Speculation on the Jedi Masters

[darthbass123]

Remember that at one point the female (Leia) was the hero of the original star wars

[DeathScepter]

I do think both Revan and Exile are really guys.

 

 

Revan: Charming sacrastic bastard that can make anyone follow him.

 

Exile: **** with a heart of gold.

 

 

that is what I do see Revan and Exile.

 

 

 

I am more partial to Revan myself.

[darknesslord]

that could be said for female revan too : charming sarcastic bitch who can make anyone follow her

[darthbass123]

that could be said for female revan too : charming sarcastic bitch who can make anyone follow her 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With a little..... u know what.... (w00t) (w00t) :"> :"> "

[darknesslord]

that could be said for female revan too : charming sarcastic bitch who can make anyone follow her 

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With a little..... u know what.... (w00t) (w00t) :"> :"> "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

little?? (w00t)

[Jediphile]

The various judicial systems of the world make decisions like this every day. My right to determine my own destiny stops when I start harming other people. Yes, showing up with an invincible armada to take over the known galaxy does count as "harming other people"!   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the view you express is woefully incorrect, unless you're joking. Rights only matter when the time comes to test them. Just because someone did horrible things does not make it acceptable to do similar in return. Or am I to assume that Hitler should have been sent to the gaschamber if captured, or that Saddam Hussein should be executed by the same biological weapons he used himself? No, you don't respond in kind in such cases. If you did, then you admit that you're no better than the person you seek to judge. But yes, you have put your finger on where the masters went wrong - they made themselves almost as guilty as Revan himself by doing to him what he would have done to others... I sense the dark side beckoning...

 

I thought we were talking about the council possibly restoring Revan's lost memories instead of trying to trick him into revealing the Star Forge's location. That was the only other way to find it's location that I can see. It's a bit much to think that a fully restored Revan would act the same way he did on Taris.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Better than risk his memories coming back while searching through the galaxy with only young, inexperienced Bastila to handle the situation? It's a big risk no matter how you look at it. Interestingly the masters did not choose the more ethical option.

 

Imagine your on the council for a minute. Bastila has reported the proceedings on Taris and given the "new" Revan a glowing recommendation. Your first question is how much of that "do-goodiness" is programmed into you and how much is genuine? Since there's no way to know the answer to that, and since millions of lives are hanging in the balance, I tend to give the K1 council a little slack.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I really don't see sending Revan off into the galaxy with only young, little Bastila as "guard" to sort it out if Revan's memories suddenly returned... Oh, they sent Juhani along... Still, she had just turned to the dark side

 

And she only comes along if Revan turns her back to the light side, yet that good act gains him no credit or trust...

[Jediphile]

They're both females! Damn George and his sexist Star Wars universe. Women can be equally heroic or evil just like the guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but I think that we will see that soon in Jedi Raider - the adventures of Crara Loft :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When's it due?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As Obsidian would say - SOON! :D

[master_pendrak]

see i always saw it as....

 

Revan female tried to seduce Exile to join her, possibly replace Malak and we have a Vader/Luke with Palps or Anakin/Dooku with Palps scene happen between Malak/Exile and Revan. Exile escapes after cutting of Malaks jaw and we jump to the end of K2 where Exile heads into the unknown. And finds the Sith threat is infact being lead by Revan. Carth arrives and is torn between destroying the Sith completly or trying to save the women he loves. So Exile boards Revans ship to try and turn her. It doesnt work and we have a Exile vs Revan and just as Exile is about to deal the final blow to a beaten Revan lying on her back. Carth arrives just in time, seeing what is about to happen he shoots the Exile in the back. Exile's crew arrives and see's the scene before them, Mira rushes to Exile's side and Bao and Atton turn on Carth killing him in a rage.

 

and im happy because Carth gets a long awaited death that ive been praying for, Exile probably survives and Revan finaly turns back to the Light but is already mortally wounded and sadly dies.

[darknesslord]

as far as I hate theory about kotor3, this one is great, I hate carth too

[darthbass123]

Why do you hate Carth. I thought he was a great character.

