The hunt continues....

[Commissar]

Us vs. them is perfectly acceptable thinking when there is, in fact, an us and a them.

 

What came first, the mentality or the reality?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know. I'm inclined to think the reality came first.

 

But hey, if you really wish to believe that there are not, in fact, people who wish to fly airplanes into American buildings, or detonate IEDs whenever a group of soldiers or Marines happen to patrol by them, or kidnap journalists, aid workers, contractors, and servicemen and women of all stripes, you go right ahead. I was responding to mkreku's absurd claim that there are no legitimate targets; the people who are targeting us are, indeed, very much legitimate, very much open to being hit back themselves. Or do you not believe that those committed to the performance of such acts agree to be shot in turn by their very actions?

 

As I told Battlewookiee, don't put words in my mouth. I'm not adopting Bush's stance; there certainly are a great many states and people in the world who are smack dab in the middle, not wanting to support the US' engagements against terrorists, nor wanting to support the terrorists' attacks on the US.

 

So tell me not to adopt and us vs. them mentality. Go on, tell me that the various Unpronounceable Martyrs Brigades and Unintelligible Armies running around Iraq are not a 'them.' Explain to me how those attempting to harm American citizens do not qualify as a 'them.' Oh, and hey - they don't discriminate, by the by. It ain't just us Yanks. I can tell you'd enjoy sitting down to tea and hummus with 'em, but you're a Westerner, man, so chances are you'd end up pissing yourself in one of those hostage videos like the rest.

[BattleCookiee]

So tell me not to adopt and us vs. them mentality.  Go on, tell me that the various Unpronounceable Martyrs Brigades and Unintelligible Armies running around Iraq are not a 'them.'  Explain to me how those attempting to harm American citizens do not qualify as a 'them.'  Oh, and hey - they don't discriminate, by the by.  It ain't just us Yanks.  I can tell you'd enjoy sitting down to tea and hummus with 'em, but you're a Westerner, man, so chances are you'd end up pissing yourself in one of those hostage videos like the rest.

 

Unpronouncable in your language maybe, but who says many things like Central Intelligence Agency isn't a Unpronouncable Hostage Agency for them?

Not everybody on the world speaks English, and thus have different names... A clear sign of evil ofcourse, just like the French!

 

Once there was a report of how the Americans acted in Iraq. They showed an American Force go into the house of some random Iraqi. Let's see how it went:

"Goddamn mother****er. Tell us where your ****ing terroristic ****ers are"

[Arabic for I don't understand]

"Answer my ****ing question, ****ing mother****er"

[Arabic for I don't understand]

*Americans rough him up a little and intimidate with their guns*

"Tell us where your ****ing terroristic buddies are, bitch!"

 

Yeah for the American way of finding terrorists and interrogation. Ofcourse without camera's there would have been torture involved, the US' little favorite activity...

 

And the US Vs. Them wasn't made by you when talking about Iraq. Even then it is quite "easy" to forget there are several other nationalities of armies in Iraq, like your big buddies the British. Why did you forget them? Because they don't do anything (false) or you wan't to boost your own morale about the US all by themselves holding Iraq from turning an even bigger mess?

 

And the terrorist DO wan't only the Yankees. Recently there was an hostage in the Gaza by these terrorists, and when they found out that the teachers of that American school were Europeans and not Yankees, they gave them a good treatment and released them as soon as they could...

[Atreides]

Once there was a report of how the Americans acted in Iraq. They showed an American Force go into the house of some random Iraqi. Let's see how it went:

"Goddamn mother****er. Tell us where your ****ing terroristic ****ers are"

[Arabic for I don't understand]

"Answer my ****ing question, ****ing mother****er"

[Arabic for I don't understand]

*Americans rough him up a little and intimidate with their guns*

"Tell us where your ****ing terroristic buddies are, bitch!"

That's a damn lot of mother****ers to be flying around the world to be interrogated.

