Jade Empire Bombed

[alanschu]

Can you prove the lack of BL sales was the reason for Troika's downfall? I bet the reason for their downfall goes MUCH deeper than that.

 

Proof please.

 

And, oh, unless BIO folds within the same timeframe that Troiak did after BL was released, you lose. I believe Troika lasted 6 months or so after BL.. BIo, 6 months after JE's release, are still going strong.

 

Of course the fact that Bioware is still in business has absolutely nothing to do with the huge sellers they've had previously. I mean, the entire success of Bioware rested solely on the shoulders of Jade Empire. If the game didn't sell at all, then Bioware would have crumbled.

 

R00fles!

 

 

Proof me wrong. Show me a game that has sold 500k copies within 6 months that was considered a bomb. In fact, show my 5 to at least show a trend as we all know there are exceptions to every rule. The fact that you cna't name even one off hand says it all.

 

Most people at one point thought the world was flat too. Didn't make them right. Just because YOU don't know of one, doesn't mean that it's not possible.

 

When a lead designer for the same developer says that sales pretty much need to exceed a million for the high quality games, it's funny that you just toss it aside.

 

I'm pretty sure Jade Empire is not an exception to that rule, but nice try.

 

 

You certainly don't have "hardcore proof" though. You yourself have admitted that it's not possible to get hardcore proof. Mind you, this is all coming from the guy that makes claims that JE exceeded expectations too, so we all have pretty much hardcore proof that you'll say anything to make Jade Empire seem more successful, even if it's flatout lying.

[GhostofAnakin]

Maple Leafs suck. You auto lose the argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good thing you got my point.

 

Oh and about Troika, six months after BL was released? Try financial difficulty ONE month after. If you followed the Bloodlines forums you would have known that.

[Volourn]

500k sales. 'Nough said.

 

Unlike you, I don't consider Dave Gaider a god. His word isn't holy gospel. I think he's cool; but he's not all knowing. Not to mention how in his little speech he never mentioned JE; but 'just' DA and NWN - both PC games, and both games highly dependent on a MP component. Hmm..

 

I still await a short list of 500k sellers that were considered bombs by the developer/publisher financially. So, that means no Lara Croft games. LOL

 

5 is a reaosnable request as every rule has an exception. Even 1 would be a start as it would at least show it as a possibility albeit slim.

 

BIO considers it to be successful. MS considers it successfule nough to already announce JE2 for the x-box 360 to be a definite even before Bio is ready to officially annouce it.

 

That's proof enough for me unless you have proof that the BIO rep was lying ala a taping of him admitting it behind the scenes.

 

 

"Proof please."

 

Many reasons were given by Troika and others for why they ultimately failed tro stay in business. Do research. Sales were not the only reason - not even close.

 

 

 

I shall await.

 

 

"Oh and about Troika, six months after BL was released? Try financial difficulty ONE month after. If you followed the Bloodlines forums you would have known that."

 

What Bl forums? And, if they wer ehaving financial dififuclty one month afterwrads; it's obviously wasn't because of Bl possible lack of sales; but the alck of sales from previous titles and no future dvelopment deals because Troika kept trying to hardball publishers. And, they failed. R00fles!

[alanschu]

Unlike you, I don't consider Dave Gaider a god. His word isn't holy gospel. I think he's cool; but he's not all knowing. Not to mention how in his little speech he never mentioned JE; but 'just' DA and NWN - both PC games, and both games highly dependent on a MP component. Hmm..

 

I don't consider Dave Gaider a God either. But I do consider him a bit more knowledgeable about the games industry than you. His word certainly carries a lot more weight. You just choose to descredit it, as it goes against what you would like to think.

 

5 is a reaosnable request as every rule has an exception. Even 1 would be a start as it would at least show it as a possibility albeit slim.

 

Give me a list of games that have sold 500,000 units (but not more than 600,000), and you'll see how unreasonable your request actually is.

 

However, the other games of Jade Empire's exposure and budget tend to make 500k sales in their first few days.

 

 

 

Many reasons were given by Troika and others for why they ultimately failed tro stay in business. Do research. Sales were not the only reason - not even close.

 

Yeah, the 74k units sold by February had nothing to do with it. r00fles!

[GhostofAnakin]

What Bl forums? And, if they wer ehaving financial dififuclty one month afterwrads; it's obviously wasn't because of Bl possible lack of sales; but the alck of sales from previous titles and no future dvelopment deals because Troika kept trying to hardball publishers. And, they failed. R00fles!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Proof please. I'd like to see actual documented proof that Troika kept trying to hardball publishers. So far I've seen conjecture and rumors and innuendo on your part. I'd also like to see proof that they were having financial difficulty.

 

For someone who is always asking for proof from others you're quite the hypocrite in terms of rarely (note the word "rarely" before you throw a hissy fit and link me to one or two times out of 7000 that you provided proof) providing proof for things you post.

