Does Revan's fate make any sense?

[Calax]

phile you say that the True sith are the decendants or the Golden Age group, well then that's either the (now wiped out) massasi, or the former inhabitants or Korribon. the only place that would work is the Ice planet group (i'm a horrible SW Geek, I don't remeber the name) and I don't think that one planet makes much of a empire.

[darknesslord]

there was a rumour that it would be marka ragnos, (I think, or naga sadow) well the one that we dont know what happened to him... i'd like to see that tho

[Master_Vrook]

People talk about this as though it's some kind of gimmick to sell copies, it's an actual part of the storyline and we must accept it.

[Krookie]

Yeah, but..oh nevermind...

[Master_Vrook]

But what? It's not something you can just change, it's something set in the storyline and acceptance should come naturally.

[Krookie]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Jediphile]

phile you say that the True sith are the decendants or the Golden Age group, well then that's either the (now wiped out) massasi, or the former inhabitants or Korribon. the only place that would work is the Ice planet group (i'm a horrible SW Geek, I don't remeber the name) and I don't think that one planet makes much of a empire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, it's an assumption on my part, but I do think it's a fairly obvious one.

 

The Sith Empire was said to be more powerful than the Republic, though smaller. Still, that was in the golden age of the Sith, when Naga Sadow began the Hyperspace War, and the Sith Empire was probably hurt a lot when they lost that war. Then again, that was a thousand years before KotOR, so a lot may have happened since. For example, both Malachor V and Korriban seem to be known worlds in the Republic.

 

But there are still several of those worlds we haven't heard much about or which haven't been used since in KotOR games, including Ch'hodos, Rhelg (the private world of Ludo Kressh), and Khar Delba and its moon Khar Shian (which was Naga Sadow's secret world). And naturally the most central world is the throne world, where the Dark Lord of the Sith rules the empire - Ziost. And that is where I suspect Revan may have gone, and where a KotOR3 may take us.

 

May not seem like much, but I always got the impression that these were just a few names for some token Sith worlds that served as examples for the all the worlds we didn't hear about. After all, the Sith empire was an empire, so it's scarcely just one planet. Besides, note how Kreia says that Malachor and Korriban - which are the only old Sith worlds we hear of - were on the outskirts of the Sith empire...

 

That leaves us plenty of Sith to bash in the next game

[Krookie]

You like to type, don't you?

[Gabrielle]

I see someone has taken lessons from Meta.

[Krookie]

Who has? :D

[Gabrielle]

Jediphile.

 

Not that I'm saying he has long winded replies like Meta does. "

[Krookie]

[Cathryn]

People talk about this as though it's some kind of gimmick to sell copies, it's an actual part of the storyline and we must accept it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nah, more like glad that it ended up as both. Could've been worse

[Krookie]

[Nur Ab Sal]

phile you say that the True sith are the decendants or the Golden Age group, well then that's either the (now wiped out) massasi, or the former inhabitants or Korribon. the only place that would work is the Ice planet group (i'm a horrible SW Geek, I don't remeber the name) and I don't think that one planet makes much of a empire.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, it's an assumption on my part, but I do think it's a fairly obvious one.

 

The Sith Empire was said to be more powerful than the Republic, though smaller. Still, that was in the golden age of the Sith, when Naga Sadow began the Hyperspace War, and the Sith Empire was probably hurt a lot when they lost that war. Then again, that was a thousand years before KotOR, so a lot may have happened since. For example, both Malachor V and Korriban seem to be known worlds in the Republic.

 

But there are still several of those worlds we haven't heard much about or which haven't been used since in KotOR games, including Ch'hodos, Rhelg (the private world of Ludo Kressh), and Khar Delba and its moon Khar Shian (which was Naga Sadow's secret world). And naturally the most central world is the throne world, where the Dark Lord of the Sith rules the empire - Ziost. And that is where I suspect Revan may have gone, and where a KotOR3 may take us.