[Surreptishus]

And the terrorist DO wan't only the Yankees. Recently there was an hostage in the Gaza by these terrorists, and when they found out that the teachers of that American school were Europeans and not Yankees, they gave them a good treatment and released them as soon as they could...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Could you provide a link to that particular story please?

 

Kidnapping of foreigners over the last year has been common in Gaza, the hostages are usually released quickly and unharmed.

As to the motives for kidnap, it is speculated that they are being done to destabilise the area, to embarrass the administration in the run up to elections.

[Judge Hades]

Efficiency depends on your own force. If you are only a few people against a far superior force then you use what means are necessary. If your forces are equal and stronger then it owuld be more efficient to rally the average citizen for your cause.

 

Battlewookie, I am equally certain that the roles were reverse in that little drama, that it was a US soldier being interrogated by terrorists that there would be equal if not more extreme form of torture used. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Judge Hades

[BattleCookiee]

Could you provide a link to that particular story please?

 

Sorry, newspaper. If I find the article online I will post a link...

 

Battlewookie, I am equally certain that the roles were reverse in that little drama, that it was a US soldier being interrogated by terrorists that there would be equal if not more extreme form of torture used.  What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

 

Did I tell they just interrogated a civilian? Sure, if the civilian got the soldiers hostage (how would he do that?) he would go and torture them...

Damn these citizens, far worse than any terrorist... "

Edited January 15, 2006 by Battlewookiee

[Judge Hades]

Um, what do you think a terrorist is. Just a citizen of a country, a civilian. Terrorists have no formal military structure. In fact they are more like a citizen militia like what the US had back inits founding days than anything else. Every civilian is a potential terrorist and every civilian is a potential soldier.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Judge Hades

[BattleCookiee]

And that would make it OK to enter a random house and interrogate the people like that?

 

Sorry, but that doesn't get in with me.

After you killed the entire American population "because they could potentially be terroristists" you can try fishing for killings in other countries...

 

No wonder the CIA is so screwed up about kidnapping everybody everywhere without proof and torture them in Eastern Europe...

Edited January 15, 2006 by Battlewookiee

[Judge Hades]

I didn't say it was okay. That is just the reality of it. My point is if a US soldier was captured by terrorists I doubt the intorrogation would be as benign as the example you give. Even if there was torture involved the civilian terrorsts would more likely to torture the US soldier to death just for kicks while the US has a little more restraint when torturing someone.

 

There are no good guys in this. Just two oppsoing sides trying to push their ideology on another with force using whatever means works.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Judge Hades

[BattleCookiee]

There are no good guys in this.  Just two oppsoing sides trying to push their ideology on another with force using whatever means works.

 

So, according to you, there are 2 groups in Iraq

 

The Allied (US, British etc.)

The Terrorists (everybody in Iraq that doesn't belong to the Allied, in short Iraq population)

 

SUUUURE...

[Judge Hades]

In a hostile environment it is safest to presume guilt then prove innocent. Its neither right or wrong. It just is and until you find yourself in the same situation as these soldiers or these civilians it is not for you or I to judge them.

[Commissar]

Once there was a report of how the Americans acted in Iraq. They showed an American Force go into the house of some random Iraqi. Let's see how it went:

"Goddamn mother****er. Tell us where your ****ing terroristic ****ers are"

[Arabic for I don't understand]

"Answer my ****ing question, ****ing mother****er"

[Arabic for I don't understand]

*Americans rough him up a little and intimidate with their guns*

"Tell us where your ****ing terroristic buddies are, bitch!"

That's a direct quote, is it? Provide me with a link, if you will.

 

Actually, despite knowing it's not a direct quote, I don't even care. I've heard cops use the same language when raiding a meth lab in the Midwest.

 

Yeah for the American way of finding terrorists and interrogation. Ofcourse without camera's there would have been torture involved, the US' little favorite activity...

Once again, Abu Ghraib was discovered and investigated not by journalists, but by the US Army. News of violations of prisoner treatment policies there were released to the press by the US Army. Those directly involved have been prosecuted; those who allowed it to happen under their command have been punished in various ways. Remember that German guy who got picked up in Macedonia and taken to Afghanistan for six months? Explain to me again why we released him, knowing full well that he'd tell his story, instead of just shooting him in the back of the head fifty miles outside of Kabul, where he'd never be found?

