and not back it up.

[Dark Moth]

If you want verses, I shall be happy to post them.

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Of course we want verses, you cant say something like that and not back it up.

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Alright. un momento.

 

@DL: "

[213374U]

I see lots of folks here hurling quotes from the Bible at each other to back their arguments. Funny thing is, I don't think any of you have actually read the damn thing. Meaning you don't have all the pieces, and you are only arguing from what you have read elsewhere, written by people with an agenda.

 

It gets even better when that lack of knowledge about religion is coupled with ignorance of historical facts.

 

Religion is like money. It's an artificial invention that's mostly worthless, but has great value for a lot of people. Following this crappy analogy, it's neither intrinsically bad nor good, it simply depends on what you do with it.

 

Carry on with your pointless discussions. And I say pointless because it's obvious no one is going to convince anyone.

[Dark Moth]

Alright. Here are a few verses for those of you who doubt me.

 

Sura 2:216

Sura 9:29

Sura 8:38-40

Sura 9:5

Sura 5:35-37

Sura 8:65

 

Edited November 5, 2005 by Mothman

[Pidesco]

I see lots of folks here hurling quotes from the Bible at each other to back their arguments. Funny thing is, I don't think any of you have actually read the damn thing. Meaning you don't have all the pieces, and you are only arguing from what you have read elsewhere, written by people with an agenda.

 

It gets even better when that lack of knowledge about religion is coupled with ignorance of historical facts.

 

Religion is like money. It's an artificial invention that's mostly worthless, but has great value for a lot of people. Following this crappy analogy, it's neither intrinsically bad nor good, it simply depends on what you do with it.

 

Carry on with your pointless discussions. And I say pointless because it's obvious no one is going to convince anyone. 

 

If religion has value for a lot of people how can you call it worthless?

[213374U]

If religion has value for a lot of people how can you call it worthless?

You can't eat it, it doesn't protect you from cold, it can't take you to places (no, hell & heaven don't count), and for the majority, it's not enough to be happy.

 

Mostly worthless.

[Pidesco]

If religion has value for a lot of people how can you call it worthless?

You can't eat it, it doesn't protect you from cold, it can't take you to places (no, hell & heaven don't count), and for the majority, it's not enough to be happy.

 

Mostly worthless.

 

Ok. What is the point of religion, then?

[Dark Moth]

If religion has value for a lot of people how can you call it worthless?

You can't eat it, it doesn't protect you from cold, it can't take you to places (no, hell & heaven don't count), and for the majority, it's not enough to be happy.

 

Mostly worthless.

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A lot of it depends on how you define happiness. And no, I'm not talking about the food and shelter part. Ironically, recent studies have shown people with religion tend to be happier with their lives. It's because most of the major world religions tend to encourage people to look beyond themselves and materialism and to also be content with what they have. It gives people guidance on how to live and how to treat others. It provides a moral platform for many. You could point to all the strife and division it's caused, but to do that you'd also have to ignore the amount of unity, good, and brotherhood it has inspired as well. So no, it's not entirely worthless. Material-wise, yes. Spiritually-wise, no.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Alright.  Here are a few verses for those of you who doubt me. 

 

Sura 2:216

Sura 9:29

Sura 8:38-40

Sura 9:5

Sura 5:35-37

Sura 8:65

 

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Since you apparenthly couldnt be bothered to supply the actual quotes that I asked for, Ill find them myself. Gah...

 

 

2:216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

 

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low

 

8:38 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).

8:39 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do. Fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.

8:40 And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender - a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper

 

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

5:38 As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise

 

8:65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

[213374U]

Ok. What is the point of religion, then?

I'm an agnostic, buddy. You tell me.

[Dark Moth]

Thanks, Kafty. :"> Believe it or not, I was actually in the process of getting the verses myself after I realized my mistake. But thanks, anyway.

 

BTW, my version of the Quran (the Yusuf Ali translation) says something different for Sura 5:36. It reads -

 

"The punisment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: That is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;..."

 

I think you meant to type Sura 5:36, becuase 5:38 says something VERY different from what you typed.

Edited November 5, 2005 by Mothman

[WITHTEETH]

If religion has value for a lot of people how can you call it worthless?

You can't eat it, it doesn't protect you from cold, it can't take you to places (no, hell & heaven don't count), and for the majority, it's not enough to be happy.

 

Mostly worthless.

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Ok. What is the point of religion, then?

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Religion can save one from possible self destruction. What happens when someone loses the will to live? they may die. Religion is just another grip on reality, just like philosophy, statistics, and careers.

 

It may also be worth alot to politicians.

Edited November 5, 2005 by WITHTEETH

[Pidesco]

I'm an agnostic, buddy. You tell me.

 

Now, you're assuming I'm a religious guy.

I'm not, I just think religion has its uses.

 

Also, I was trying to point out that people are the ones who define what is or isn't valuable. So, for example, getting whipped gives pleasure to some people, hence they pay money for it, and hence it is worth something to them.

[Commissar]

I'm an agnostic, buddy. You tell me.

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Now, you're assuming I'm a religious guy.

I'm not, I just think religion has its uses.

 

Also, I was trying to point out that people are the ones who define what is or isn't valuable. So, for example, getting whipped gives pleasure to some people, hence they pay money for it, and hence it is worth something to them.

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That you chose that particular example tells me more than I want to know about you.

[Pidesco]

That you chose that particular example tells me more than I want to know about you.

 

Umm, I chose that example, because it was a pretty extreme example.

[213374U]

A lot of it depends on how you define happiness.

Nah, it doesn't. Either you're happy, or you're not. And for most people, religion can't make them happy once their base needs are covered.

 

 

It's because most of the major world religions tend to encourage people to look beyond themselves and materialism and to also be content with what they have.

Sure. That's why the Pope has a country of his own, dresses made with gold, and some other "unimportant" material crap. Yup, selflessness 4tw.

 

 

It gives people guidance on how to live and how to treat others.  It provides a moral platform for many.

In absence of a laic moral and civic education, sure. But then again, it's not the spiritual part of religion you're talking about, but the mundane one. And isn't the mundane supposed to be rather irrelevant, while religion promotes spirituality?

So if the benefits come from the mundane part of religion, what's the spirituality good for?

 

Organized religion is actually a masterwork tool for control of the masses. You provide a moral framework so people don't go around murdering each other merrily, and then you provide the means to mess with people's consciences so you can control them easily.

 

 

Spiritually-wise, no.

Sorry, I fail to see the need for an intermediary between me and God, assuming that such a thing exists.

[213374U]

Also, I was trying to point out that people are the ones who define what is or isn't valuable. So, for example, getting whipped gives pleasure to some people, hence they pay money for it, and hence it is worth something to them.

Good point, I guess. But a (pleasure?) whipping also falls under the "mostly worthless" category, just like the rest of the luxury commodities.

 

I don't think anyone has ever died because they went too long without being whipped, just like people doesn't die because they can't attend the sermon. And those who do die, have clinically diagnosable mental disorders.