The hunt continues....

[Hildegard]

Pakistan Calls Osama Bin Laden Isolated, Ineffective

 

 

By Benjamin Sand

Islamabad

26 September 2005

 

 

Senior Pakistani officials claim to have effectively destroyed al-Qaida's communications network in Pakistan, and say terrorist leader Osama Bin Laden is almost completely isolated and out of touch.

 

Pakistani officials claim Osama bin Laden's only contact with his supporters is now limited to handwritten messages delivered by trusted couriers.

 

 

Pakistan's military spokesman, Major General Shaukat Sultan, says it takes the terrorist leader more than two months to exchange information with his al-Qaida associates. "So that clearly indicates that Osama, at this moment, is isolated," he said. "He is no longer effective as an operational commander or an al-Qaida commander."

 

The general, who provided no details of how the Pakistani government came by this information, says bin Laden's electronic communications network, which included satellite phones, computers and radios, has been virtually wiped out.

 

Pakistani officials believe the man is now protected by only a handful of his most loyal supporters and does not travel with large groups to avoid detection. He is thought to be hiding out in the rugged border region dividing Pakistan and Afghanistan, although nobody has claimed to have certain information about his whereabouts.

 

Pakistan has deployed more than 80,000 troops to the region to hunt for him and wipe out extremist base camps.

 

Lieutenant General Safdar Hussein is in charge of the military's operations in Pakistan's northern tribal areas. "Let me say that our track record on fighting terrorism is unprecedented," he said. "We have apprehended over 700 foreign terrorists."

 

Since the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States, Pakistan has become a key ally in the U.S.-led war against terrorism. In those four years, Pakistan has helped capture several of al-Qaida's top officials, including Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who allegedly helped plan the September 11th attacks.

 

Last year Pakistan arrested Muhammad Naeem Noor Khan, who provided critical information about al-Qaida's network around the world. Leads from that case also helped officials capture Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani, wanted for his role in the 1998 attacks on U.S. embassies in East Africa.

 

In exchange, Washington has provided Islamabad with billions of dollars in military and development assistance. But some critics accuse Pakistan of backing off its commitment to fight terrorism.

 

Afghanistan's president, Hamid Karzai claims Taleban insurgents are receiving training in Pakistan, and U.S. officials have said more could still be done to locate and capture Osama bin Laden. He may have lost operational control of al-Qaida, but officials warn that bin Laden remains a powerful symbol for Islamic militants around the world.

 

What's your thought on this, do you think this info on Osama is true or only propaganda to keep the hunt 'alive' before the eyes of the international public?

Edited January 14, 2006 by Hildegard

[Calax]

Ultimatly I think Osama gets a lot more press then he should. He's a gereatric with a dialasys machine who's stuck in a cave. He shouldn't be that much of a problem

 

Bush is trying to blow him out of porpotion to keep the eyes off everything else he does.

[Hildegard]

Ultimatly I think Osama gets a lot more press then he should.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Disagree, because in nowdays we don't seem to get pretty much anything on his status and really nothing that counts as valid information.

 

He's a gereatric with a dialasys machine who's stuck in a cave.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

He shouldn't be that much of a problem

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Disagree, he is much of a problem because he's the man who's done such damage to the US, both in casulties, financially and most importantly - psycologicly. And even after 4 years the most powerfull force in the world can't seem to catch the cappo of the organization which completly changed the global scene - I call that a problem.

 

Bush is trying to blow him out of porpotion to keep the eyes off everything else he does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There's some truth in that.

[Commissar]

Well, in related news, we also got al-Qaeda's number 2 man in Iraq recently.

 

For the eighteenth time.

 

Seriously. How often can we claim to have killed or captured al-Qaeda's number 2 man in Iraq? Is the al-Qaeda rank structure something we're unfamiliar with, where OBL is 1, and everyone else is 2? I don't get it.

[taks]

we've only claimed to have killed the number 2 man in iraq once that i've heard. however, i'm curious why it is these guys are not allowed to replace positions after they've been vacated due to death?

 

taks

[taks]

i mean, sheesh, just by math alone when #2 goes down, #3 is kinda promoted to #2 by default. simple concept, really.

 

taks

[Commissar]

we've only claimed to have killed the number 2 man in iraq once that i've heard.  however, i'm curious why it is these guys are not allowed to replace positions after they've been vacated due to death?

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, it's a weekly thing, just about.