 

And the US Vs. Them wasn't made by you when talking about Iraq. Even then it is quite "easy" to forget there are several other nationalities of armies in Iraq, like your big buddies the British. Why did you forget them? Because they don't do anything (false) or you wan't to boost your own morale about the US all by themselves holding Iraq from turning an even bigger mess?

That's simply not true. I was indeed speaking about Iraq, Afghanistan, and terrorists in general. And the British, the Poles, and anyone else who has decided to assist us in that particular fight is very much included in "us."

 

My question is, why are you on the insurgents' side? You are aware that they're not fighting for peace, love, and understanding, right? They're fighting to reestablish an incredibly harsh, oppressive regime, not democracy. Or are you simply an isolationist who doesn't care if Iraqis torture each other, or reenact laws that allow a woman's family to kill her if she's raped, or prevent her from driving a car, going to work, or even leaving the house without a male escort?

 

And the terrorist DO wan't only the Yankees. Recently there was an hostage in the Gaza by these terrorists, and when they found out that the teachers of that American school were Europeans and not Yankees, they gave them a good treatment and released them as soon as they could...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Explain the non-Americans who've been kidnapped and killed in Iraq, please.

[213374U]

Yeah for the American way of finding terrorists and interrogation. Ofcourse without camera's there would have been torture involved, the US' little favorite activity...

And curiously, I have yet to see a video that shows a prisoner being beheaded by US soldiers, or even evidence of illegal executions (I'm not sure, but have there been any executions at all?). On the other hand, there are quite a few of those nice homemade snuff videos by islamic groups going around. So, lay off the crack.

 

 

And the US Vs. Them wasn't made by you when talking about Iraq. Even then it is quite "easy" to forget there are several other nationalities of armies in Iraq, like your big buddies the British. Why did you forget them? Because they don't do anything (false) or you wan't to boost your own morale about the US all by themselves holding Iraq from turning an even bigger mess?

LOL

 

Honestly, you do realize that the "us" in "Us vs Them" is a pronoun, and not the acronym for "United States", don't you?

 

"R00fles!"

 

 

And the terrorist DO wan't only the Yankees. Recently there was an hostage in the Gaza by these terrorists, and when they found out that the teachers of that American school were Europeans and not Yankees, they gave them a good treatment and released them as soon as they could...

And on the other hand you have a multitude of cases that show that they really don't care where you are from, as long as you are western. You are making an argument based on a (possible?) exception that you can't even document properly.

 

You are a joke, man.

 

 

Efficiency depends on your own force.  If you are only a few people against a far superior force then you use what means are necessary.  If your forces are equal and stronger then it owuld be more efficient to rally the average citizen for your cause.

What means are necessary for what? War is not about killing. War is about winning. Often to win you need to kill, but it's only a means to an end. Slaughtering the enemy is not the goal in itself. Killing civilians usually does not place you any closer to winning by itself. In this particular case, it does quite the opposite, in fact.

 

And well, I don't think it's a very common phenomena that civilian unrest during wartime has been severe enough to force a change in power. It most certainly didn't happen in Germany during WWII, and they suffered the worst bombings in a war, ever. The idea that killing civilians en masse is a good way to rally them for your cause is just ludicrous.

 

But yeah, Hades. Everyone must die.

Edited January 15, 2006 by 213374U

[Chupacabra]

Numbers man for the win! :D

 

Also, why on earth do some people on this board insist on calling us "Yanks"? Not only is it derogatory, it also makes the poster look like a buffoon.

Edited January 15, 2006 by Chupacabra

[Azarkon]

So tell me not to adopt and us vs. them mentality.  Go on, tell me that the various Unpronounceable Martyrs Brigades and Unintelligible Armies running around Iraq are not a 'them.'  Explain to me how those attempting to harm American citizens do not qualify as a 'them.'  Oh, and hey - they don't discriminate, by the by.  It ain't just us Yanks.  I can tell you'd enjoy sitting down to tea and hummus with 'em, but you're a Westerner, man, so chances are you'd end up pissing yourself in one of those hostage videos like the rest.

