Did i just buy a good RPG?

[Musopticon?]

Shut up. Don't group me with munckin-kiddies.

 

I remember spending two hours talking with Dustmen in the Mortuary. TWO HOURS! Does that sound like craving for battles to you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Temper.. temper.. I didn't specifically ever mention you. I do ,however, imagine that there are quite a few people that feel that Torment's combat was bad because there just wasn't "enough" fighting in their eyes. Not so much that the "quality" was bad per se... Just the quantity.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, please do mind next time and don't generalize.

[roshan]

Fighting giant skeletoins in the crypt oiuitside the moirtuiary was diffuicuilt if that was oinei oifi the first quiests yoiui toioik. The loiwest floioir in the tenement oifi thuigs was alsoii quiiite difficuilt. There were alsoi soimie toiuigh encoiiuinters with ghoiuils in the sewers. All in all it was noit as easy as soime peoiiple like toi claim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

People complaing about how "easy" Torment's combat was is just an excuse to hide what they really mean... I believe they were just annoyed that you weren't thrust into some battle or another every minute or so like the BGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That coiuild be it. I have anoither explanatioin thoiuigh:

 

Moiiist peoiple whoi didnt like toiirments coiimbat simply cannoit adjuist toi the fact that they are noit playing an elf wearing chainmail and duial wielding loing swoirds. They then make uip all soirts oif fauilty excuises blaming the coiimibat system oif planescape toirment when in fact the real proiblem is their lack oif ability toii roileplay noin standard fantasy characters in coimibat situiatioinis.

[Lancer]

People complaining about how "easy" Torment combat was seem to forget how difficult it was to defeat the demon in Curst. Trias's prision with all the gehreleths and mercykillers wasn't exactly a cakewalk either.  I don't recall Nordom's maze to be exactly "easy" either.

 

In fact, the demon in Curst was harder than any of BG2's dragons.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fighting giant skeletoins in the crypt oiuitside the moirtuiary was diffuicuilt if that was oinei oifi the first quiests yoiui toioik. The loiwest floioir in the tenement oifi thuigs was alsoii quiiite difficuilt. There were alsoi soimie toiuigh encoiiuinters with ghoiuils in the sewers. All in all it was noit as easy as soime peoiiple like toi claim.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There were a lot of satisfying encounters in Torment (despite what the naysayers say) it is just that some people felt you didn't get "enough" of them. The problem is that every person has their own built-in meter of how much combat is "enough" in a game.

 

It might also have to do with the lack of weapon/armor assortment in Torment as compared to the BG games. People like to try out a lot of different weapons and armor and Torment just wasn't as rich in this as the BGs.

 

 

I just don't see any real justification for the "Torment combat is easy" excuse that people bring up. It just doesn't hold any weight.

[Lancer]

Well, please do mind next time and don't generalize.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Next time don't assume that people are talking about you when they are not.

[alanschu]

I'm considering the idea of somehow allowing you to play through my module without ever having to get into a direct conflict.

[Lancer]

I'm considering the idea of somehow allowing you to play through my module without ever having to get into a direct conflict.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hmm.. I'd love to be a thief in that one.

[alanschu]

It's still a long ways away though, so don't get too hyped for it (yet ).

 

My friend and I are planning on releasing it for NWN2. Currently in preproduction and all that jazz.

[Lancer]

Nothing really can protect you from the flayer's intelligence draining powersz. Combine that with their usual pet the umber hulk and that's a deadly combination unless you planned accoridngly hence strategy.

 

Umm.. This is just not true. "Chaos" spell anybody?

[Lancer]

But in response to the original poster (and true purpose) of this thread.. Yes, you purchased the best one possible up to the current day.

[Meshugger]

There's alot of talk about PST's combat here, but no matter, combat has never been one of the reasons on why i like a RPG (except maybe for Halo).

[Volourn]

"OTOH, I can play Torment today and derive the same enjoyment I did then."

 

OTOH, I find no need to play Torment even more than once - believe me I tried - because as good as the story is; one play through and you get the story. And,s ince Torment is a game where everything but the story sucks there's no need to replay it.

 

And, oh, there was lots of combat in PST. only a blind perosn would miss it. And, a good protion of it is forced unless you avoid the area altogetehr or run like a coward.