[EnderAndrew]

I'm still waiting for actual PROOF that 500k sales for JE makes it a bomb or a 'dissapointment'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bioware said the LE copies would sell-out on preorders alone. They still sit on store shelves. You've been told this multiple times.

 

Fanbois ignore evidence put directly in there face.

 

What does that make you?

 

R00fles indeed.

[alanschu]

For someone who is always asking for proof from others you're quite the hypocrite in terms of rarely (note the word "rarely" before you throw a hissy fit and link me to one or two times out of 7000 that you provided proof) providing proof for things you post.

 

He's already admitted he can't be bothered to show proof in a different thread. Something about "because other people never show him proof" or something along those lines.

 

You'd think he'd quit asking. But proof is all in the eye of the beholder for him, and he beholds his opinion over the statements of Bioware employees and marketters, as well as over trends in business marketting.

[Volourn]

"However, the other games of Jade Empire's exposure and budget tend to make 500k sales in their first few days."

 

You know JE's budget? WOW! Ok then. How much did JE cost to develop, and advertise? I shall await since you seem knowledgeable about JE's budget.

 

 

 

"Bioware said the LE copies would sell-out on preorders alone. They still sit on store shelves. You've been told this multiple times."

 

You gave no evidence. You gave a link to their On Line Store. That's not proof.

 

 

 

"Proof please. I'd like to see actual documented proof that Troika kept trying to hardball publishers. So far I've seen conjecture and rumors and innuendo on your part. I'd also like to see proof that they were having financial difficulty."

 

Does conjecture include rewading what troiians themselves wrote themselves in regards to the company's collapse?

 

The main reason why they went under is simply because they couldn't find a publisher to finance any future products. Troika also made it clear that publishers weren't inetrested in what they wer eoffering. Period. Troika wanted to do a PA RPG; pubishers didn't want to publish it. Game over.

 

 

"For someone who is always asking for proof from others you're quite the hypocrite in terms of rarely (note the word "rarely" before you throw a hissy fit and link me to one or two times out of 7000 that you provided proof) providing proof for things you post."

 

Giving proof is one thing; giving proof that ha sbeen shared so many others times is beneath me. I'm not gonna share links in cases where a simple search by you will find said proof within minutes. I may be lazy; but don't blame my laziness for your laziness.

 

 

"he beholds his opinion over the statements of Bioware employees and marketters"

 

Huh? I'm a BIOfanboy. Doesn't that mean I should believe EVERYTHING BIO tries to feed me? LOLOLLIPOP

 

Another myth shattered.

[EnderAndrew]

Volourn gives no proof of anything, but LIMITED EDITION means that it will sell out. However, anyone who went to Bioware's website can clearly recall how they said they would sell out on preorder.

 

The LIMITED EDITION copies are still sitting on store shelves.

 

I will just repeat that for every post you make.

[Volourn]

Be my guest. it's funny though that only seem to fully recall that mythical page. "

[alanschu]

You know JE's budget? WOW! Ok then. How much did JE cost to develop, and advertise? I shall await since you seem knowledgeable about JE's budget.

 

Jade Empire had over 70 employees working on the game. Considering my friend just recently got hired there pretty much right out of University (i.e. he's not some bigshot coming in) and is making a $45k per year salary, lets just assume that the asymptotic lower bound of the cost for one person is 45k per year. That means that in one year of working on the game, the cost of development is minimum $3.15 million dollars, and that's just salaries, and that's just for one year. The game was "officially" announced in September 2003. However, development HAD to go on quite a bit before this, and not just because of preproduction. Building a quality engine takes years, and Jade Empire uses an in house developed graphics engine. Now, game ENGINE programmers make substantially more than my friend does (according to Gamasutra), working away on the engine alone before the announcement can even be considered.

 

It ignores the allowances given to employees for books and research, and other benefits. Given the rather generous benefits Bioware seems to have for it's employees (coupled with it's remarkably low turnover rate), I'd suspect they probably got Christmas bonuses as well! Not to mentioned the catered breakfasts and catered suppers (and I'm not talking sandwiches, but roast ham and stuff) given to the staff during crunch time (and only the suppers, breakfast is all the time!) for the staff.

 

This also ignores fixed costs such as those annoying utilities and renting out virtually an entire office building, keeping the workstations up to date with the latest hardwire, maintaining their servers and a host of other fixed costs. But I'll be nice and only assume responsibility of 1/4 of that, given that they have 4 games in development right now (although I don't know if they did when Jade Empire was in development, so it's even generous for that).

 

 

Not to mention the frequent trips to China for research, and lord knows what else.

[Volourn]

LOL In other words, you don't know the development costs of JE. 'Nough said.

 

P.S. The fact you are trying to include sandwhiches and building space as part of the cost of JE says everything about your supposed knowledge. And, oh, your 'i know an x who did y' does nothing for me.

[Voloυrn]

No, really guys. JE bombed.

 

But you know, in fact, it sold really well.

 

The proof i severywhere. So please don't go aroudn spreading mythical myths and innuendos.