[taks]

No, it's a weekly thing, just about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a) show me

b) if so, so what. there's a limit on when you can replace someone?

 

for someone that "had that class," you sure like anecdote without fact or reason.

 

taks

[Commissar]

No, it's a weekly thing, just about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a) show me

b) if so, so what. there's a limit on when you can replace someone?

 

for someone that "had that class," you sure like anecdote without fact or reason.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A) No.

B) Yes.

 

Yeah, I know.

 

Commissar

[taks]

i see...

 

taks

[Lucius]

Hamas seems to grow in members every time one of their leaders get wacked by Israel. I think it'll prove to be quite a tricky task to kill your way through Islamic fundamentalism, however vile it may be.

[Arkan]

 

Bush is trying to blow him out of porpotion to keep the eyes off everything else he does.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

George Bush doesn't care about black people Osama bin Laden

[Krookie]

Personally when we catch him, I say we take him to New York City, and have every single kid that lost a parent take a crowbar to his knee. Then move onto the Pentagon. Then the field. After his knees are broken beyond belief, we put him in a very tall building, say...30 storys? And blow it up. Of course, we're humane people so he wouldn't die in the explosion, no...we'll make him run down all those stairs.

 

 

Repeat as desired.

 

 

 

 

But that's just me. Oh, and crushing him under 6 tons of steel wouldn't be that bad either...

Edited September 28, 2005 by kotorkyle

[taks]

of course, then we'd be no (edit: replace worse with better, duh) than him and the rest of his fundamentalists.

 

taks

Edited September 28, 2005 by taks

[Laozi]

Personally when we catch him, I say we take him to New York City, and have every single kid that lost a parent take a crowbar to his knee. Then move onto the Pentagon. Then the field. After his knees are broken beyond belief, we put him in a very tall building, say...30 storys? And blow it up. Of course, we're humane people so he wouldn't die in the explosion, no...we'll make him run down all those stairs.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

How about just George Bush Sr., John Major, George W. Bush, and James Baker give him a parade?

[Calax]

Nah... the amount of press and treatment you recieve is proportional to the enormity of your crime. They'll put him in a room with scantily clad female guards and his machine.

 

Anyway... How hard can it be to actually catch an abnormally tall arab with a rather large suit case attached to his body by tubes with a red liquid running through them?

[Hildegard]

Is the al-Qaeda rank structure something we're unfamiliar with, where OBL is 1, and everyone else is 2?  I don't get it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe this will help you:

 

 

# Shura/Advisory Council - Usama bin Laden's inner circle; they direct the overall strategy of the organization.

# Sharia/Political Committee - Responsible for issuing fatwas.

# Military Committee - Resposible for conceiving and planning operations, as well as managing training camps.

# Finance Committee - Responsible for fund-raising, and the concealment of assets.

# Foreign Purchases Committee - Responsible for the acquisition of foreign arm and supplies.

# Security Committee - Physical protection, intelligence, and counter-intelligence.

# Information Committee - In charge of propaganda.

 

 

Al-Qaeda Key Personalities

 

Usama Bin Laden

Saudi (Leader) - at large

 

Ayman Zawahiri

Egyptian (Deputy) - at large

 

Saif al Adel

(aka Saif Adel Makkawi), Egyptian (Security Chief) - at large

 

Muhammed Atef

Egyptian (Operations Chief)

- killed

 

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

Pakistani/Kuwaiti (Operations Planner) - captured

 

Abu Faraj al-Libbi

Libyan (Operational planner, some claim he was 3rd in command) - captured

 

Mafouz Ould Walid

Mauritanian (Counselor) - unknown, presumed killed

 

Abd Rahim Nashiri

Saudi (Persian Gulf Operational Coordinator) - captured

 

Abu Musab Zarqawi

(aka Ahmad Fadeel Khalayleh) Jordanian (Operational Planner) - at large

 

Zayn Abidin Muhammed Hussein

(aka Abu Zubaida) Palestinian (Operational Planner) - captured

 

Tawfiq Attash

(aka Khallad) (Pakistan Coordinator) - at large

 

Yazid Sufaat

Malaysian (Biological weapons production) - captured

 

Fazul Abdullah Mohammed

Comoros (Africa field commander) - at large

 

Riduan Isamuddin

(aka Hambali) Indonesian (Southeast Asia Coordinator) - captured

 

