DemonKing Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 500 000 units sold is a relative figure at best. If the developer cut from each unit sold @ $50US is, say $7.50 (eg 15%, the industry standard), then Bio would make $3 750 000. If JE cost $3million to develop, then Bio are making a profit, albeit not a monster profit. If however, JE cost $5-10million to make, the current industry standard for a AAA title, then it's a flop, and no amount of Volo going on about how 500 000 units sold is in no way a flop will make it otherwise. Game Over. (PS. For an interesting read here's an article supporting the above figures: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/8/4)
jaguars4ever Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 I liked KOTOR I alot. I liked KOTOR II even better.However, JE is, IMO, a better game than either K1 or K2. Anytime you break new ground, you have to understand that it may flop or not do as well as you think it should. This is how JE broke new ground: * a Western-style cRPG with a very immersive story AND with real-time combat. normally, you get one or the other. * this is a new IP. NWNs and KOTOR had established franchises to gloss over their weak points. JE does not...it is its own world and a rather interesting one at that. [ Plano Skywalker : +10 TOMBS ] --- Now some would say that an RPG should not be a "twitch" game. Well, thereis a certain style of combat (transformation) that is a bit overpowered. I believe this was done on purpose...it was a crutch for the old schoolers who don't want to grind it out with real-time combat. For those that do want to grind it out, well, they can handicap themselves and just not use that style. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah, the Glory of Jade Golem. ^_^
EnderAndrew Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 500 000 units sold is a relative figure at best. If the developer cut from each unit sold @ $50US is, say $7.50 (eg 15%, the industry standard), then Bio would make $3 750 000. If JE cost $3million to develop, then Bio are making a profit, albeit not a monster profit. If however, JE cost $5-10million to make, the current industry standard for a AAA title, then it's a flop, and no amount of Volo going on about how 500 000 units sold is in no way a flop will make it otherwise. Game Over. Given that the game got price cuts early, and is already down to $20 a pop, those figures are pretty generous.
Volourn Posted September 2, 2005 Author Posted September 2, 2005 "I love how no one has responded to my point that the limited edition preorder copies are still sitting on retail shelves. Bioware expected a huge hit, and it got moderate success at best. The game clearly underperformed for expectations." Proof please. You have no idea what kind of sales margin BIO was expecting. I seriosuly doubt BIO expected BG-NWN-KOTOR type numbers. Show me real proof. Until you do, you've done nothing but make things up. "If however, JE cost $5-10million to make, the current industry standard for a AAA title, then it's a flop, and no amount of Volo going on about how 500 000 units sold is in no way a flop will make it otherwise." You are assuming BIO paid for everything. You seem to forget they had a partner in making JE. BIO did not 100% finance JE alone. "Given that the game got price cuts early, and is already down to $20 a pop, those figures are pretty generous." The game is $50+ still here. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
EnderAndrew Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Proof? Bioware said on their website that the Limited Editions were expected to sell out on preorders alone. They are sitting on store shelves right now. And Microsoft said the game is going to the $20 price range. The same retailers sell to Canada and the US. Some retailers in the US already have it at $20 that I've seen. So I highly doubt anyone is selling the game for $50. Where is your proof?
jaguars4ever Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 I seriosuly doubt BIO expected BG-NWN-KOTOR type numbers. Yes, it would be absurd to have believed their IP could match quite possibly the most successful franchise on the planet (SW), or the juggernaut BG's. So although we have no quantitative evidence to suggest explicity what Bio's sales expectations were, I think it's safe to say they didn't expect the aformentioned sales numbers. -- Proof? Bioware said on their website that the Limited Editions were expected to sell out on preorders alone. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If so, then that is indicitive of higher expectations - however, "expecting more/less" still is a relative thing as we don't really don't how much of a success they anticipated compartively.