[Jediphile]

"Oh my God - they killed Carth!"

 

"The b......!"

[master_pendrak]

Carth whines like a bitch, he wont stfu saying down you go, he is too moral, he is anti-jedi and has issues. Infact i'd love to be his shrink, i bet his shrink makes thousands out of him.

[darthbass123]

carth would make a great jedi knight.

[GhostofAnakin]

I liked Carth.

 

In all honesty there wasn't any of the NPC's that annoyed me. I was able to see something interesting in all their personalities and backstories.

[BattleCookiee]

Seems like we are heading down a different path.

Let's seek the LS one again ans stay On-Topic, OK?

[master_pendrak]

there was a thread about who we liked disliked etc i have my list there, still Carth sucks hanharrs wookiee bum fluff!!!

[DAWUSS]

I think female Exile works better especially since Sion has more of a reason to fall apart: He loves her (if you pay attention he admits this). That and every other hero of the Jedi has been a male.

 

 

Anyway, back on topic, I think they hated the Exile because they were wrong and she was right and they couldn't admit it

[master_pendrak]

if ur a guy it works well too Sion finaly dies because you persuade him to realise Kreia values Exile over Sion because Exile can live without the force and survive. He shows strength and self reliance where as Sion is nothing without the force. After all Kreia only wanted to train someone to be as powerful and successful as Revan.

 

fear and arrogance stopped them from letting go of their pride and examining your actions and how they effected you and others.

[DAWUSS]

And not everyone can live without the Force. Take it away from, say, Darth Nihilus, for example, he wouldn't survive anymore. Take it away from Sion he'd've been dead long ago. Take it away from Palpatine, he'd've been dead a lot sooner too because he wouldn't be able to jump from clone to clone.

 

I think that the Big 3 couldn't live without the Force, and when they were killed, they were also stripped of the Force, and that's possibly what killed them

[Lord Kil]

The various judicial systems of the world make decisions like this every day. My right to determine my own destiny stops when I start harming other people. Yes, showing up with an invincible armada to take over the known galaxy does count as "harming other people"!   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the view you express is woefully incorrect, unless you're joking. Rights only matter when the time comes to test them. Just because someone did horrible things does not make it acceptable to do similar in return. Or am I to assume that Hitler should have been sent to the gaschamber if captured, or that Saddam Hussein should be executed by the same biological weapons he used himself? No, you don't respond in kind in such cases. If you did, then you admit that you're no better than the person you seek to judge. But yes, you have put your finger on where the masters went wrong - they made themselves almost as guilty as Revan himself by doing to him what he would have done to others... I sense the dark side beckoning...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well in this case "responding in kind" means they would kill Revan. In their minds, allowing him to live on as a simple soldier is more merciful than killing him. Same deal with Hitler and Saddam, I would advocate execution, but not by the means they used. We are the good guys, and we don't torture. We do have the obligation and the right to judge them for their crimes though.

 

As far as why they sent him off with Bastila, they seem to think highly of her abilities. Remember she was the leader of the strike team sent to capture him in the first place. Also she is the only one who can reach into his mind to pull out the star map visions.

[Jediphile]

Well in this case "responding in kind" means they would kill Revan. In their minds, allowing him to live on as a simple soldier is more merciful than killing him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Being forced into being a puppet soldier is a more cruel than downright execution. If that is why the masters did it, then they are truly inhuman and their claims of morality and ethics is just hypocrisy of the worst form.

 

Same deal with Hitler and Saddam, I would advocate execution, but not by the means they used. We are the good guys, and we don't  torture. We do have the obligation and the right to judge them for their crimes though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Precisely - you don't just return the favor. And by hiding the truth from Revan, they pretty much admitted that they didn't believe in rehabilitation. If they don't, then they should just condemn him and have him executed. That would be more merciful and ethical.

 

As far as why they sent him off with Bastila, they seem to think highly of her abilities. Remember she was the leader of the strike team sent to capture him in the first place. Also she is the only one who can reach into his mind to pull out the star map visions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not certain she was the leader of that strike team - I always thought she was just part of it. I could be wrong, though.