Sheik Said Al-Masri

(Financial Aide) - at large

 

Karim Mejjati

Moroccan (Operation Planner) - killed

 

Zaid Khayr

(Operational Commander) - at large

 

Saad bin Laden

Saudi (son of Usama bin Laden) - at large

 

Abu Ali Harithi

(aka Abu Ali) Yemeni, (USS Cole attack planner) - killed

 

Abdullah Ahmed Abdullah

Egyptian (Intelligence Chief) - at large

 

Ramzi Binalshibh

Yemeni (9/11 Coordinator in Hamburg) - captured

 

Abu Zubair Haili

Saudi (Operational Planner, Recruiter) - captured

 

Midhat Mursi

(aka Abu Khabab), Egyptian (Chemical Weaponeer) - unknown

 

Ibn Shaykh Libi

(Trainer

[Nur Ab Sal]

Personally when we catch him, I say we take him to New York City, and have every single kid that lost a parent take a crowbar to his knee. Then move onto the Pentagon. Then the field. After his knees are broken beyond belief, we put him in a very tall building, say...30 storys? And blow it up. Of course, we're humane people so he wouldn't die in the explosion, no...we'll make him run down all those stairs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This brilliant thing should be done to plenty of people:

 

- those CIA operatives who trained Osama and equipped him with weapons in 1980s to fight Russians in Afghanistan

- those american politicians and their lackeys who planned and executed invasions on foreign countries and killed thousands in the process (Panama, Grenada, Iraq, Wietnam etc) therefore produced many more orphans, that Al-Quaida could have ever produced

Edited September 28, 2005 by Nur Ab Sal

[Authority]

For you that don't have anything valid to say related to the topic, please shut the frell up and go spam elsewhere. Thank you in advance

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

I took the opportinity to practice som casual pruning. And need I remind you that anyone who misbehaves in this thread will be slapped repeatedly with a cold, moist towel.

[taks]

P.S. For you that don't have anything valid to say related to the topic, please sh*t the fu*k up and go spam elsewhere. Thank you in advance

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

couldn't have said it better myself. amazing what a few facts mean. good post hildegard.

 

taks

[Walsingham]

The fact that bin Laden has been isolated to the extent shown in the article merely underlines the fact that we have done everything we need to do to him for the time being. he exists solely as an inspirational figure. Eliminating or imprisoning him would not make him stop in this function. Better to concentrate on the national franchise holders.

 

 

+10 points for Hildegarde, btw.

 

And, Nur, I'm not going into the whole "There is a difference between the actions of a state and an individual" business again. Failing to recognise the distinction seems rather childish. And your first point seems especially odd, given you have the hots for the guy.

[Commissar]

P.S. For you that don't have anything valid to say related to the topic, please sh*t the fu*k up and go spam elsewhere. Thank you in advance

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

couldn't have said it better myself. amazing what a few facts mean. good post hildegard.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They're facts only to the extent that they're correct. They might not be, for all we know. Our intelligence hasn't been batting a thousand in the GWOT, as I'm sure you're aware.

 

And let's not forget that our own military leadership has assessed the strength of the insurgency circa two months ago, if memory serves, as being equal to the strength of the insurgency when it all started going down. This means one of two things; either al-Qaeda is heavily involved in Iraq, as plenty of people claim, since the entire point was to 'fight them there so we don't have to here,' and therefore all of these captures and kills don't mean squat on an actual operational basis, or else aQ isn't heavily involved in Iraq, which defeats the whole 'fight them there so we don't have to here' premise.

 

I agree with the argument that OBL isn't as involved in operations as everyone thinks, and consequently, his capture or his (potential) isolation will likely not have a significant impact on day-to-day aQ housework. I get the impression that it's grown to the point where it doesn't really need a mastermind anymore; there are plenty of individual masterminds running their own crap.

[taks]

They're facts only to the extent that they're correct.  They might not be, for all we know.  Our intelligence hasn't been batting a thousand in the GWOT, as I'm sure you're aware.

i think that goes without saying for just about anything. i agree we seriously need to improve our intelligence, which includes an increase in field operatives. granted, at this stage it is hard for them to get "inside," but their ranks are so decimated that any increase will be beneficial. relying solely on SIGINT technology does no good when AQ is using human courriers.