 

Heck, just running around Sigil is liable to have you attacked by a random peon thug. Not to mention Curst, the slums, Undersigil, Fortress of Regrets, and the list goes on. PST is full of combat hevay and combat focused areas just like the BG series.

 

Period.

[Lancer]

..yeah and just like diablo right?I am sorry you feel that way. *shrugs*

Heck, just running around Sigil is liable to have you attacked by a random peon thug. Not to mention Curst, the slums, Undersigil, Fortress of Regrets, and the list goes on. PST is full of combat hevay and combat focused areas just like the BG series.

 

Although I don't deny that there was a suffice amount of combat in PS:T, saying that it was as much as a focus "just like in the BG series" is a far stretch to say the least.

 

There was a good amount of combat in Torment, although it was nowhere near as combat-focused as the BGs. Period.

 

Maybe you just like more combat in your games which is the true source of your ire? Perhaps this is why Torment just didn't suit your tastes regarding combat?

 

But claiming that Torment is as combat-focused as the BGs is a 'clear as day' erroneous statement.

 

Here is another one:

 

And,s ince Torment is a game where everything but the story sucks there's no need to replay it.

 

You already forgot about Torment's awesome NPC dialogue system? It is clearly the best in any RPG then or now. Certainly better than BG2's.

 

The music sucked too? This is a first.

 

What about the superior writing?

[Lancer]

There's alot of talk about PST's combat here, but no matter, combat has never been one of the reasons on why i like a RPG (except maybe for Halo).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When you finish the game let us know your thoughts on it.

[Volourn]

Whine all you want, the evidenc eis in. PST has lots of combat - you even admitted it. I gave exmaples of more thana few PST areas that ahve tons of combat. Bottom line is PST is as combat focused as most of the 'new age RPGs' are. Period. This is undisputable by anyone who has played the game, and is honest about it. It's in the item selection, spell election, character selection, in the story, everything.

 

And, your lame 'it must be you' speech is just that - lame. i ddin't make PST have so much combat. I did not create it, afterall. I have NEVER played any RPG that didn't have a lot of focus on combat, and PST is NO exception.

 

Period.

 

edit: Torment's dialogue system isn't anything special. And, it isn't the best. That would be FO, NWN, JE, Arcanum, and KOTOR. And, maybe Ultima series if I can even remember..

 

And, anything good about PST's dialogue had to do with the story.

 

And, PST's writing isn't superior to anything that matters. I am watching an amnesia story right now that has more heart, more soul, more oompth, and superior writing than anything in PST's amnesia story.

 

Game over.

[Lancer]

Whine all you want, the evidenc eis in. PST has lots of combat - you even admitted it.

 

There is a difference between HAVING combat and FOCUSING on combat. I can't help you with the distinction.

 

I gave exmaples of more thana few PST areas that ahve tons of combat.

 

And so did I. I never said Torment had a dearth of combat.. In fact if you had paid attention to my posts, I had actually argued the contrary!

 

Bottom line is PST is as combat focused as most of the 'new age RPGs' are. Period.

 

You keep saying this and I will just continue smiling back at you.. "Yeah, if you say so.." "

 

This is undisputable by anyone who has played the game, and is honest about it. It's in the item selection, spell election, character selection, in the story, everything.

 

It is indisputable that combat was much more of a focus in the BG series than in Torment. Continuing to say otherwise is just searching for ways to belittle this awesome game. Keep searching. :D

[Lancer]

edit: Torment's dialogue system isn't anything special. And, it isn't the best. That would be FO, NWN, JE, Arcanum, and KOTOR. And, maybe Ultima series if I can even remember..

 

If you think that FO had a better NPC dialogue system than Torment. I have nothing else to say to you

 

The closest to it would probably be Arcanum's.

[Volourn]

Good game. And,d on't forget it. And, saying it's combat is weak shouldn't be so hurtful for PST fanboys to read if PST didn't focus on combat as much as they claim, right?

 

In the end, the fact that PST is a good RPG inspite of the poor combat is a benefit for it. Imagine PST with actual fun combat, and wowsers. I might even let it into my top 10!!!!

 

Weell, along with fixing 3 of the worse, and unimaginative npcs of all time that is!!

