Why cant someone make a real RPG?

[SteveThaiBinh]

Why NOT kill the fething Molochean hand? I shan't spoil their backstory, but they ain't the damn cubscouts of America. Just kill 'em, man. *

I wouldn't do the peaceful thing a second time, and I wouldn't really advise anyone else to bother, either. What I missed most was not being able to kill

the Schuylers and Virgil's killers

.

Arcanum was certainly good, but I have been having real trouble being evil. Much more so than BG. In fact, while I originally found BG hard to be evil in, if you persevere you find you can be thoroughly bastardular.

Problem in finding enough evil things to do? There's an 'evil walkthrough' on the web somewhere that gives pointers.

If we ever do get proper AI for NPCs, will killing them be actually cruel?

If we ever get real AI, we can ask them.

[Guest Fishboot]

*This made me think. If we ever do get proper AI for NPCs, will killing them be actually cruel?

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Yeah, and deleting your savegames will be like univercide.

[213374U]

I don't think most developers have many good writers, and once again I really wish developers would start employing writers as writers, and separate the job from the computer programming role.  They don't mix well.

 

 

- "What do you mean a Sith Lord would never say '101101000101101110101101001010'?"

- "He wouldn't."

- "Well, fine. How about '110001011010101110010101101101010'?"

- "Nope."

- "Aw, drat."

[GhostofAnakin]

I couldnt be evil because then the guards would be all over me.

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I find it a little ironic that his post complains about games not allowing you to choose various ways to play the game and has no affect on the game world, then makes the above statement when a game does offer something different if you make one of those choices.

[metadigital]

Bob Page is a dead man (or cyberman) if you beat Deus Ex. In all three endings, he dies.

 

Navarra can kill Lebedev for you, if you refuse. So I guess Gunther is unavoidably dead, too (though I have never tried not to kill him.) I especially like

using his killphrase

. :D

[Musopticon?]

Killswitch, you mean?

[metadigital]

Yeah, but you have to operate it remotely, via voice. A phrase.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"I find it a little ironic that his post complains about games not allowing you to choose various ways to play the game and has no affect on the game world, then makes the above statement when a game does offer something different if you make one of those choices."

 

Well, Baldur's Gate practically punished the player for doing evil deeds, instead of presenting believable consequences for them.

[metadigital]

Well, if it was a similation of reality, the evil characters would always have the advantage and (nearly) always win; but then again, that's why people retreat into a fantasy world: they want to believe in Karma and Good always triumphing over evil, and other fairytales ...

[GhostofAnakin]

"I find it a little ironic that his post complains about games not allowing you to choose various ways to play the game and has no affect on the game world, then makes the above statement when a game does offer something different if you make one of those choices."

 

Well, Baldur's Gate practically punished the player for doing evil deeds, instead of presenting believable consequences for them.

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But my main point was he complained that games didn't give consequences for the game world for different actions, when that wasn't the case. If you were evil, the consequences were different than if you were good.

[Walsingham]

Well, if it was a similation of reality, the evil characters would always have the advantage and (nearly) always win; but then again, that's why people retreat into a fantasy world: they want to believe in Karma and Good always triumphing over evil, and other fairytales ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed. in fantasy games it sems just a little daft to stick to closely to reality. nevertheless it makes logical and economic sense to allow players to be evil. Otheriwse they can't really choose to be good!

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"But my main point was he complained that games didn't give consequences for the game world for different actions, when that wasn't the case. If you were evil, the consequences were different than if you were good."

 

If an anvil fell on one of your party member's head and killed them every time you committed an evil action in Baldur's Gate, we wouldn't be arguing this. The consequences of bad deeds weren't far removed from that in the game.

[alanschu]

I still think Mr. Spector included

Lebedev

since he's one of three people that has to die in the game.

 

 

Anna Navarre

is the most obvious one however, as it will get you an item that you need.

[GhostofAnakin]

"But my main point was he complained that games didn't give consequences for the game world for different actions, when that wasn't the case. If you were evil, the consequences were different than if you were good."