 

Either way, I don't think that's the reason they sent her along. As she says herself, they didn't have any other choice - Bastila had already formed the bond with Revan, and that was their one way to to find the StarForge. If they were going to use it to their advantage, then they would have to keep the two together. And they didn't send any masters along because they would have been sensed to easily by the Sith.

[Dark Moth]

1.  Being forced into being a puppet soldier is a more cruel than downright execution. If that is why the masters did it, then they are truly inhuman and their claims of morality and ethics is just hypocrisy of the worst form.

 

2.  Precisely - you don't just return the favor. And by hiding the truth from Revan, they pretty much admitted that they didn't believe in rehabilitation. If they don't, then they should just condemn him and have him executed. That would be more merciful and ethical.

 

3.  I'm not certain she was the leader of that strike team - I always thought she was just part of it. I could be wrong, though.

 

Either way, I don't think that's the reason they sent her along. As she says herself, they didn't have any other choice - Bastila had already formed the bond with Revan, and that was their one way to to find the StarForge. If they were going to use it to their advantage, then they would have to keep the two together. And they didn't send any masters along because they would have been sensed to easily by the Sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. What else could they have done? Killed him (which goes against their beliefs), and then all would have been lost, or do the only thing that had a chance of saving them? And death is the end of your physical life, at least by doing what they did they gave him a second chance. The point is, Jediphile, you don't realize that they had no other choice. And you can't say they could have told Revan (at least during the game), because the chances were far too great. If Revan refused to cooperate, then all would have been lost. And they were especially justified if your Revan was DS in the game. If anything, what they did was less cruel than death. And as I said, the only reason they did it was because they had no other choice, whereas the Sith would do that just because they could.

 

2. As I said above, they had a damn good reason to hide the truth from him, at least for the time. And they did believe in rehabilitation, because they also gave him a second chance in doing what they did. They could have tried to punish him after K1 for all the crimes he did as Sith Lord, but they didn't. Besides, would you just let Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein get away with their crimes? If someone commits heinous crimes against humanity, then you do of course administer justice to them. I would expect them to do the same to Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein. Of course, you don't commit the same kinds of barbaric acts they do, but there are other ways to administer justice. What the Jedi council did was better than death. And besides, we know Revan eventually gets more of his memories back, anyway.

 

3. Yes, she was the leader of it. She says so in the game. Unfortunately, I don't have a quote right now.

And Bastila was indeed a capable Jedi in her own right. She wasn't as powerful as Revan, but she was very gifted in the force and was able to master the art of Battle Meditation quickly.

 

I'm not saying what the council did would be fine in any situation, I only think it's justified because there was no other alternative, and that's why they did it. And I don't think they even did it for punishment, either. They did it simply because it was there one chance of ending the war.

Edited August 12, 2005 by Mothman

[DAWUSS]

The Jedi Masters had to do something as punishment, and since they "never kill anyone", they had to do something like that which would justify their reason for punishment

[Jediphile]

1.  What else could they have done?  Killed him (which goes against their beliefs), and then all would have been lost, or do the only thing that had a chance of saving them?  And death is the end of your physical life, at least by doing what they did they gave him a second chance.  The point is, Jediphile, you don't realize that they had no other choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

To quote the Babylon 5 episode "Point of No Return":

 

"There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision we have already made".

 

 

And you can't say they could have told Revan (at least during the game), because the chances were far too great.  If Revan refused to cooperate, then all would have been lost.  And they were especially justified if your Revan was DS in the game.  If anything, what they did was less cruel than death.  And as I said, the only reason they did it was because they had no other choice, whereas the Sith would do that just because they could. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Let's look at the other way around - the Sith capture a jedi, reprogram his mind and then use him to destroy the Republic and the jedi order, all under the pretense that he is one of the apprentices of the great sith lords. Is this cruel? It can only be so if one assumes a narrow perspective of black-and-white, where the good guys are always right and the bad guys are always wrong, and so you don't have to look at the annoying inconvenience of actually subjecting the choices of both sides to moral and ethical standards. Now, I know that Star Wars is *very* black-and-white to say the least, but it's not like that in the real world. I don't mind that this was done - it makes Star Wars richer that they dare let the masters pull a dirty little secret, but if it quacks like a duck... It's so much that the masters decided to do it, it's that they try to suggest that they are not responsible for it with comments of how it was necessary and how it was the only choice... No, it wasn't, and they're not fit to be masters if they won't accept the responsibility of their choice! The fact alone that Malak is hellbent on getting rid of Bastila tells us that the Republic is still alive and kicking - if the Republic was doomed, then Malak really wouldn't see her as a potential threat.