 

 

"If you think that FO had a better dialogue system than Torment. I have nothing else to say to you"

 

PST doesn't even a dialogue focused skill. heck, it has nothing but combat skills which is why it and all the IE games - svae IWD2 - all are lacking in the dialogue system. They'r egood with what they have - espicially PST in that regard - but they don't come close to the above games. Not even close.

 

FO has dialogue skills.

 

It has abilty scores it sues.

 

It has non weapons kills it uses in dialogue.

 

In conclusion: FO, NWN, JE, ARC, KOTOR (and 2), and BL all CRUSH PST in dialogue systems.

 

P.S. We're replying way too quick here. LOL :D

[Lancer]

Good game. And,d on't forget it. And, saying it's combat is weak shouldn't be so hurtful for PST fanboys to read if PST didn't focus on combat as much as they claim, right?

 

It is not hurtful to me in the least. I don't really care if you or the next guy enjoyed Torment or not. But when say something that I feel is an erroneous (unfair) representation of Torment (especially for Meshugger who just got the game) I will be among the first to jump in and correct it.

 

 

In the end, the fact that PST is a good RPG inspite of the poor combat is a benefit for it. Imagine PST with actual fun combat, and wowsers. I might even let it into my top 10!!!!

 

What one considers "poor combat" differs from person to person. I for one didn't think the combat was poor at all. And never understood the folks that do.

 

 

edit: We *are* replying too quickly.. I will probably need to go and get that sleeping bag.

[Lancer]

FO has dialogue skills.

 

It has abilty scores it sues.

 

It has non weapons kills it uses in dialogue.

 

In conclusion: FO, NWN, JE, ARC, KOTOR (and 2), and BL all CRUSH PST in dialogue systems.

 

P.S. We're replying way too quick here. LOL :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I said "dialogue" system. Not skill system. TNO has much more say in determining what happens to Dak'kon, Annah, or Morte than the Vault Dweller does in dictating Ian's or Marcus's actions for instance. Torment's characters had *SOUL* and *DEPTH* that I would argue is the best I have ever seen.

 

Aside from being combat buddies, there wasn't really that much depth to FO's characters in many respects. But this was ok, because the emphasis on FO (as opposed to Torment) was on influencing the gameworld rather than influencing the NPCs.

 

FO was better than Torment in that your actions mattered to the actual gameworld, but Torment was superior to FO in that your actions determined the fates of the characters you journeyed with. It is really a matter of taste which side of the coin you prefer.

 

P.S. But then again this debate will never have end between us. We have argued this very thing since the old BIS days.

[Volourn]

Huh? Your arguing how they handle npcs; not dialogue system. As far as npcs go, yes, it's obvious that PST's npcs are 100x better than FO's. However, youw ere disucssing dialogue systems; not npcs. Please clarify. Afterall, PST has the same dialogue system that the other IE games have. It just uses the system more which is why as far as dialogue options goes; PST wins over BG2 (though BG2 is very good in this regard too); but as far as actual systems go; no.

[Lancer]

Huh? Your arguing how they handle npcs; not dialogue system. As far as npcs go, yes, it's obvious that PST's npcs are 100x better than FO's. However, youw ere disucssing dialogue systems; not  npcs. Please clarify. Afterall, PST has the same dialogue system that the other IE games have. It just uses the system more which is why as far as dialogue options goes; PST wins over BG2 (though BG2 is very good in this regard too); but as far as actual systems go; no.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You know what I meant .. When I think "dialogue system" I am thinking of how npcs are handled as you state here. So yeah.. Semantics aside... I agree with what you say here 100%

 

And you are being remarkably civil! That is refreshing!

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"What one considers 'poor combat' differs from person to person. I for one didn't think the combat was poor at all. And never understood the folks that do."

 

That might be because you wouldn't recognize good combat even if it hit you in the face repeatedly with a sledgehammer and took a dump in your mouth.

[EnderAndrew]

Ultima VII's combat might well have not existed for all I care. It was a complete non-factor. You entered combat mode, and it basically played itself out.

 

However, the game was still incredible. Often I wonder if someone might take the Exult code (open source and all) and built a game upon it with improved combat.

[alanschu]

Heh, you could have manual control on combat, but on all but the slowest computers it became unweidly IMO. I just had it auto attack with my Two-Handed Sword of d00m!

 

 

Ultima VII is still one of my all time favourite games, of any genre.

[Dranoel]

The guy has a mutant thumb- I'd get that checked out/removed if I was you!