But the #1 reason that CRPGs aren't dying...

[Lancer]

Pre-generated?  Yes, you were Revan, but you could customize your character as male or female, different ethnicities, and different classes.  How was that any different from Baldurs Gate where you were the Child of Bhaal regardless of whether you wanted to be or not?  Or FO2 where you were the Chosen One regardless?

 

Yes it did. But does Baldur's Gate I follow the other 3 points?

[GhostofAnakin]

I was just wondering, because you made it sound like BG didn't have ANY of those on the list.

 

And personally, I rather prefer the party interaction that the newer games have. That's one of the things they do much better than the older games.

[Lancer]

I was just wondering, because you made it sound like BG didn't have ANY of those on the list.

 

I did actually mis-speak about BG1. It has been many, many years since I played that game.

 

And personally, I rather prefer the party interaction that the newer games have.  That's one of the things they do much better than the older games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree though this is something borrowed from JRPGs.

[Plano Skywalker]

I think the original poster makes a good point: CRPGs have *always* been associated with consoles more than PC. The IE time period was an exception but not necessarily a revolution in this regard.

 

The idea of a cimematic presentation that you have some input in is here to stay....however, this DOES NOT mean that all CRPGs have to be as straightjacketed as the KOTOR games were.

 

We need more sidequests, NPC options, faction options, character customization (including backstory customization) and alternate endings and we don't need as many cinematic cutscreens when we venture off in those areas.

 

Sure, let there be a "main path" where we are guided by the hand and follow the bouncing ball. But let there also be several alternate paths for the hardcore gamer--the hardcore gamer doesn't need as much candy as the masses...he needs more steak and broccoli.

[alanschu]

So you don't care if in the foreseeable future the only RPGs around are linear JRPGS?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Holy slippery slope batman!

 

 

EDIT: I wouldn't be so sure about JRPGs having the "party interaction" so to speak, at least not like KOTOR. In JRPGs, I could never initiate conversation. In games as old as Ultima VI (and perhaps even earlier) I could actually sit down and shoot the ****e with a party member about whatever the heck I wanted.

 

 

In any case, even if this is a JRPG feature, it's by no means a bad one. All CRPGs that have party members should have some sort of party interaction IMO. It's silly not to as far as I'm concerned.

[Musopticon?]

I think the original poster makes a good point: CRPGs have *always* been associated with consoles more than PC.  The IE time period was an exception but not necessarily a revolution in this regard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you, but I have to point out the Gold Box/SSI games. They deserve a mention at least.

 

Anyway; the only way for old-skool rpgers to "survive" in the modern crpg-era is to adapt. By learning to adapt one can dismiss such things as japanisation and console-rpg-influences as unavoidable evolution. If we get to the bottom of things; anything goes as far as it's story and interaction is deep enough.

[alanschu]

I agree.

 

Part of the problem I find is that so many CRPG "fans" seem to so absolutely against any change of any sort that they do more damage than good.

[Musopticon?]

I mean; how many traditional crpgs have we got after the IE golden age? Yep, not much. Traditionalists might as well change genre here and now, or go play p'n'p.

[Guest Fishboot]

What does JRPG even mean anymore? I think the standard FFVI ripoff genre (walking around on pre-rendered or drawn backgrounds, having random encouters with a linear story and ultra-stylized graphics) is dead, and has been for a while, and only a few companies can make entries in the FFVII production value arms race JRPGs - I think it's pretty obvious to everyone that those are really genreless "event" games. The stuff that I've heard about in the last couple of years, like La Pucelle Tactics, amount to very eccentric takes on the RPG genre. I don't think JRPGs are very good CRPG boogeymen anymore - they'll eventually be a niche market catering to weirdo aethestes just like "western" CRPG fans.

[EnderAndrew]

Why do people point as the IE era as the height of PC CRPGs and completely discount the Gold Box series, the Ultima series, the Might and Magic series, the Wizardry series, Rouge/Hack games, etc.

 

Those titles sold millions of copies in a much smaller PC market. PCs weren't in everyone's homes they were today. Those games dominated their market.

[alanschu]

Ultima VII for teh win.

 

A game that got a semi-sequel (Serpent Isle), as well as two expansion packs.

 

 

Not bad at all!

[EnderAndrew]

Very true. Ultima used to be the most successful selling RPG franchise overall. I'm sure EA would tell you that it still is, counting the UO boxes and expansions.

[Musopticon?]

EnderWiggin for teh win!