 

2.  As I said above, they had a damn good reason to hide the truth from him, at least for the time.  And they did believe in rehabilitation, because they also gave him a second chance in doing what they did.  They could have tried to punish him after K1 for all the crimes he did as Sith Lord, but they didn't.  Besides, would you just let Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein get away with their crimes?  If someone commits heinous crimes against humanity, then you do of course administer justice to them.  I would expect them to do the same to Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein.  Of course, you don't commit the same kinds of barbaric acts they do, but there are other ways to administer justice.  What the Jedi council did was better than death.  And besides, we know Revan eventually gets more of his memories back, anyway. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem with "crimes against humanity" is who gets to decide that they are crimes? I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Saddam Hussein (at least *I* didn't bring Bin Laden into this...). What you're suggesting is that if had a method of forcing Saddam Hussein into revealing things about his own people and even using him as a soldier against them, then that is quite alright to do. But who gets to make that choice and on what moral basis? Taking away the rights of the individual is one of the worst things you can do to someone, and most people would rather kill than have it done to them. But not only did they do it to Revan, they also wouldn't entrust him with the truth even *after* he had saved Bastila, helped find the first starmap, etc. Even if you play him as strict LS (which I did the first time), they still won't trust him with the truth. Instead Revan discovers the truth as he travels the galaxy. Now tell me, which is the better time for Revan to discover this - at the enclave where the masters are still present to explain and defend their choice or when Revan is standing right face to face with Malak? I'd say the latter is far more dangerous given the situation. They let Revan go knowing that his past might resurface (since that is what he is using to find the starmaps) and they still won't tell him the truth? If discovered during the quest - as it was - the danger grows much greater that Revan will slip back to the DS of out pure defiance and revenge against their manipulation. So it's not just morally questionable for the masters to do - it's also strategically stupid.

 

3.  Yes, she was the leader of it.  She says so in the game.  Unfortunately, I don't have a quote right now. 

And Bastila was indeed a capable Jedi in her own right.  She wasn't as powerful as Revan, but she was very gifted in the force and was able to master the art of Battle Meditation quickly. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

She joined as a 4th level jedi sentinel...

 

Even the masters say that she is young and inexperienced.

 

I'm not saying what the council did would be fine in any situation, I only think it's justified because there was no other alternative, and that's why they did it.  And I don't think they even did it for punishment, either.  They did it simply because it was there one chance of ending the war.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There are always alternatives. And it would have been a more compelling argument for the masters to claim there was no other choice if they didn't themselves just sent Revan and Bastila off and then promptly returned to sitting around on Dantooine waiting for Malak to destroy them...

[Dark Moth]

1.  To quote the Babylon 5 episode "Point of No Return":

 

"There is always choice. We say there is no choice only to comfort ourselves with a decision we have already made".

 

 

2.  Let's look at the other way around - the Sith capture a jedi, reprogram his mind and then use him to destroy the Republic and the jedi order, all under the pretense that he is one of the apprentices of the great sith lords. Is this cruel? It can only be so if one assumes a narrow perspective of black-and-white, where the good guys are always right and the bad guys are always wrong, and so you don't have to look at the annoying inconvenience of actually subjecting the choices of both sides to moral and ethical standards. Now, I know that Star Wars is *very* black-and-white to say the least, but it's not like that in the real world. I don't mind that this was done - it makes Star Wars richer that they dare let the masters pull a dirty little secret, but if it quacks like a duck... It's so much that the masters decided to do it, it's that they try to suggest that they are not responsible for it with comments of how it was necessary and how it was the only choice... No, it wasn't, and they're not fit to be masters if they won't accept the responsibility of their choice! The fact alone that Malak is hellbent on getting rid of Bastila tells us that the Republic is still alive and kicking - if the Republic was doomed, then Malak really wouldn't see her as a potential threat.

