jaguars4ever Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 If story was the major defining aspect of a CRPG then Splinter Cell is suddenly an RPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well it certainly won't be today. And maybe not even tommorow. But as I yet to check her schedule, I can't speak for Pandora's tommorow... " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoneWolf16 Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 If story was the major defining aspect of a CRPG then Splinter Cell is suddenly an RPG. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well it certainly won't be today. And maybe not even tommorow. But as I yet to check her schedule, I can't speak for Pandora's tommorow... " <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I...I don't know why that's funny to me. Anyway, I'm going to have to agree with GoA and Alan...what constitutes a CRPG is entirely subjective. Well, maybe not entirely, considering that there are, indeed, base requirements. I had thought that some of nature's journeymen had made men and not made them well, for they imitated humanity so abominably. - Book of Counted Sorrows 'Cause I won't know the man that kills me and I don't know these men I kill but we all wind up on the same side 'cause ain't none of us doin' god's will. - Everlast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 People should remember that Hades (a.k.a Visceris) has been saying trash about how "most games aren't CRPGs" and how "most games suck" for ages. And by ages I mean many years - perhaps 4? Yet each time he goes out and buys the games which he says suck. So before you try having any intellectual discussion with him in the future, keep in mind the fact that he'll never concede your point no matter how correct you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Visc is entertaining, but I understand his points are quite colored, and I take them as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Zelda doesn't have stat-based gameplay, and Nintendo has always classified Zelda as an adventure game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hmm...I don't remember saying that it did. I said it had a narrative structure. I don't see how stats make a game an RPG. True, just about every RPG is stat-based, but I would consider this to be a case of squares being rectangles, but rectangles not necessarily being squares. Similarly, most RPGs are stat-based, but a stat-based game need not be an RPG. What have stats got to do with whether something is a role playing game? Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 The core of a CRPG lies in the ability for the players to roleplay his character within a story, which means multiple dialogue choices and ways to handle quests. Thats the essential part to which all other characteristics are secondary. Diablo, Dungeon Siege etc. are more like computerized version of tabletop games like HeroQuest or Talisman DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 In terms of its qualities, Diablo is more befitting of a console-syle RPG than a CRPG. But one thing's for certain; the scope of "RPG's" is now too broad for everything to be classified under one main genre. Developers need to put more emphasis on the sub-genre of their product in terms of marketing and feedback - e.g. character RPG, tactical RPG, action RPG, JRPG, etc. One would think that "action RPG" would best describe Diablo, but given that Jade Empire is considered an action RPG, the "hack n' slash RPG" really ought to be an official sub-genre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Hmm...I don't remember saying that it did. I said it had a narrative structure. I don't see how stats make a game an RPG. True, just about every RPG is stat-based, but I would consider this to be a case of squares being rectangles, but rectangles not necessarily being squares. Similarly, most RPGs are stat-based, but a stat-based game need not be an RPG. What have stats got to do with whether something is a role playing game? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If stats don't make an RPG, but narrative structure do, then Splinter Cell is an RPG. I've had this arguement a million times, and what it ALWAYS comes down to is that the defining staple of the RPG genre is stat-based gameplay, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Hmm...I don't remember saying that it did. I said it had a narrative structure. I don't see how stats make a game an RPG. True, just about every RPG is stat-based, but I would consider this to be a case of squares being rectangles, but rectangles not necessarily being squares. Similarly, most RPGs are stat-based, but a stat-based game need not be an RPG. What have stats got to do with whether something is a role playing game? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If stats don't make an RPG, but narrative structure do, then Splinter Cell is an RPG. I've had this arguement a million times, and what it ALWAYS comes down to is that the defining staple of the RPG genre is stat-based gameplay, period. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Why? Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fishboot Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 What are we, a bunch of indie rock fans arguing about how to catalogue our toys into genres? That's the perfect model of wasted argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Why? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Orson Scott Card in his how to write Sci-Fi book breaks down the concept of genres and how we define them. Each genre has staples that we expect, genre set-pieces if you will. Westerns aren't westerns if they are not set in the Wild West. RPGs are not RPGs without RPG elements, and if you ask any designer in the industry what RPG elements equate to, it equates to stat-based gameplay. If you really want to be obstinate for the sake of being obstiante, please suggest how we define the RPG genre other than stat based gameplay and I will gladly tell you how it is wrong with clear examples. Go ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Why? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Orson Scott Card in his how to write Sci-Fi book breaks down the concept of genres and how we define them. Each genre has staples that we expect, genre set-pieces if you will. Westerns aren't westerns if they are not set in the Wild West. RPGs are not RPGs without RPG elements, and if you ask any designer in the industry what RPG elements equate to, it equates to stat-based gameplay. If you really want to be obstinate for the sake of being obstiante, please suggest how we define the RPG genre other than stat based gameplay and I will gladly tell you how it is wrong with clear examples. Go ahead. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, westerns aren't westerns if they are not set in the wild west, but is every story set in the wild west automatically a western? Every CRPG is a game on a computer, but does that mean that every game on a computer is a CRPG? And even if every RPG has stats, does that mean that every game with stats is an RPG? An RPG is game where a complex story is the driving factor in the game and the character is intended to be complex person upon whom the story usually focuses. It is also fairly heavy on character interaction. I'll tell you now that I've never played Splinter Cell, hell, I don't even know anything about it beyond it's name, but have you considered that maybe Splinter Cell is an RPG? How about your definition? How does that deal with LARPs, Civil War Reenactments, or something like Slobbovia? Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 If you're arguing that Splinter Cell is an RPG because it has a story then there are two major flaws. 1 - The developer, the publisher and the known world will argue with you. 2 - Your logic now dictates the countless RPGs that don't have a strong story are now no longer RPGs. Feargus is the CEO of a RPG house and he'll tell you Diablo is an RPG because it has stat-based gameplay. We're not talking about my personal definition here, we're talking about the industry standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 If you're arguing that Splinter Cell is an RPG because it has a story then there are two major flaws. 1 - The developer, the publisher and the known world will argue with you. 2 - Your logic now dictates the countless RPGs that don't have a strong story are now no longer RPGs. Feargus is the CEO of a RPG house and he'll tell you Diablo is an RPG because it has stat-based gameplay. We're not talking about my personal definition here, we're talking about the industry standard. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm not. You still haven't answered my question. If an RPG must have stats, then your logic dictates that the countless RPGs that don't have a stats are now no longer RPGs. Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 What RPGs don't have stats? Name a single one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 What RPGs don't have stats? Name a single one. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> A LARP. A Civil War Reenactment. Slobbovia. Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 A LARP is a very different beast from a CRPG so you're really stretching. However, one could argue the defining difference between LARP and improv theatre is the rule system, ie stat-based gameplay. If this so-called LARP has none, then how is it any different from improv theatre? If it fits the definition of improv theatre, but doesn't fit the defintion of a LARP, then it is probably mislabeled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Fishboot Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Westerns aren't westerns if they are not set in the Wild West.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Trying to narrowly parameterize a genre label is pointless fanboy/marketing work. The quoted line above tries to define a type, "A Western" by demanding the ill-defined parameter that it be set, "in the Wild West." The statement is meaningless, since every element of it is poorly defined - if a reader doesn't see how, consider how the "Wild West" is in large part a fictional imaginary construct made up of the painted desert and saloons with swinging doors, and isn't realistically delineateable by hard parameters like dates, or technological and geographical boundaries. Our genre labels exist as a shorthand of some kind of weighted average of a thousand ill-defined parameters which we nigh miraculously achieve near consensus about. Anyway, go ahead with the argument about whether X band's latest album is emocore trance junglebeat or hardcore house emo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 A LARP is a very different beast from a CRPG so you're really stretching. However, one could argue the defining difference between LARP and improv theatre is the rule system, ie stat-based gameplay. If this so-called LARP has none, then how is it any different from improv theatre? If it fits the definition of improv theatre, but doesn't fit the defintion of a LARP, then it is probably mislabeled. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> On the other hand, one could argue that the difference between a LARP and improv theatre is generally an audience. And stat-based gameplay and a rule system aren't the same thing. Diplomacy has rules, but it doesn't have stat-based gameplay. In any case, I named three. You could at least deal with all of them. Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderAndrew Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 The other two are so ridiculous they didn't even merit discussion. Civil war reenactments are not RPGs, and Slobbovia is a strategy game. Next you'll say RISK is also a RPG since you take the role of a country, and Half Life is an RPG since you take the role of Gordon Freeman. You really can't be this dense so I am left to assume you are trolling. Whether you are dense or trolling, either way, I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reveilled Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 The other two are so ridiculous they didn't even merit discussion. Civil war reenactments are not RPGs, and Slobbovia is a strategy game. Next you'll say RISK is also a RPG since you take the role of a country, and Half Life is an RPG since you take the role of Gordon Freeman. You really can't be this dense so I am left to assume you are trolling. Whether you are dense or trolling, either way, I'm done. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> How the fark is Slobbovia a strategy game? It was a roleplay game which in part was set on a diplomacy board that had a single neutral supply centre encircled entirely by impassable mountains! What sort of Strategy game makes it impossible to win and allows new players to join and make up their own countries at any time? I'm not trolling or being dense. You, on the other hand, are clinging to a silly definition of a RPGs that has nothing whatsoever to do with playing a role, and are basing your defense of it on an ad populum fallacy. -- Hey, hold on a minute. What about Paper Mario? That only had "stats" to the same degree as a game like Zelda or an FPS, but it is usually classified as an RPG. Hawk! Eggplant! AWAKEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humodour Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 What RPGs don't have stats? Name a single one. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Half-Life 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkendale Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Roleplaying has two different meanings. One is to imagine/take the role of a character in a story. The other one is what Ender has been saying all this time. Edit - Well, that's what I think. And I don't know very much. " This topic should be re-named 'Ender v.s Revilled - RPG or not' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musopticon? Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Keep on trying. Maybe you'll get funny one day. kirottu said: I was raised by polar bears. I had to fight against blood thirsty wolves and rabid penguins to get my food. Those who were too weak to survive were sent to Sweden. It has made me the man I am today. A man who craves furry hentai. So let us go and embrace the rustling smells of unseen worlds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkendale Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Who? Krezack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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