Speculation on the Jedi Masters

[Jediphile]

One reason is probably that the deadline was approaching. Remember that the verdict of the masters comes right at the time where the plot begins going downhill in most people's opinions.

 

It's not even that the masters' decision is even that horrible - it is understandable to an extent, after all. The problem is that it's just badly written. While Vrook would not hesitate for a second to condemn you, it makes no sense that they all do so, especially not Zez-Kai Ell.

 

As Kreia says: "He has brought truth, and you condemn it? The arrogance!"

 

For Zez-Kai Ell, this is an utter contradiction of what he told you about how he left the jedi because they would not reevaluate their own principles and teachings, and yet he now blindly stands behind the decision to sever the Exile from the force. That doesn't add up.

 

It is far more important to stress in this situation that the masters reach the decision they do, because the wound the Exile has brought to the force is too dangerous, since it could destroy the force and, perhaps all life with it, while Kreia doesn't care, because she hates the force and is perfectly willing to take that risk. But that is never pointed out, and the masters don't even give the Exile a choice to voice his own take on the matter - they don't even allow the condemned to make a comment on their sentense...

 

Bad storytelling there, I think...

 

It would have been far more moving if Kavar and especially Zez-Kai Ell had been show to have genuine regret and sorrow about the decision, and yet know that they had to do it anyway...

 

If you're playing LS, you could even have a sequence where the Exile accepts the sentense willingly only to have Kreia enter and stop it by killing the masters, thereby robbing you of ending the danger you present to the force, since she just won't let you take that option, and so imposes her goal on you over your own choice.

[DAWUSS]

I honestly thought Vrook made the other two join him in the decision to banish the Exile once more... Like I had mentioned eariler, I honestly think they had become tainted by the Dark Side in some way shape or form...

[Grant Dempsey]

Well, personally, I don't really like the idea that the Jedi Masters had fallen to the Dark Side of the Force. All that would do is further promote an "everyone is either good (true Jedi) or evil (true Sith) and nothing else" point of view, which would appear to be the opposite of what this game was trying to convey otherwise. I just think it was more interesting that the Jedi Masters really were Jedi Masters (as opposed to "Dark Jedi"), but that that still neither made them automatically "right" somehow nor made them infallible.

[Master_Vrook]

Zez-Kai Ell was always very compassionate and understanding, I was sad to see him go especially.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed. In fact, I kind of like Kavar as well. He was a strategist and understood the need to sacrifice in war, but he didn't do it without regret. At least that's my take on him.

 

It's too bad that the ending with the masters is so forced, since both Zez-Kai Ell and Kavar seem to have suddenly lost all the traits that humanized them and made them likable.

 

Vrook, of course, remains the same old grumpy, lovable fool that he always was :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I feel the same way, I just wish there was some way to update the game and tack on everything they might have ever wished to be in there. There isn't a chance that can happen anymore as when another sequel is made they will all look at how they are in the game instead of what they were supposed to be. The game sort of guides you through a path for about an hour while skipping all sorts of rational explanations and your encounters with the Sith Lords are a little forced.

[darthbass123]

they kind have to be forced or you wouldn't have a game.

[Lord Kil]

Only it's not their choice to make. Again, how many people is it okay to sacrifice for the greater good? The answer is none. The only one who could morally have made that choice was the individual himself - Revan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The various judicial systems of the world make decisions like this every day. My right to determine my own destiny stops when I start harming other people. Yes, showing up with an invincible armada to take over the known galaxy does count as "harming other people"!

 

He was a different person from his experiences on Taris, and if you had played him as LS, he might even have gone along with the sacrifice they put him through. But they didn't. They didn't ask Bastila whether he had changed - or if they did they, it certainly had little or no influence on their use of him - and they didn't ask his companions. That doesn't paint a very nice picture of their motives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought we were talking about the council possibly restoring Revan's lost memories instead of trying to trick him into revealing the Star Forge's location. That was the only other way to find it's location that I can see. It's a bit much to think that a fully restored Revan would act the same way he did on Taris.

 

Imagine your on the council for a minute. Bastila has reported the proceedings on Taris and given the "new" Revan a glowing recommendation. Your first question is how much of that "do-goodiness" is programmed into you and how much is genuine? Since there's no way to know the answer to that, and since millions of lives are hanging in the balance, I tend to give the K1 council a little slack.

[Lord Satasn]

The Jedi are for all intensive purposes the "good" guys yet they have many faults which can be considered, not really evil, but bad. One of these is their crypticness they keep and withhold information to suit their own ends in some situations.

 

e.g - K1 they never tell Revan that she has been mind wiped. Which is understandable offcourse, but yet still wrong. Perhaps had they told Revan what had happened and helped her try to remember things then maybe with their guidance they could have located the starforge earlier. In K2 they never tell the Exile why and what happened to him at Malachor V, although they may not have had a clear picture themselves. They still knew information which could have helped save them from the Sith attacks through the force. Had they told Exile he may have been able to aid them in their fight with the Sith. Instead they keep that info to themselves and exile him.

 

But somehow the Sith are branded as completly evil, well Jedi banish and exclude anyone who doesnt stay to their code. So the Sith started their own order and the Jedi find it to be "wrong" because it is the opposite of their own code and order. And one can argue Sith are fueled by hatred and anger which is wrong, but human and honest. When someone is angry its an honest emotion that blazes brightly for someone to see. Their motives are honest and cleanly set infront of everyone. Which is more than can be said for the Jedi who withhold information and become cryptic over issues when it suits them.