 

May not seem like much, but I always got the impression that these were just a few names for some token Sith worlds that served as examples for the all the worlds we didn't hear about. After all, the Sith empire was an empire, so it's scarcely just one planet. Besides, note how Kreia says that Malachor and Korriban - which are the only old Sith worlds we hear of - were on the outskirts of the Sith empire...

 

That leaves us plenty of Sith to bash in the next game

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree but established EU lore says that Sith Empire totally fell in the wake of the Great Hyperspace War 1000 years before KOTOR, and its worlds were assimilated by the Republic. That's why spirits of old sith lords prepared Exar Kun to start the Sith War - he was intended to be the instrument of revenge for the destruction of their legendary empire. I think that blurb about such empire existing in Revan time's is a clear contradiction and something very repetitive - just like in TSL, the Jedi Disapperance Plot that stripes Luke Skywalker OT Era from unique originality.

 

Besides Revan is a villain and killing Malak couldn't truly reedem him. He was Stalin of his times, he had blood of millions on his hands and Kreia's babbling about his supposed "sacrifice for greater good" (in name of which he murdered so many jedi) sounds like lame excuse. It is similar to Timothy Zahn's efforts to justify Thrawn when he wrote in "Hand of Thrawn" that Thrawn tried to protect galaxy from the dangers hidden in the unknown regions and that's why worked for Palpatine -TSL crap sounds the same and I suspect that Avellone just plagiated Zahn's concept - this is the same try of excusing a powerful villain.

[Plano Skywalker]

After playing TSL, despite my respect for its great storyline, I'm almost sure that KIII will be the worst of the entire series if next developer will decide to continue Revan blurb. This entire "true sith" thing and trip to unknown regions sounds more lame than most of the EU crap. Does OE really had to continue these boring and unclear revanesque suckage? In any way in KIII we'll meet big disappointment cause Star Wars witnessed hidden threats and unknown dangers far too many times - and always it was just an excuse for authors' lack of imagination. I suspect that Avellone was deflated and so he decided to avoid showing Revan's fate and tell story of some big dark unknown threat that captured Revan... anyhow in KIII true sith and this hidden danger will prove to be just another BIG NOTHING......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the problem is this: LA had no idea that BioWare would capture lightning in a bottle with the Revan character. Revan is now the more popular among many SW fans than Exar Kun or Luke Skywalker....trust me, they had no idea.

 

But now Revan is, essentially, the dominant EU character in that time period and they can't just not use his name...that is the reality we are stuck with.

 

 

someone mentioned that "the Revan saga" is kinda like "the Bourne saga".

that would have been fine: give us a pregen and PACE THE GAMES so where

we can use the same pregen throughout the trilogy.

 

HOWEVER, this is simply not possible now. As I see it, we either have:

 

1) there is no trilogy...which effectively means that K2 was not really a cliffhanger.

the KOTOR games are one big soap offering no real resolution.

 

2) there is a trilogy in that the antagonist has been there and alluded to the whole

time....the protagonist changes but the antagonist stays the same.

 

3) there is a trilogy and the protagonist is the same (Revan) but you are not playing the primary protagonist...you are playing a minor, supportive character.

 

 

* Scenario 1

is probably the easiest for the devs/writers. Revan becomes a convenient

plot device like Charlie from Charlie's Angles or Robin Masters from Magnum P.I.

He never gets any real resolution but is always lurking in the shadows. IMO, while this is easiest for the devs, this is probably the least satisfying for the consumer.

 

* Scenario 2

this seems to be where this thing is headed. there are a number of clues to suggest it: K1 mentions the fact that Naga Sadow's body is not really buried on Korriban, for instance. also, the bit with Canderous and how "the Sith" approached the Mandalorians to go to war. There is no way this could have been the Revan/Malak Sith. Whether BioWare intended it or not, the "true Sith" thing has plenty of footing in K1 to make this a viable way to wrap up the story arch we are in now.

 

* Scenario 3

I doubt this one will be used. however, this one is actually my favorite. why do I have to play the primary protagonist? why can't I play someone in a secondary kind of role? This would allow them to tell the story of Revan that they want to tell while giving us the flexibility that comes by not playing a pregen.