 

 

 

[mkreku]

Well, it's clear for everyone with a brain that Jade Empire didn't break even. I guess that's something the developers have to take into account when starting a new franchise. I assume Bioware can handle it (seeing as they're pretty successful elsewhere), but what does a fact like this mean for, for example, Obsidian? Project New Jersey is (probably) a new IP for consoles only (hope not, but it seems likely). Can Obsidian take a blow like Jade Empire and not end up like Troika?

[alanschu]

LOL In other words, you don't know the development costs of JE. 'Nough said.

 

P.S. The fact you are trying to include sandwhiches and building space as part of the cost of JE says everything about your supposed knowledge. And, oh, your 'i know an x who did y' does nothing for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No, in other words, it's almost 7 million based on two years of salary alone. It's definitely up there in costs with the rest of the Triple-AAA titles that have gone on to sell multiple millions of copies. This ignores the rest of the additional costs that I presented. I never said I directly knew the costs. I mentioned it was in the same league as the rest of the high budget games out there. It's common knowledge that the AAA titles are between $5 and $10 million in development costs.

 

You can ignore "sandwiches and building space" if you want, but unfortunately realy businesses don't have to. Since you were making implications that Bioware's future was directly dependent on the success of Jade Empire, it'd be foolish to ignore it.

 

I am able to make educated guesses on it from that alone. The fact that you ignore them is typical however.

 

I don't care if you do or do not care whether or not I have a friend working at Bioware now. But that's the facts. And his entry level salary was $45k. Unless the rest of the employees all make that exact same amount of money as him, the 3.15 million in one year of wages is a gross underestimate of wages. It also ignores the development cost of an engine. There's a reason why companies like Epic games are able to license their engines for close to $1 million dollars, and it's considered a deal by the licensee.

[alanschu]

Well, it's clear for everyone with a brain that Jade Empire didn't break even. I guess that's something the developers have to take into account when starting a new franchise. I assume Bioware can handle it (seeing as they're pretty successful elsewhere), but what does a fact like this mean for, for example, Obsidian? Project New Jersey is (probably) a new IP for consoles only (hope not, but it seems likely). Can Obsidian take a blow like Jade Empire and not end up like Troika?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I don't know if it's necessarily a "new IP" thing or not. Maybe it should have the "RPG" qualifier attached to it, if anything. A "new IP RPG" so to speak. As there's plenty of new IP games that are huge sellers.

[mkreku]

I don't know if it's necessarily a "new IP" thing or not.  Maybe it should have the "RPG" qualifier attached to it, if anything.  A "new IP RPG" so to speak.  As there's plenty of new IP games that are huge sellers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But are we sure it's a RPG? I was thinking that perhaps it was more like GTA: San Andreas since they're using Unreal 3 technology and seem to aim for the console market. Also, J.E. Sawyer stated his opinion about what he thought defined a RPG, and it differs from the old time RPG's we're used to.

 

Of course, I might be way off and Obsidian are working on a KotOR-look-alike..

[alanschu]

I think it's been suggested that it will be an "action-RPG." But the thing is, is that "new IP" in and of itself is not a game killer. A good game is a good game. Established IPs can be helpful, but certainly not necessary.

 

It sounds like PNJ is a "spiritual successor" of a game.

[alanschu]

This was probably already mentioned, but oh well.

 

Hmmmm, assuming Bioware gets a full 15% from every sale, and assuming that every sale is $50, then they get $7.50 from every sale.

 

500,000 units sold * 7.50 = $3.75 million dollars.

 

I can see where Gaider gets his idea that million units being shipped starts to be key, with the $7.5 million in income that would provide.

[Arkan]

This was probably already mentioned, but oh well.

 

Hmmmm, assuming Bioware gets a full 15% from every sale, and assuming that every sale is $50, then they get $7.50 from every sale.

 

500,000 units sold * 7.50 = $3.75 million dollars.

 

I can see where Gaider gets his idea that million units being shipped starts to be key, with the $7.5 million in income that would provide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I always thought devs/publishers/whatever got their money from selling the copies to the retailers, and that was pretty much it (selling out requires buy more from the publisher, etc.)

 

Oh well...

[EnderAndrew]

Volourn gives no proof of anything, but LIMITED EDITION means that it will sell out. However, anyone who went to Bioware's website can clearly recall how they said they would sell out on preorder.

 

The LIMITED EDITION copies are still sitting on store shelves.

 

I'll repeat it 50 times if I have to.

[LoneWolf16]

Didn't Halo 2 sell upwards of 6,000,000 copies?

 

 

500,000 doesn't seem so great by comparison...

[Dhruin]

Fable proves a new IP action-RPG on an Xbox-only platform can sell >1M...even if the content isn't that great.

[alanschu]

I was looking for Fable's numbers but ended up getting distracted

 

I do find it interesting that the limited edition of Jade Empire isn't very limited

[EnderAndrew]

Halo 2 made something like 125 million dollars on the very first day it was available for sale. At $50 a pop, that is 2.5 million copies it sold in the very first day alone.