 

Because Revan fell to the darkside doesnt make her a bad person or evil person. Infact falling could be a bigger benefit to the galaxy as a whole, as Kreia put it the Republic had become complacent unchallenged for too long. Thanks to Revan many died yes, but many grew stronger for it. The mandalorians weakened the Republic and Revan struck them when they were already fragile, but the Republic strengthened from it. People strengthened from it and the galaxy had suffered, but from suffering comes strength. What doesnt kill us only makes us stronger.

 

 

I have to admit my comment above was plain and bland and as you put it mothman, hardly compelling. But it wasn't meant to be in depth or superiorly explanatory about good and evil, we all know in our minds what we think is good and what is evil. And i think that stems to the Star Wars universe too, each Jedi is individuel yet the same. All have different views on good or bad and that goes for the Sith too. Just look at Revan and Malak they felt helping people fight was good, the masters felt that it was bad. Both views were wrong yet correct, by fighting they saved more lives but also gave opportunity to fall to the darkside.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Also, you have commited another evil act by assuming Revan was a.....*shudders*...WOMAN!

[master_pendrak]

lol yeah i always picture Revan a woman, the character of Revan suits a woman more than a man in my opinion as Exile fits a man more than a woman lol

 

and im a guy too!

[GhostofAnakin]

lol yeah i always picture Revan a woman, the character of Revan suits a woman more than a man in my opinion as Exile fits a man more than a woman lol

 

and im a guy too!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Both are better suited as males. "

[master_pendrak]

i dunno i always think Revan as female and Exile male, im writing a fanfic atm which has this setting and the end is decided mainly on the fact Revan is female.

[GhostofAnakin]

Revan sucks as a female mainly because the main romance option in the game (Bastila) is MUCH more deeply written and fleshed out. If Revan is female, then Bastila becomes all but obsolete, which isn't the case.

[darknesslord]

I prefer to think of revan as a female and the exile as a male, and I dont love either romance anyway, carth could die for all I care

[master_pendrak]

a female Revan would be different therefor interesting considering every Sith Lord has been male except Atris and Kreia. It would be cool if Carth was leading a warfleet against the Sith only to find its Revan(female) leading the Sith. Also Revan wears a skirt thingy, and for a male Sith Lord to wear that in my book is just wrong and un-Sith like!

 

love stories between characters in the games mean nothing really, same as being LS or DS it means nothing. Because in the end they changed it, in K2 it seems as if everyone thinks Revan is LS at the end of K1. Which just knocks the DS ending out the window because it isn't considered. Same during K2 Exile is considered as a rather neutral/grey rather than LS or DS.

 

Bastilla and Carth sucked anyway, Bastilla was all dry and false if you ask me and Carth was a whiney bitch.

[Jediphile]

Imagine your on the council for a minute. Bastila has reported the proceedings on Taris and given the "new" Revan a glowing recommendation. Your first question is how much of that "do-goodiness" is programmed into you and how much is genuine? Since there's no way to know the answer to that, and since millions of lives are hanging in the balance, I tend to give the K1 council a little slack.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I'd give them the slack, but the fact remains that they used Revan as a tool when it suited their purposes. If it turns out that Revan was planning this actions toward the greater threat of opposing the true Sith, then the masters are scarcely in a position to point fingers. Besides, using and manipulating people is not a trait of the light side... But I could accept it if the masters acknowledged their responsibility after the fact and admitted that their actions were dictated by necessity and that making the moral choice was too risky. The point there is that they don't try to sweep the choice under the carpet as if it was okay just on the basis of being necssary - it might have been, but you don't run away from the responsibility afterwards, not if you're a jedi master and try to set a higher moral standard for others to follow. And take a look at Vrook in K2 - does he strike you with his comments about Revan, even if I set Revan to LS, as someone who is humbled because he took part in a dirty little jedi secret and used Revan against his will? Not my impression...

[DAWUSS]

I say Revan is a man and the Exile is a woman. So, bah!

 

 

I think the Jedi Masters would have made matters worse by cutting off the Exile from the Force, and also, wasn't it the Exile who cut herself off from the Force, with fear and without realization? I think Kreia makes that comment that you cut yourself off from it and not them. If that's true, then they wouldn't have been able to do anyting, and if they did, the Exile would have found a way to reconnect with the Force, as she had done before on Peragus

[metadigital]

lol yeah i always picture Revan a woman, the character of Revan suits a woman more than a man in my opinion as Exile fits a man more than a woman lol

 

and im a guy too!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both are better suited as males. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong.

 

*End of Thread*

[GhostofAnakin]

lol yeah i always picture Revan a woman, the character of Revan suits a woman more than a man in my opinion as Exile fits a man more than a woman lol

 

and im a guy too!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Both are better suited as males. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong.

 

*End of Thread*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right.

 

*End of Forum Discussion*

[Gabrielle]

They're both females! Damn George and his sexist Star Wars universe. Women can be equally heroic or evil just like the guys.

[Jediphile]

They're both females! Damn George and his sexist Star Wars universe. Women can be equally heroic or evil just like the guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, but I think that we will see that soon in Jedi Raider - the adventures of Crara Loft :D

[Gabrielle]

Cool.

[master_pendrak]

Revan has to be a woman, im tired of cutting guys who sound like they smoke 50 a day with my lightsaber lol. And Exile has to be a guy because it would spark a great KOTOR3 storyline.

[Laozi]

Well the Exile is indeed a woman, that how she managed to nag Sion to death, a man doesn't have that sort of power.

 

As for Revan, he has to be a guy, because you have to win the race on Taris, not place third and then pose in Maxim

[master_pendrak]

rofl.....nice views you got there:D

[darthbass123]

what does this have to do with the jedi masters?

[metadigital]

They're both females! Damn George and his sexist Star Wars universe. Women can be equally heroic or evil just like the guys.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, but I think that we will see that soon in Jedi Raider - the adventures of Crara Loft :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When's it due?