[Jediphile]

I agree but established EU lore says that Sith Empire totally fell in the wake of the Great Hyperspace War 1000 years before KOTOR, and its worlds were assimilated by the Republic. That's why spirits of old sith lords prepared Exar Kun to start the Sith War - he was intended to be the instrument of revenge for the destruction of their legendary empire. I think that blurb about such empire existing in Revan time's is a clear contradiction and something very repetitive - just like in TSL, the Jedi Disapperance Plot that stripes Luke Skywalker OT Era from unique originality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Their empire fell, yes, but that doesn't mean the people died. The fall of the Roman Empire didn't mean that its people died, for example, so I don't see there is a problem claiming that there are still those Sith descendants who dream of reviving their old and great empire. If we wanted to explain it all, we could claim that the Sith spirits that prepared Exar Kun did this to weaken the Republic with internal strife, so that the old Sith empire could be revived and conquer the republic, though I admit that I doubt the idea that revenge was the motiviation for the Sith. After all, Exar Kun was corrupted by the spirit of Freedon Nadd, and he was never one of the old Sith, he just learned from them.

 

Also, while the worlds of the old Sith empire might have been assimilated by the Republic at the time of the movies, we know they aren't in KotOR2. Note that Attons says, "Onderon is about as far from the Core as you can get and still be in the Republic".

 

And either way, Kreia directly tells us that the true Sith are indeed tied to the Sith empire at the end:

 

Kreia: "You must go where Revan did, into the Unknown Regions, where the Sith, the true Sith, wait in the dark for the great war that comes. It is because he remembered what lay buried here - this place, its teachings. It paved the way to Korriban, you know, the remnants here. And he came because Malachor, like Korriban, lies on the fringes of the ancient Sith Empire, where the true Sith wait for us, in the dark."

 

Besides Revan is a villain and killing Malak couldn't truly reedem him. He was Stalin of his times, he had blood of millions on his hands and Kreia's babbling about his supposed "sacrifice for greater good" (in name of which he murdered so many jedi) sounds like lame excuse. It is similar to Timothy Zahn's efforts to justify Thrawn when he wrote in "Hand of Thrawn" that Thrawn tried to protect galaxy from the dangers hidden in the unknown regions and that's why worked for Palpatine -TSL crap sounds the same and I suspect that Avellone just plagiated Zahn's concept - this is the same try of excusing a powerful villain.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The idea of redemption is a powerful one, and if you don't like it on a personal level, then there are a great many stories you won't like. It's also a fairly common idea, so to say that it's plagiated just because it was also used in another Star Wars plot seems like a very harsh judgment to me.

 

Besides, what if Revan was made into an instrument of evil by the dark side? Is he still guilty then? And if he did evil things in K1 (player choosing DS ending), then doesn't the blame for it really lie with the jedi council who manipulated his mind and then set him free to pursue his evil again? The idea of atonement is also tied to redemption. Is that acceptable? You could say no, but then if you apply that harsh a judgment for people, then who is ever without guilt? Personally I like the concepts of redemption and atonement, because I don't like the idea that people cannot change for the better, which seems to me like the inevitable consequence of the alternative. But that's a discussion for philosophers and theologians...

[Nur Ab Sal]

First: TOTJ comics stated that all worlds of Sith Empire were assimilated by Old Republic before Great Sith War and that entire Sith Race was exterminated by the Jedi. So all that remained in Revan times is idea and relics.

 

Second: I like idea of an redemption but Revan's redemption is poorly executed.

On the other hand Ulic Qel Droma's redemption is executed perfectly and I love it!

So I don't like entire concept of revan and his story. IMO It sounds lame to me...

 

Lame redemption is Bioware's idea. Obsidian added an excuse idea: yes Revan killed and robbed but he did this becouse of some hidden danger he knew about it! Yeah and Stalin knew about nazism so he murdered 30 million peolpe to build heavy industry to be prepared for nazi danger. The same kind of nonsense to me.