Volourn Posted September 2, 2005 Author Posted September 2, 2005 My proof is in the article. BIO states quite clearly there that they are *happy* with the amount of sales JE got. If the game have BOMBED (do epople even know what that means?); do you think they'd be 'happy' about it? No, I think not. The proof is that most games don't even come close to 500k sales. "Bioware said on their website that the Limited Editions were expected to sell out on preorders alone." Proof. And, yes, JE is still selling at $50 at my local EB, and that was just last month I had noticed it. Then again, it's not like I spend my time spying on it so I might have dropped a little lower. Then again, my EB rarely drops its prices all that much no matter the game as even one like TOEE or KOTOR has really dropped its price. Still waiting on proof that BIO is dissapointed in JE's sales to counteract what they state in the article. Also, on that note, even if one could find proof that BIO is 'dissapointed'; it still does not prove that JE BOMBED. Do people even know what 'FINANCIAL BOMB' means? I think not - at least what one can gather from this thread. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
jaguars4ever Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Do people even know what 'FINANCIAL BOMB' means? I think not - at least what one can gather from this thread. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> :D I doubt many people here believe JE tanked or "bombed", so we shouldn't hide behind semantics. The real concern seems to be whether it was a commercial success, or not.
alanschu Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Proof please. You have no idea what kind of sales margin BIO was expecting. I seriosuly doubt BIO expected BG-NWN-KOTOR type numbers. Show me real proof. Until you do, you've done nothing but make things up. Why wouldn't they? They've had great sellers before. I doubt they went into the development of Jade Empire thinking they only wanted to release a smaller title. MDK 2 would fit that bill. Do people even know what 'FINANCIAL BOMB' means? I think not - at least what one can gather from this thread Enlighten us.
Volourn Posted September 2, 2005 Author Posted September 2, 2005 "I doubt many people here believed JE tanked or "bombed" so we shouldn't hide behind semantics. The real concern seems to be whether it was a commercial success, or not." Actually, more than a few of people have explicitly stated that they believe JE literally bombed. That's not semantics. Besdies, at 500k sold it was obviously a commercial success. The only things we don't know for sure is what its profit (or loss) margin, and how many units it was expected to sell. That is all. For now. "Why wouldn't they? They've had great sellers before. I doubt they went into the development of Jade Empire thinking they only wanted to release a smaller title. MDK 2 would fit that bill." JE is not BG-NWN-KOTOR for obvious reasons. Figure out the differences on your own. Thankyou for playing. And, once again, according to said article, BIO is happy with JE's sales so it seems to be whatever their expectations were JE surely didn't 'bomb'. Game over. "Enlighten us." You are intelligent, Alanshu. You should be able to figure out what 'financial bomb' means. I can guarnatee you it does not neccessarily mean 'performed below expectations'. Period. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
jaguars4ever Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 Do people even know what 'FINANCIAL BOMB' means? I think not - at least what one can gather from this thread Enlighten us. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A warhead loaded with
EnderAndrew Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 "Bioware said on their website that the Limited Editions were expected to sell out on preorders alone." Proof. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You've gone from a fanboi to a hyprocrite. Bioware's actual statements on their website don't count as proof, except when they do. and you demand proof from me but offer up none of your own. Hypocritical posts like these are standard Volourn-fair. http://web.archive.org/web/20041125060300/store.bioware.com/ Sadly, there isn't a recent enough archive snap-shot of the Bioware store, but Bioware's own website said that if you didn't preorder Jade Empire, then the Limited Edition would sell out.
jaguars4ever Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 "Bioware said on their website that the Limited Editions were expected to sell out on preorders alone." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You've gone from a fanboi to a hyprocrite. Bioware's actual statements on their website don't count as proof, except when they do. and you demand proof from me but offer up none of your own. Hypocritical posts like these are standard Volourn-fair. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wait, wait - I though you said that, Ender. Or did you quote the wrong quote? Damnit Volo - I told you to stop using those damn quotation marks and start using proper quotes instead! Now, you've confused us all... EDIT: Ah - nm. Ender added in the appropirate Volo-One-Liner. :D
EnderAndrew Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 I accidentally deleted where below he demanded proof for my claim.