 

Are we incapable of fighting terrorism, incapable of rendering justice, unless we categorize those we fight against as the alien Other, as "them?"

[BattleCookiee]

That's a direct quote, is it?  Provide me with a link, if you will.

 

Actually, despite knowing it's not a direct quote, I don't even care.  I've heard cops use the same language when raiding a meth lab in the Midwest.

 

A link from a television documentary... then also in Dutch (since it was from Belgian)... Even if there was a link to it, you wouldn't understand the things besides "Mother****er" that the soldiers said...

 

Sure, cops could do that. But would they do that with random citizens? Would they start molesting if the person wouldn't understand them (doesn't speak/understand English)?

 

And later pushing out the camera crew because they wanted to do some stuff that wouldn't look all that good taped and such?

 

Once again, Abu Ghraib was discovered and investigated not by journalists, but by the US Army.  News of violations of prisoner treatment policies there were released to the press by the US Army.  Those directly involved have been prosecuted; those who allowed it to happen under their command have been punished in various ways.  Remember that German guy who got picked up in Macedonia and taken to Afghanistan for six months?  Explain to me again why we released him, knowing full well that he'd tell his story, instead of just shooting him in the back of the head fifty miles outside of Kabul, where he'd never be found?

 

Who talks about Abu Ghraib alone? CIA camps, Guatamala Bay, several other Iraqi prisons, interrogations in the "suspects" own houses...

 

That's simply not true.  I was indeed speaking about Iraq, Afghanistan, and terrorists in general.  And the British, the Poles, and anyone else who has decided to assist us in that particular fight is very much included in "us."

 

LOL

 

Honestly, you do realize that the "us" in "Us vs Them" is a pronoun, and not the acronym for "United States", don't you?

 

"R00fles!"

 

Whoops. Saw the S as a capital letter when reading it for the first time :">

 

My question is, why are you on the insurgents' side?  You are aware that they're not fighting for peace, love, and understanding, right?  They're fighting to reestablish an incredibly harsh, oppressive regime, not democracy.  Or are you simply an isolationist who doesn't care if Iraqis torture each other, or reenact laws that allow a woman's family to kill her if she's raped, or prevent her from driving a car, going to work, or even leaving the house without a male escort?

 

I am on the insurgent's side as you are on Bush side...

Yes. I am aware they don't do that. But UNLIKE the VS they don't claim to do so. But look who does claim such a statement... and fails miserably?

No, I don't think anarchy would be a good thing, but exchanging one ruthless dictatorship by another covered in a very faint democratic jacket doesn't help anybody...

And as the US elections (fraude, entire would against Bush, 51% of the Americans for, even if it could (and did) cause wars on other parts of the world, problems actually counting the votes, etc.) have shown, maybe Democracy isn't Da Bomb for the entire world...

 

Explain the non-Americans who've been kidnapped and killed in Iraq, please.

 

Working for American companies, not known they were Europeans, foolish attempts to free themselves resulting in death etc. There can be many reasons, but they mainly go for the Americans...

 

And curiously, I have yet to see a video that shows a prisoner being beheaded by US soldiers, or even evidence of illegal executions (I'm not sure, but have there been any executions at all?). On the other hand, there are quite a few of those nice homemade snuff videos by islamic groups going around. So, lay off the crack.

 

Don't confuse torture and execution. And if the Americans execute they seem to do it more with their rifle, but feel free to ignore it is both execution.

Also, on alot of occassions torture can be FAR worse than any execution. You rather die fast and painless or spend the last 3 months of your life in miserable pain?

So it is a rather odd comparisson to make when talking about treatment of people...

 

And on the other hand you have a multitude of cases that shows that they really don't care where you are from, as long as you are western. You are making an argument based on a (possible?) exception that you can't even document properly.