 

 

 

Anyway; even the motherload of jrpg cliches, FF, isn't the same anymore. The new 12th game will feature a new battle system, and no random encounters. The monsties are visible on the enviroment, and the fighting far more actiony, compared to the "me attack, you attack, enemy attack"-basis of the previous system. The npcs are quite like NWNs henchmen; you order them to react in certain way during battles, and not give them straight orders on the spot. Anywayday; the whole rpg genre evolves as time passes. We shouldn't use tired stereotypes anymore, when comparing e.g jrpgs and crpgs. The genres as they were back in the nineties, don't exist anymore.

[jaguars4ever]

Things like Bioware making the move over to console because that is "where the money is" worries me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It only worries me because that means I'm going to have to purchase these consoles in the near future.

You bought the Jade-Box too, Ghostie? ^_^

[alanschu]

Unfortunately, EA didn't do a whole lot of justice to the franchise (or to Origin) with Ultima 8 and Ultima 9

[EnderAndrew]

I have been a fan of western CRPGs and JRPGs alike. I'm really not looking forward to FFXII however.

 

FFX had a really original plot, a neat world, and some neat characters. FFXII is recycling Ivalice as a world, a really cliche plot, really cliche characters, and dumping the battle system at the same time.

 

Everything is telling me this game will be insanely popular in Japan and bomb in the US.

[Musopticon?]

Sadly; you're probably right.

[Guest Fishboot]

I have been a fan of western CRPGs and JRPGs alike.  I'm really not looking forward to FFXII however.

 

FFX had a really original plot, a neat world, and some neat characters.  FFXII is recycling Ivalice as a world, a really cliche plot, really cliche characters, and dumping the battle system at the same time.

 

Everything is telling me this game will be insanely popular in Japan and bomb in the US.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dunno. The FF layoff since X has been considerable, and as far as I know relatively few US folks bothered with the MMORPG - absence makes the heart grow fonder. It's nice to see those ridiculously beautiful Squeenix FMVs from time to time.

[EnderAndrew]

Personally, I'm looking forward to Kingdom Hearts II moreso, and Sqaure-Enix has the new Dragon Warrior, and some new RPG franchises as well.

[Lancer]

EDIT:  I wouldn't be so sure about JRPGs having the "party interaction" so to speak, at least not like KOTOR.  In JRPGs, I could never initiate conversation.  In games as old as Ultima VI (and perhaps even earlier) I could actually sit down and shoot the ****e with a party member about whatever the heck I wanted.

 

 

In any case, even if this is a JRPG feature, it's by no means a bad one.  All CRPGs that have party members should have some sort of party interaction IMO.  It's silly not to as far as I'm concerned.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

By the nature of the beast, the party interaction style of a cRPG has to be different from the party interaction style of a console RPG. A typical cRPG is all about choices and in theory more non-linear play than a JRPG... As KOTOR was designed to appeal to both console and computer RPGers it needlessly had to have elements of both. However, the obvious similarities are there...

 

Whereas PC games before (with the notable exception of Ultima VII part II: Serpent Isle) for all practical purposes almost completely ignored any substantial party interaction, this has been a mainstay in JRPGS since well the 8 bit days.

 

And I never said that "party interaction" was a bad thing. Quite the contrary, I think this is something that PC RPGS should have been doing all along.. Especially since many PnP campaigns have always featured such party interaction well before cRPGS finally caught on. It is about time, IMHO, since cRPGS supposedly have always been designed with an eye towards recreating the tabletop game on to the computer.

 

EDIT: Who knows? Maybe there would be more JRPG players that would also play cRPGS had the party interaction concept been established in cRPGs from the get-go.

[Musopticon?]

All too true.

[EnderAndrew]

I think JRPGs have tons of party interaction and dialogue, but it is quite linear and cinematic. I don't feel like I am driving it in the way I do with western RPGs.

[Lancer]

I think JRPGs have tons of party interaction and dialogue, but it is quite linear and cinematic.  I don't feel like I am driving it in the way I do with western RPGs.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes and that is the main difference regarding party interaction between a modern cRPG like PS:T or Arcanum (ok, maybe not so modern anymore) and a modern JRPG like the FFs or Xenosaga.

 

cRPGS modify it to fit in with its more non-linear gameplay but the party interaction concept was still inspired by JRPGS.

[alanschu]

I have a feeling it would have happened regardless of whether or not JRPGs even existed.

[EnderAndrew]

When you guys use the term CRPGs, are you referring to Console-RPGs or Computer-RPGs?

 

I've seen the term used both ways.