 

If an anvil fell on one of your party member's head and killed them every time you committed an evil action in Baldur's Gate, we wouldn't be arguing this. The consequences of bad deeds weren't far removed from that in the game.

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I'm not sure I even understand the point you're trying to make.

 

Are you agreeing with roshan, or are you just picking apart the way I worded my response?

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"I'm not sure I even understand the point you're trying to make."

 

The point is the guards attacking you in Baldur's Gate was less of a consequence of your actions in the game world, and more of a game mechanic intended to punish you for evil actions.

 

If the punishment would've been administered in the form of anvils from the sky or electric shocks, you wouldn't say there were consequences for the game world for different actions, would you?

[alanschu]

But at least you can defeat the guards

[EnderAndrew]

But at least you can defeat the guards

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The same thing happens in Ultima. The guards (and townspeople) will attack you if someone sees you doing something bad, but one could beat down the guards if you have a decent character.

 

The problem with immoral actions is they will actually keep you from beating Ultima IV as the point of the game is to become the Avatar. In Ultima VII, party members will leave you for immorality.

[Jast]

In Deux Ex, you have to kill Agent Navarre and that guy in the missle silo to win the game. Everyone else you can run past if you try hard enough or cheat. You can save Lebedev by killing Navarre before you get to the dialogue where he talks about,"I know something important."(This thread has already dropped some spoilers, hence no spoiler tag.)

[metadigital]

In Deux Ex, you have to kill Agent Navarre and that guy in the missle silo to win the game. Everyone else you can run past if you try hard enough or cheat. You can save Lebedev by killing Navarre before you get to the dialogue where he talks about,"I know something important."(This thread has already dropped some spoilers, hence no spoiler tag.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You do NOT have to kill Navarre.

[GhostofAnakin]

"I'm not sure I even understand the point you're trying to make."

 

The point is the guards attacking you in Baldur's Gate was less of a consequence of your actions in the game world, and more of a game mechanic intended to punish you for evil actions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I never argued how well or how poorly they did it. I simply pointed out that roshan's comment was inaccurate when he inferred that you can only play BG ONE way since playing it as good or evil yields the same result. That's not the case, as if you're evil, the game "punishes" you big time by having guards attack.

 

Whether that was properly implemented is irrelevant, since it was just a matter of whether ANYTHING different happens depending on how you play. If roshan's original comment was accurate, then regardless of whether you were good or evil, the guards would react to you the same way.

[alanschu]

In Deux Ex, you have to kill Agent Navarre and that guy in the missle silo to win the game. Everyone else you can run past if you try hard enough or cheat. You can save Lebedev by killing Navarre before you get to the dialogue where he talks about,"I know something important."(This thread has already dropped some spoilers, hence no spoiler tag.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've never tried killing Navarre while at Lebedev.

 

You do NOT have to kill Navarre.

 

Then how do you get Alex Jacobsen to help you? She has the key to an unpickable locked door.

[213374U]

I've never tried killing Navarre while at Lebedev.

It's fun to try. A shotgun blast to the back of her head usually does the trick. But Lebedev gets it, regardless of what you do since UNATCO has the hangar surrounded.

[alanschu]

Do they storm the plane?

 

It must make the return to UNATCO HQ a bit more...interesting

 

 

EDIT: In other news, all this discussion has just caused me to reinstall the game

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Whether that was properly implemented is irrelevant, since it was just a matter of whether ANYTHING different happens depending on how you play. If roshan's original comment was accurate, then regardless of whether you were good or evil, the guards would react to you the same way."

 

I do think it is quite obvious that Roshan meant meaningful consequences. And, if you assume that he did, it is quite relevant whether or not the consequences were properly implemented.

[213374U]

Do they storm the plane?

 

It must make the return to UNATCO HQ a bit more...interesting

No, you don't see them storming the plane. But a soldier greets you as soon as you get out and they have the whole terminal bottled tight.

 

Yes, the return is... interesting. As I said, it's fun to try (and a very valid course of action).