 

Why don't you post some of them then? If you say I can't even give properly documented evidence, why should you get away without properly documented evidence? Kind of hypocrite, not?

 

You are a joke, man.

 

Ha, atleast I discuss instead of throwing out odd comparisons or flaming how stupid I am for not not giving stuff that you cannot even provide yourself for your own arguments....

[mkreku]

You will pardon me if I didn't search the exact quote.

Yeah, well, that pretty much sums up your discussion technique, because to most people with a proper netiquette that's pretty important. You keep concentrating on the trolling and don't give a rat's butt if you construct the posts you oppose yourself. Kind of defeats the purpose of arguing, but hey, if it makes you happy.

 

There's a reason why the words legitimate and target shouldn't be used together concerning human beings. A good read to get a grasp of the way language can be used to market a political agenda: Manufacturing Consent.

[BattleCookiee]

Explain to me how those attempting to harm American citizens do not qualify as a 'them.'

 

Rereading this again... I just found the hypocrisy in these said words

 

Oh noes, they cannot attack your citizens, but they should accept without resistance that you kill other nation's citizens...

 

Way to go.

[213374U]

Don't confuse torture and execution.

Hahaha. So, now torture is worse than execution? Are you sure the Earth isn't flat?

 

And if the Americans execute they seem to do it more with their rifle, but feel free to ignore it is both execution.

Nope. Shooting back at people that is shooting at or might shoot at you is not execution. Execution has very distinct implications, which have nothing to do with warfare.

 

 

Also, on alot of occassions torture can be FAR worse than any execution. You rather die fast and painless or spend the last 3 months of your life in miserable pain?

So it is a rather odd comparisson to make when talking about treatment of people...

None of the tortures carried out in Abu Ghraib are worse than being beheaded, period. I wouldn't really know, as I have never been beheaded, but from what I have seen, feeling how some guy holds your head while he cuts it off with a knife is not exactly "painless".

 

 

Why don't you post some of them then? If you say I can't even give properly documented evidence, why should you get away without properly documented evidence? Kind of hypocrite, not?

Not really. After all, it's you who's trying to make a point from an exception. Would you really require me to post evidence to prove the Earth isn't flat?

 

But hey, it's not really that difficult. I found these just from Googling "hostage executed Iraq". There are a few videos too, but I can't post them as it would be a violation of the guidelines.

 

Italy confirms hostage executed.

2 Turkish hostages found dead, reports Al Jazeera.

British woman executed.

Bulgarian hostage executed in Iraq.

South Korean hostage executed.

 

There were quite a few more, feel free to look them up yourself.

 

 

Ha, atleast I discuss instead of throwing out odd comparisons or flaming how stupid I am for not not giving stuff that you cannot even provide yourself for your own arguments....

Nah, you don't discuss. You just spread your hateful anti-US propaganda, and keep going even when people toss facts in your face. Don't cry if you get flamed for living in a parallel reality.

 

Yes buddy, you are a joke. The sad thing is you are not funny at all.

 

 

Yeah, well, that pretty much sums up your discussion technique, because to most people with a proper netiquette that's pretty important. You keep concentrating on the trolling and don't give a rat's butt if you construct the posts you oppose yourself. Kind of defeats the purpose of arguing, but hey, if it makes you happy.

Hilarious, even more when considering that removing the inexact quote doesn't substract a gram of validity from my post.

When your feeble arguments get destroyed, you fall back to "netiquette". Whatever man. You're just so full of it.

 

 

There's a reason why the words legitimate and target shouldn't be used together concerning human beings.

There's a reason? Really? And what is it? Go right ahead and enlighten me. Or is this another of your games to "sort out people" that aren't psychic?

 

This just keeps getting better.

Edited January 15, 2006 by 213374U

[mkreku]

Hilarious, even more when considering that removing the inexact quote doesn't substract a gram of validity from my post.

When your feeble arguments get destroyed, you fall back to "netiquette". Whatever man. You're just so full of it.

