metadigital Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 ... even Borringwind ... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> GOLD OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llyranor Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 It's fair to say that gameplay prevails over story in some circumstances. As you say, they're games, right? Gameplay should be king. The trouble when the principle is applied to ALL games. THAT's when game stories suffer. Games have the potential to tell better stories than novels, by the very nature of the medium - it just HASN'T BEEN DONE. Gameplay can be used to immerse the player more, to make him/her feel more strongly about the story. The problem is that in most games it often does the opposite. (Approved by Fio, so feel free to use it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted July 24, 2005 Share Posted July 24, 2005 I have no reservations about agreeing with you on this point. A great novel must find a way to compel the reader to invest his feelings in the main character. A player usually invests that feeling during character creation. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 I would extend the definition of "character creation" to include all the defining moments of a character's creation, including key ethical decisions and even and especially mistakes made during their "lifetime". All of these aspects help the player to identify with their avatar, their alter idem. I also can envisage Llyranor's point where it might be necessary to place story integrity over gameplay "fun". After all, the frustration of almost being able to do something can be a good build up to being able to do it, as long as it is handled in a reasonable way. (I'm struggling for a good example, maybe have to come back later with one. ) OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 "I think a big problem with gaming (I refer mostly to RPGs) and their stories is because it's all so segmented. After all, the devs have to cater to both gameplay and story, often reinforcing the former to the detriment of the latter (which is especially bad when the former is tedious and dull). They cut the game in arbitrary sections, following obsolete gaming conventions that SHOULDN'T still be followed." is not really arbitrary sections. you got the level boss mentality working in most games... and a story can be developed well 'nuff this way. heck, you can go backs to beowulf and use as a blueprint for level boss game story. 'course, one s'poses that part o' the problem is in how a person defines story. some folks (folks who thinks the silmarillion and the prose eddas is height o' story telling,) seem content to have plot drive story... almost to exclusion o' all else. other folks thinks character development is what counts.... and for these folks, the main character can dig a hole in his backyard for 400 pages and such a book might be worthy of a pulitzer. personally, we cares more for character development, 'specially in fantasy where in plot will inevitably be kinda inane, but is not like we ignore plot neither. however, we has seen that some developers got this preoccupation with plot as story.... read the dialogue they create for their characters. *groan* is more than a few disabled developers out there who somehow has been given the task of writing dialogues and developing characters in games. crpgs got some limitations as far as making good plot "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted July 25, 2005 Share Posted July 25, 2005 Can't argue with that. I agree character development is imperative: after all, that's the best way to inveigle the player into the game world, isn't it? Co-opt the player into the character development, via ethical choices? Seems pretty straight forward, to me: an Open Mis OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 You guys might want to take a peek at the demo for Farenheit/Indigo Prophecy. It's an adventure game, that definitely seems to be story first. It has a simple intuitive interface and was quite simple to play. The demo was quite short in actual length of the story, but it is lengthend by the fact that there's a whole bunch of different things you can do in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I'm off to play System Shock I and II ... OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarkon Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Define gameplay. There are doors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 We still haven't defined story and you want gameplay? :D Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarkon Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 The two definitions are interrelated, methinks. :cool: There are doors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 The two definitions are interrelated, methinks. :cool: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> At least for the purposes of this discussion. You're an erudite fellow. Take a shot at a working definition. Just remember to duck. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarkon Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Alright. Gameplay is what you do in a game. Not good enough? There are doors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Gameplay = Fun Fun = Tactics + Effort * Effect OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Er... I would've said fun is about as subjective as you can get. Not only does it depend on the individual, but it depends on the condition of the individual. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 That doesn't help us form a definition, though, does it? OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Meh, Indigo seems fun to me :D Some people will likely find the game too simple of an interface, but their goal seemed to be a game based around emotion and choice, rather than specifically gameplay mechanics. They wanted to make the interface simple, and have it reflect the actions that the character is performing. A dynamic, interactive story of sorts. As I've said, I'm curious to see how it pans out. Not bad for a game that I hadn't even heard of before I played the demo today :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azarkon Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Alright, how's this? Stop talking in the abstract and stop generalizing about what games should be about. All that comes down to most of the times is an argument over semantics and definitions, which ends up being an argument over linguistic systems of classification that become deprived of relevance to game development and criticism, and thus things of consequence to this board. There are doors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Seems as though Indigo Prophecy has also gone gold. Out in early September...nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Alright, how's this? Stop talking in the abstract and stop generalizing about what games should be about. All that comes down to most of the times is an argument over semantics and definitions, which ends up being an argument over linguistic systems of classification that become deprived of relevance to game development and criticism, and thus things of consequence to this board. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Settle down, there, Plato. Alright. What do I like in a story? I like deep themes, and deep characters in rich settings. By deep and rich I mean they must have several levels, and be related to reality in some ways, although those ways can be allegorical. This is input for my brain. However, for a story to stay interesting once I have sussed out the themes and characters I need the themes and characters to change. Good guys have to fall, bad guys get redeemed. Young must age and old must ...er. Howzat? "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I dunno if the themes have to change; I would say something interesting has to happen to the character(s). OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantousent Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Maybe some of you braniacs can come up with detailed examples! I am not a braniac, and therefore cannot give either detail or example. Fionavar's Holliday Wishes to all members of our online community: Happy Holidays Join the revelry at the Obsidian Plays channel:Obsidian Plays Remembering tarna, Phosphor, Metadigital, and Visceris. Drink mead heartily in the halls of Valhalla, my friends! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadigital Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 Tetris. Gameplay: simple concept, with (linear) escalating difficulty (speed to make decisions), predicated with randomness (items to decide upon). No deep themes, apart from ne quid nemis, perhaps. OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I fear there is not Tetris Anonymous organization yet. Perhaps it will be my calling in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walsingham Posted July 27, 2005 Share Posted July 27, 2005 I fear there is not Tetris Anonymous organization yet. Perhaps it will be my calling in life. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I thought you were going to unite the tribes and kill until no Harkonnen breathes Arrakeen air, or something. "It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"." -Elwood Blues tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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