Volourn Posted September 2, 2005 Author Posted September 2, 2005 "You've gone from a fanboi to a hyprocrite. Bioware's actual statements on their website don't count as proof, except when they do. and you demand proof from me but offer up none of your own." What actual statement? You've given no actual statement. Just your word about some mythical statement. Am I supposed to take YOUR word for it? And, I have given 'proof' or as much 'proof' as anyone has. 1. 500k sales is more sales than most games get. 2. The article linked shows a BIO rep being HAPPY about said amount of sales. 3. JE has sold 500k in 6 monthswhile BIO's other big games have sold over a million and their either based on more than gaming platofrm (KOTOR and MDK2) and/or are based on existing licenses (KOTOR-NWN-BG). Once again,a BIO rep states that BIO is satisifed with JE's ales due to it being a 'new original IP' therefore by that statement it is apparant that BIO was NOT epxecting KOTOR-NWN-BG type numbers. That shows it didn't drastically underpeform expecations. And, it most certainly didn't financially bomb. So, once again, proof please. Also proof my hypocrisy on this issue. edit: "Sadly, there isn't a recent enough archive snap-shot of the Bioware store, but Bioware's own website said that if you didn't preorder Jade Empire, then the Limited Edition would sell out. " So, no proof then right? Not to mention, even if said quote exist, it's obvious hype. Pre order now to get the 'sepcial' Collectors Edition! Don't miss out by waiting too long! Sounds like hype to me; not a true expectation. It probably worke don you too as you rushed out nearly being run over by a car trying to preorder JE so you didn't miss out on the uber duber Collector's Edition. R00fles! Tsk, tsk. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Dhruin Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 You're the one pretending the argument is about "bombing", Volourn. I said sales were "mediocre" and Bio would be "disappointed" but you've flip-flopped from 500k is a one step from a mega-super-duper-OMG-it's-nearly-as-good-as-the-GTA-series hit to irrelevant rubbish about it not bombing. Does anyone seriously think Bio -- a 220-staff heavyweight of independant studios -- would be happy with JE being their lowest selling game since SS?
EnderAndrew Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 What actual statement? You've given no actual statement. Just your word about some mythical statement. Am I supposed to take YOUR word for it? You're calling me a liar. You can quote Bioware, but apparently I can't. That makes you a hypocrite. I atleast attempted to find proof for my claim by looking up a cached version of Bioware's website. And, I have given 'proof' or as much 'proof' as anyone has.Except you haven't. You make a claim and then call everyone else's claims false.1. 500k sales is more sales than most games get.It is said that most games are commercial failures so this proves nothing.2. The article linked shows a BIO rep being HAPPY about said amount of sales.Again, this proves nothing. Would Bioware say their game was a failure? No one really calls their products failures why they are still trying to market it. Logic truly escapes Volourn, but this is nothing new. I don't know why I bother. 3. JE has sold 500k in 6 monthswhile BIO's other big games have sold over a million and their either based on more than gaming platofrm (KOTOR and MDK2) and/or are based on existing licenses (KOTOR-NWN-BG).Halo 2 made over $125 million in a single day. Yet selling 500k copies in six months is supposed to be impressive? Again, Jags came back with actual figures. Given the AVERAGE cost of production of a game today is $5-10 million, and that Jade Empire was a premiere title, $5-10 million is a fair estimate. The budget may have been even higher. I've never once said the game bombed, but the game is in no way a commercial success.