 

There's a reason? Really? And what is it? Go right ahead and enlighten me. Or is this another of your games to "sort out people" that aren't psychic?

 

This just keeps getting better.

 

Not a single line adressing the issue we're discussing. Brilliant! Troll away!

 

Or to quote you:

 

0 substance in your "post", as per usual. Try again.

 

 

Enough of this BS. Mudslinging is only fun if the opposition makes an effort.

[213374U]

Not a single line adressing the issue we're discussing. Brilliant! Troll away!

Well, there was nothing relevant to the topic at hand in this post:

You will pardon me if I didn't search the exact quote.

Yeah, well, that pretty much sums up your discussion technique, because to most people with a proper netiquette that's pretty important. You keep concentrating on the trolling and don't give a rat's butt if you construct the posts you oppose yourself. Kind of defeats the purpose of arguing, but hey, if it makes you happy.

 

There's a reason why the words legitimate and target shouldn't be used together concerning human beings. A good read to get a grasp of the way language can be used to market a political agenda: Manufacturing Consent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Save for some link to a book I'm not going to buy. There was nothing I could say of relevance to the topic in reply to your post, because you have gone off a tangent quite some time ago.

 

What a sad attempt at bailing out.

 

[thepixiesrock]

Zing!

[BattleCookiee]

Hahaha. So, now torture is worse than execution? Are you sure the Earth isn't flat?

 

Probably. I would rather die right away then live 3 months with the pain where I could die of right away

 

Nope. Shooting back at people that is shooting at or might shoot at you is not execution. Execution has very distinct implications, which have nothing to do with warfare.

 

Shooting people who MIGHT shoot at you... I couldn't have worded US-murder any better...

And the US also executes, think the sons of Mr. Saddamm, and I don't think what you would call a 2000 lb bomb on somebodies home...

 

None of the tortures carried out in Abu Ghraib are worse than being beheaded, period. I wouldn't really know, as I have never been beheaded, but from what I have seen, feeling how some guy holds your head while he cuts it off with a knife is not exactly "painless".

 

Better than that exact same pain for several months...

 

Not really. After all, it's you who's trying to make a point from an exception. Would you really require me to post evidence to prove the Earth isn't flat?

 

But hey, it's not really that difficult. I found these just from Googling "hostage executed Iraq". There are a few videos too, but I can't post them as it would be a violation of the guidelines.

 

About the earth thing. Indeed you should. When it was found out not everybody believed it right away because some scientist said so, he gave the proof!

 

And I didn't denied that it happened. Just said that if you complain about people because they don't support their claims with evidence you should backup your own claim with that evidence...

 

Nah, you don't discuss. You just spread your hateful anti-US propaganda, and keep going even when people toss facts in your face. Don't cry if you get flamed for living in a parallel reality.

 

If you wan't me to stop, give me some reasons. So far I haven't seen none that would even make me THINK about changing my opinion...

And the "facts in your face" do not make any claims that the US is "doing a damn well job", it just points toward some minor errors in my ways. Yeah, I really go start supporting the US if you don't post (supported!) Pro-US, but instead negative things about the Iraqi or European

 

Yes buddy, you are a joke. The sad thing is you are not funny at all.

 

Not even trying to be. This is a political discussion. If you wan't to be entertained visit some Joke Thread...

[Commissar]

Explain to me how those attempting to harm American citizens do not qualify as a 'them.'

 

Rereading this again... I just found the hypocrisy in these said words

 

Oh noes, they cannot attack your citizens, but they should accept without resistance that you kill other nation's citizens...

 

Way to go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're going to have to explain to me who we were supposedly killing prior to September 11th, 2001.

 

If you're talking about Iraq, I'm not entirely sure what you want me to say. They're more than welcome to resist, if they so choose, knowing full well that resistance greatly endangers the civilian populace in which they live. But you know what? They don't seem to care too much, do they? Using civilian screens, placing roadside bombs in the middle of villages, engaging US and Iraqi national security forces in crowded settings...

[Judge Hades]

You guys are just silly.