 

And let's not forget that our own military leadership has assessed the strength of the insurgency circa two months ago, if memory serves, as being equal to the strength of the insurgency when it all started going down.  This means one of two things; either al-Qaeda is heavily involved in Iraq, as plenty of people claim, since the entire point was to 'fight them there so we don't have to here,' and therefore all of these captures and kills don't mean squat on an actual operational basis, or else aQ isn't heavily involved in Iraq, which defeats the whole 'fight them there so we don't have to here' premise.

i think this is a bit of a false delimma coupled with a straw man. it's not necessarily either or (false delimma/dichotomy, aka black and white fallacy). there may be a bit of both and there's a lot of evidence that a good portion of the insurgents are just POd fundamentalists that keep surging in from places like syria. it could also be new recruits (obviously a touch on the less intelligent side of average) that keep getting replaced by new recruits.

 

the straw-man is saying that chasing AQ is the only reason we went in or why we're still there. to the former, there are many reasons, which is another debate. to the latter, whether or not the insurgency is AQ is irrelevant, as we need to quash it. japan took 7 years. man i hope iraq doesn't...

 

I agree with the argument that OBL isn't as involved in operations as everyone thinks, and consequently, his capture or his (potential) isolation will likely not have a significant impact on day-to-day aQ housework.  I get the impression that it's grown to the point where it doesn't really need a mastermind anymore; there are plenty of individual masterminds running their own crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is probably true. he's too dug in to have any real day to day impact. however, his capture will be very symbolic, which has merit by itself.

 

taks

Edited September 28, 2005 by taks

[Commissar]

i think that goes without saying for just about anything.  i agree we seriously need to improve our intelligence, which includes an increase in field operatives.  granted, at this stage it is hard for them to get "inside," but their ranks are so decimated that any increase will be beneficial.  relying solely on SIGINT technology does no good when AQ is using human courriers.

I certainly don't envy our intelligence guys at the moment. What they've got to do is essentially like trying to steal home after you've announced to the catcher that you'll be coming. I only argue that we just don't have enough solid intelligence on al Qaeda to know if all of our work - and there have been some amazing successes - has had any effect whatsoever on the organization or its affiliates. I take a pessimistic view simply because I disagree with many aspects of our strategy, and am pretty sure the best possible outcome is containment, not victory.

 

i think this is a bit of a false delimma coupled with a straw man.  it's not necessarily either or (false delimma/dichotomy, aka black and white fallacy).  there may be a bit of both and there's a lot of evidence that a good portion of the insurgents are just POd fundamentalists that keep surging in from places like syria.  it could also be new recruits (obviously a touch on the less intelligent side of average) that keep getting replaced by new recruits.

 

the straw-man is saying that chasing AQ is the only reason we went in or why we're still there.  to the former, there are many reasons, which is another debate.  to the latter, whether or not the insurgency is AQ is irrelevant, as we need to quash it.  japan took 7 years.  man i hope iraq doesn't...

I'll grant you that we don't know enough about who's doing what within the overall insurgency to assign chief responsibility, but my gut feeling - which has absolutely no sort of factual bearing, mind you - is that aQ is involved, and that its operational capacity isn't being truly hampered by our successes. I think the general aQ movement is no longer solely defined by aQ and its affiliates, but by like-minded individuals who are fully capable of taking over or of setting up their own shops if one of the larger players goes down. There are certainly plenty of dumb fanatics ready to go blow themselves up after the previous set of dumb fanatics blow themselves up, but I'd also wager there are a couple of intelligent fanatics ready to starting running finance or security or operations or acquisitions when the number one guys get bagged.

 

As to your second point, I'd certainly never argue that fighting aQ in a convenient, non-American battleground was the prime mover for the invasion, but it is still a component. Whether or not it's actually working is something only time will tell. I was talking to a buddy of mine the other day out in Hawaii about this very subject, and he asserted that the lack of attacks within the US proves that it is in fact working. I reserve the right to wait at least a decade before passing judgment, since that seems to be about their usual timetable.

 

this is probably true.  he's too dug in to have any real day to day impact.  however, his capture will be very symbolic, which has merit by itself.

 

taks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Certainly. I can't wait until we get him, either. I'm a little torn, though, between complaining about how the focus seems to have shifted off of him and being patient, since there are doubtlessly guys with funny green hats or who favor wearing short shorts out hunting, and we just don't get to hear about it.

[Laozi]

The only thing that's important if they catch Bin Laden is that his trial is public