Volourn Posted September 2, 2005 Author Posted September 2, 2005 "You're the one pretending the argument is about "bombing", Volourn. I said sales were "mediocre" and Bio would be "disappointed" but you've flip-flopped from 500k is a one step from a mega-super-duper-OMG-it's-nearly-as-good-as-the-GTA-series hit to irrelevant rubbish about it not bombing. Does anyone seriously think Bio -- a 220-staff heavyweight of independant studios -- would be happy with JE being their lowest selling game since SS?" Nonsense. More than a few people have stated that JE bombed. And, oh, read the thread title. It (sarcastingly) reads that JE bombed so, once again, what is the topic about again? And, oh, BIo surely doesn't sound dissapointed in JE's sales in said article that is linked, and no one has yet shown any proof that BIO is actaully dissapointed in JE's sales nor any quote of how many units BIO epxected JE to sell. From the artcile, BIO is HAPPY about the 500k units sold. Game over. edit (this is back and forth quick, lol): "You're calling me a liar. You can quote Bioware, but apparently I can't. That makes you a hypocrite. I atleast attempted to find proof for my claim by looking up a cached version of Bioware's website." I'm not calling you a liar. Not taking someone's word at face value is NOT claling them a liar; it's called not giving them the benefit of the doubt. Just like you don't trust me 'cause I'm bias; I don't trust you. And, I have quoted BIO. I linked the article. "Again, this proves nothing. Would Bioware say their game was a failure? No one really calls their products failures why they are still trying to market it. Logic truly escapes Volourn, but this is nothing new. I don't know why I bother." That's nice. You get amd because you think i called you a liar (which I didn't); but then you go ahead and call the BIO rep a liar. Uhuh. Bottom line is that BIO accoridng to that rep in the article are HAPPY about the 500k sales. Period. This is undisputable. "Halo 2 made over $125 million in a single day. Yet selling 500k copies in six months is supposed to be impressive?" Nice. JE is a failure because it didn't sell as much as Halo 2. Wonder never cease. I think it should be obvious that no one in their right mind epxected Halo 2 type numbers from JE. LMAO Nor was I (or anyone) caomapring JE to Halo2. JE isn't even in the same league. "Again, Jags came back with actual figures. Given the AVERAGE cost of production of a game today is $5-10 million, and that Jade Empire was a premiere title, $5-10 million is a fair estimate. The budget may have been even higher." And? "I've never once said the game bombed, but the game is in no way a commercial success." Proof please. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
EnderAndrew Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 I am claiming that everyone is thread is lying, but I can't possibly conceive that Bioware would be anything but sincere in saying the game is a commercial success despite poor sales. If they say the game did well, then surely it did! There is no possible agenda, and surely Bioware isn't put in a situation where they have no choice but to stand behind their product. Game over! Man, I come up with the best arguements in the whole wide world! <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
alanschu Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 "Why wouldn't they? They've had great sellers before. I doubt they went into the development of Jade Empire thinking they only wanted to release a smaller title. MDK 2 would fit that bill." JE is not BG-NWN-KOTOR for obvious reasons. Figure out the differences on your own. Thankyou for playing. And, once again, according to said article, BIO is happy with JE's sales so it seems to be whatever their expectations were JE surely didn't 'bomb'. Game over. "Enlighten us." You are intelligent, Alanshu. You should be able to figure out what 'financial bomb' means. I can guarnatee you it does not neccessarily mean 'performed below expectations'. Period. Classic baiting. Reported.
Volourn Posted September 2, 2005 Author Posted September 2, 2005 "Classic baiting. Reported." LOL As you wish, but there is no baiting go on. "I am claiming that everyone is thread is lying, but I can't possibly conceive that Bioware would be anything but sincere in saying the game is a commercial success despite poor sales. If they say the game did well, then surely it did! There is no possible agenda, and surely Bioware isn't put in a situation where they have no choice but to stand behind their product. Game over! Man, I come up with the best arguements in the whole wide world!" Asking for proof is not the same thing as calling someone a liar. You should know the difference. That said, misquoting someone's post on purpose to make it seem theyw rote something is against forum policy. therefore, you are reported. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Volourn Posted September 2, 2005 Author Posted September 2, 2005 "Didn't Feargus also say PS:T sold well?" He said it sold well over time. I believe it's around 200-300k. Maybe a little less, maybe a little more. IIRC Don't quote me on that though. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
kirottu Posted September 2, 2005 Posted September 2, 2005 And, oh, BIo surely doesn't sound dissapointed in JE's sales in said article that is linked, and no one has yet shown any proof that BIO is actaully dissapointed in JE's sales nor any quote of how many units BIO epxected JE to sell. From the artcile, BIO is HAPPY about the 500k units sold. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Didn't Feargus also say PS:T sold well? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think PS:T sold along the lines of 400 000 to 500 000, but I couldn This post is not to be enjoyed, discussed, or referenced on company time.
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