 

3.  The problem with "crimes against humanity" is who gets to decide that they are crimes? I knew I shouldn't have mentioned Saddam Hussein (at least *I* didn't bring Bin Laden into this...). What you're suggesting is that if had a method of forcing Saddam Hussein into revealing things about his own people and even using him as a soldier against them, then that is quite alright to do. But who gets to make that choice and on what moral basis? Taking away the rights of the individual is one of the worst things you can do to someone, and most people would rather kill than have it done to them. But not only did they do it to Revan, they also wouldn't entrust him with the truth even *after* he had saved Bastila, helped find the first starmap, etc. Even if you play him as strict LS (which I did the first time), they still won't trust him with the truth. Instead Revan discovers the truth as he travels the galaxy. Now tell me, which is the better time for Revan to discover this - at the enclave where the masters are still present to explain and defend their choice or when Revan is standing right face to face with Malak? I'd say the latter is far more dangerous given the situation. They let Revan go knowing that his past might resurface (since that is what he is using to find the starmaps) and they still won't tell him the truth? If discovered during the quest - as it was - the danger grows much greater that Revan will slip back to the DS of out pure defiance and revenge against their manipulation. So it's not just morally questionable for the masters to do - it's also strategically stupid.

 

 

4.  She joined as a 4th level jedi sentinel... 

 

Even the masters say that she is young and inexperienced.

 

5.  There are always alternatives. And it would have been a more compelling argument for the masters to claim there was no other choice if they didn't themselves just sent Revan and Bastila off and then promptly returned to sitting around on Dantooine waiting for Malak to destroy them... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1. If you can think of another plan, fire away. Otherwise, do not just use quotes like that to try to make your point. My point is, that while there may have been another far-fetched option, there really was no other that they could have done on the spur of the moment that presented itself. There really was no other way.

 

2. Your problem is that you see things entirely in gray and refuse to acknowledge that black and white even exist. Don't forget: black and white have to exist for there to be gray. Of course it's unjustified, because the Sith are only doing that to accomplish goals of destruction and power-gain for their own ends. The Jedi did that to save lives and stop a war, not for their own selfish ambition, as the Sith in your example did. Unless you call saving lives a selfish ambition. Bastila was at that time the crutch the Republic was leaning on at the time. Malak realized this and wanted to destroy that crutch. And if you even bothered to listen to the game, you would know that they were still able to hold their own, but Malak would have defeated them eventually out of sheer numbers.

 

3. So you wouldn't call killing thousands (or in the game, millions) of innocent people a crime? Wow. You really do see all in gray. Sure you can't always say what a crime is and what isn't, but for crying out loud in many cases you can! As for not telling Revan, so you would just tell him right away then he refuses to help them and goes off and reclaims his mantle right away? Your example is far from convincing.

 

4. Now you're confusing the storyline with the actual game itself. Don't forget, this is a game, and of course they wouldn't give Bastila to you as a level 20 or even a level 10 Jedi sentinal. It's called gameplay and stat-building, my friend. And young and inexperienced doesn't always equal incapable. Revan was also young and inexperienced when he went off to fight the Mandalorian wars. The only thing that saved him was his ability to make sacrifices and his gift of strategy. And, of course, he was strong naturally powerful in the force. But of course, we all know that Revan fell to the darkside anyway.

 

5. Did you even listen to the game? They couldn't have Bastila running around with Jedi Masters, it would attract too much attention. And it's not as if the Masters sit around drinking tea all day. And if you knew anything about the military, the high-ranking officers and Genrals usually are the ones who are needed in other places OTHER than combat. Their skills are needed behind the front lines, not out on the field. This situation is very similar. As I said, they had no other choice. They were justified.

Edited August 12, 2005 by Mothman