[Calax]

Thrawn was not a man who was good or evil. He really didn't care about politics, all he cared about was order. He always referred to the Alliance and later the New Republic as the Rebellion because that's just what they were to him. Had he actually been the overall leader of the Empire with Palp's as the figurehead then the rebellion would have never happened because Thrawn wouldn't have allowed Tarkin's rise or other massacres to happen because he would have figured out what happened. Ultimatly the reason he failed at his gambit to restore the empire is because he has very little ability in subterfuge. He hides everything in peoples blinds spots and doesn't expect there to be any cooperation between races or differing factions. Thrawn isn't a bad guy, he's just a person who would do anything to win and was caught on the wrong side of the war.

[Krookie]

Would he take steroids to win? Would he dye his skin blue to w- oh wait nevermind.

[Ulicus]

First: TOTJ comics stated that all worlds of Sith Empire were assimilated by Old Republic before Great Sith War and that entire Sith Race was exterminated by the Jedi. So all that remained in Revan times is idea and relics.

 

They did? I know that they showed the Sith Empire being beaten, Kressh dying and Sadow fleeing to Yavin IV... but not the fate of the entire Sith Empire...

 

Are you sure the idea that "everything was assimilated into the Old Republic" wasn't just a fan assumption. Much like the "fact" that Naga Sadow was killed by Nadd - is this ever actually *stated* in the comics? No. Assumption.

 

Bare in mind that due to KotOR's popularity, it has had a tremedous impact on the Star Wars continuity and what is and isn't "canon". For example, previously the archaic technological asthetic of TotJ was considered to be "what it was back then", now KotOR's interpretation is the one most widely accepted.

 

I mean, the comics are hardly consistant in terms of presentation- Slyvar completely changes appearance between "The Sith War" and "Redemption."

 

Second: I like idea of an redemption but Revan's redemption is poorly executed.

On the other hand Ulic Qel Droma's redemption is executed perfectly and I love it!

So I don't like entire concept of revan and his story. IMO It sounds lame to me...

 

Fair enough, but then why are you buying the KotOR games? They revolve around their stories which you don't seem to like because the central protagonist is lame. It would be like me watching Dawson's Creek and complaining that Dawson was in it. But since I did do that... so I guess I'm being a hypocrite

 

Lame redemption is Bioware's idea. Obsidian added an excuse idea: yes Revan killed and robbed but he did this becouse of some hidden danger he knew about it! Yeah and Stalin knew about nazism so he murdered 30 million peolpe to build heavy industry to be prepared for nazi danger. The same kind of nonsense to me.

 

All Obsidian did was give Revan motivation for going dark. They didn't justify what Revan did - they explained how *Revan* justified what he did. It didn't make him any less evil or twisted once the dark side took hold of him. Jediphile's comments on this seem spot on to me.

 

Edit:

 

Quotes are working for me?

[Jediphile]

First: TOTJ comics stated that all worlds of Sith Empire were assimilated by Old Republic before Great Sith War and that entire Sith Race was exterminated by the Jedi. So all that remained in Revan times is idea and relics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This I doubt. Sorry, but I do. I've been looking in the TotJ comic books, and the closest I've found is on page 23 of the first issue of "The Freedon Nadd Uprising", when it says, "Outlawed for their evil practices, the Sith civilization long ago vanished into obscurity. The end of the Sith people also marked the disappearance of their Dark Lords". This does not suggest to me that all the Sith worlds were assimilated by the Republic or even that they are known to the Republic.

 

Still, I could be wrong, but I'd like to see evidence to the contrary before I accept it, and even if I did, it seems clear that the KotOR games have already decided to commit to a different version of events. Note Atton's comment about how Onderon is as far as the core that you can get and still be in the Republic, and Kreia's comments about how Korriban and Malachor V are on the fringes of the old Sith empire and had been been forgotten by the true Sith.

 

Second: I like idea of an redemption but Revan's redemption is poorly executed.

On the other hand Ulic Qel Droma's redemption is executed perfectly and I love it!

So I don't like entire concept of revan and his story. IMO It sounds lame to me...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I do see your point... I guess the problem lies in the difference in how you tell a story in a comic book and how you tell it in a computer game. In the KotOR games you play the main character yourself, and that makes it pretty difficult to describe the sort of guilt and soul-searching that Ulic goes through in "Redemption", because in the game all the decisions and answers must come from the player. It might be easier in K3 if Revan is actually in it and is an NPC. We can hope, at least...

 

Lame redemption is Bioware's idea. Obsidian added an excuse idea: yes Revan killed and robbed but he did this becouse of some hidden danger he knew about it! Yeah and Stalin knew about nazism so he murdered 30 million peolpe to build heavy industry to be prepared for nazi danger. The same kind of nonsense to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It's nonsense only if you think that excuses Revan, which I don't - he made a choice and did what he did, and so the responsibility and blame lies with him in the end. We haven't seen how it all plays out, so I'll reserve my judgment on that issue until I actually see K3. But yes, we'll have to see - assuming a LS ending of K1 - a Revan that is truly repentent of what his choices resulted in and went to fight the true Sith alone as a way to atone for his sins. But it'll take pretty good writing to do something like that without making it seem pretty lame. It can be done, though.

[Jediphile]

Jediphile.

 

Not that I'm saying he has long winded replies like Meta does.  "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Gee, thanks.... I guess

[Jediphile]

Thrawn was not a man who was good or evil. He really didn't care about politics, all he cared about was order.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Doesn't matter what his reasons are - what a man does will define whether he is good or evil. Thrawn did a lot of really nasty and manipulative things - manipulating the Noghri, using C'Baoth for his own interests, killing people in his battles, killing people under his command when they didn't live up to his expectations, spying on the Alliance, trapping the fleet on Coruscant, etc. And it was all done to revive the Empire - not a particularly benevolent motive.

 

He always referred to the Alliance and later the New Republic as the Rebellion because that's just what they were to him. Had he actually been the overall leader of the Empire with Palp's as the figurehead  then the rebellion would have never happened because Thrawn wouldn't have allowed Tarkin's rise or other massacres to happen because he would have figured out what happened. Ultimatly the reason he failed at his gambit to restore the empire is because he has very little ability in subterfuge. He hides everything in peoples blinds spots and doesn't expect there to be any cooperation between races or differing factions. Thrawn isn't a bad guy, he's just a person who would do anything to win and was caught on the wrong side of the war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thrawn's real mistake was the same that such people always make - arrogance. He was too certain that he could keep on manipulating everybody and never have them uncover his deception, in his case with the Noghri. Only too late did he learn that arrogance and self-delusions of grandeur are always punished harshly.

 

It sounds to me like you like Thrawn. That's fine. Thrawn is smart, which is a good trait. But don't excuse his actions on that basis. I like Garak on Star Trek DS9 because he was secretive and manipulative, but I do so for his skills, not because I think he's a person who deserves admiration. He was a well-written and beautifully played character, but does not mean I like his character or would desire his traits in real people. On the contrary, I find him fascinating probably mostly because he scares the crap out of me, same way that Hannibal Lecter does.

[Cathryn]

It's nonsense only if you think that excuses Revan, which I don't - he made a choice and did what he did, and so the responsibility and blame lies with him in the end. We haven't seen how it all plays out, so I'll reserve my judgment on that issue until I actually see K3. But yes, we'll have to see - assuming a LS ending of K1 - a Revan that is truly repentent of what his choices resulted in and went to fight the true Sith alone as a way to atone for his sins. But it'll take pretty good writing to do something like that without making it seem pretty lame. It can be done, though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It also makes me question how even if Revan had completely pure intentions initially (whether they stayed that way or not), he still defied the Jedi Council's orders to accomplish them. No matter what the intent, that kind of arrogance goes against what I think of as burying the needle on the top of the LS scale Again tyranny can come from either side - which has been discussed already as far as it relates to the context of the story - but such direct disobedience being justified totally by intent? Just doesn't fit for me...which is why I am glad we get to choose the DS ending in K2. No matter - like you said, he's got a lot to answer for if he feels like it.