Junction Point Studios -more info

[alanschu]

The vents exist because they want to try to stay true to their promise of having some sort of open ended story.

 

If they made it so that everyone would have to go through some bottleneck, then they would have failed in their project goal.

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Except there's more ways to achieve this than by excessive use of vent crawling. Multiple path and associated level progression doesn't need to be confined to the same one trick pony.

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Agreed...they probably could have been a bit more creative.

[alanschu]

But following your reasoning, there isn't a single powerful enemy in BL.

 

Nothing a flamethrower can't fix :D

 

 

I don't remember the Tremere bad guy. What section of town was he in?

[Musopticon?]

Downtown, iirc. In a hotel that came accessible later.

[alanschu]

Was this towards the end of the game? Like the Sabbat boss or whatever?

 

I thought he wast the Tzimzice (or whatever).

[Musopticon?]

Yeah, nearer to the end. After you left the Hunter monastery.

 

The Tzimisc

[metadigital]

But there is no reason why the PC can't have some sort of cloaking abilities / properties; especially if they are circumvented as soon as the PC attempts offensive action. That's a fair balance, IMO.

I found that one of the most lame things in DX2 (alongside the ten square meter military bases). As soon as you fired a shot, your cloak magically went off. It's probably one of the worst introduced game balance gimmicks in a game, ever. Talk about detracting from immersion.

 

In Deus Ex it was perfectly balanced, because you could not have both Cloak and Radar Transparency simultaneously. But since they allowed that in IW, they had to introduce that cheap mechanism to prevent the game from becoming a cakewalk (even more).

...

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Yes you're right. The best compromise would be that the shot fired would give a fair indication of your position, like a lit match in a WW2 trench ... third guy to light his cigarette is dead; so too third shot and everyone can triangulate your position (regardless of silencer).

 

So the answer is only allow one of two/three cloaking technologies at any time?

[alanschu]

Yeah, nearer to the end. After you left the Hunter monastery.

 

The Tzimisc

[Lord Tingeling]

In exchange, Nossies get Potence. Potence + Obfuscation + Katana = InstaGIB.

 

 

Eh?

 

 

Apart from the dodge/soak bonuses that potence confers, if you're looking for damage, potence isn't really economical due to the higher costs disciplines have unless you for some reason want to go above the normal cap for melee up til 15 with potence. And that would entail giving up *a lot* of xp for quite small gains, all things considered.

 

 

In those situations, any Clan (except for the horribly overpowered Brujah) will be in trouble.

 

Clans with celerity or fortitude will fare better than those without, seeing as Celerity will simply let you dodge bullets and fortitude protects from both the shotguns of the Sabbath and the claws of the warform vampires within.

 

Apparently, the only Discipline that isn't crap for you is Celerity (and the laughably underpowered Thaumaturgy).

 

What's the saying? Assuming will make an ass out of you and me? Regardless, please show me where in this thread I've commented on the usefulness of, say, dominate or fortitude?

 

Seeing as I "apparently" consider them to be crap, I'm rather curious as to what you base this upon.

 

 

The idea is to *not* get hit, so you don't have to rely on Blood Shield and Fortitude. Being a FPS, it has to have some advantages.

 

Oh, sorry, my bad. I forgot you were "uber". Just couldn't resist, sorry.

 

Blood shield simply makes for a much better melee fighter than one equipped with potence, seeing as the benefits of potence apart from the soak/dodge do not come into play until you max both melee and strength.

 

I find the above reasoning interesting, really, but you're right. I can see the error of my ways now. Please excuse me while open NWN and BGII just to delete all the defensive spells from my spellbook, seeing as "the idea is to not get hit at all".

 

Against enemies such as the gargoyle with a predictable attack pattern, not getting hit is easy, fair enough. Against multiple katana-wielding hobos, it's rather impossible without using save/reload very frivolously.

 

As for blood, that's what blood packs, elder vitae and mortals are for.

 

And that money can easily be spent on ammo for a ranged fighter, instead. Why use consumables when you can simply drain somebody elses' blood? And elder vitae, last I checked, is quite expensive and not in unlimited supply until Ming Must Die.

 

The Malks, underpowered? That's pretty rich. Bedlam lets you kill any enemy instantly, barring bosses, and it will deal huge damage to those. Yes, instant kills protected by invisibility is the exact definition of underpowered.

 

Oh, they're underpowered compared to Brujah or Toreador, seeing as said classes can simply gun down anything without fear of getting hit themselves. And Malks are hardly the only ones with instant kills. A certain other clan with Blood Boil comes to mind, with the only difference that said clan has a means to use said skills almost constantly without having to rely on blood packs.

 

Have you really played a Malk?

 

I always fall back on that clan when I'm bored with the others. Obfusucate is, as you say, very powerful. But only in certain situations. Against the Chang brothers, neither dementation nor Obfusecate is of much use, for example.

 

 

Sure, Protean sucks, in the game at least. But in the game, so does Thaumaturgy.

 

Yes, of course. And on the same note, so does clan Gangrel and clan Nosferatu. Now, I believe, we're somewhat even.

 

Right. I forgot you're uber 1337. My bad.

 

No. But those telltale sparks coming from the barrels before he ignites them is usually enough to make me move a few feet to avoid getting burned to crisp. I don't know, perhaps I somehow share a dislike for agonizing, fiery deaths with my bloodsucking alter ego on the screen, enough to actually make me try to avoid said attack?

 

What was it you said, now again? Ah yes, the idea is to not get hit at all. If that constitutes being "leet", I wonder what managing to, say, jump when the Sheriff does his sideways swipe constitues? Being UBER HAXXOR OMGOOMG LOLOLOL?

 

I'm not all that familiar with your use of l33t lingo, so please, enlighten me.

 

But following your reasoning, there isn't a single powerful enemy in BL.

 

What "reasoning", may I ask? I said nothing except for that the Tremere in question was easy. If you equate this to saying that no enemy in the game is hard, then I guess I could take your "reasoning" to its extreme by saying that thinking a zombie to be easy would equate to, by definition, saying that no enemy in the game is powerful.

[213374U]

So the answer is only allow one of two/three cloaking technologies at any time?

I'd say that the best way to make sure that cloaking doesn't completely destroy game balance is to make it less than flawless. The Predator Cloak in AvP2 comes to mind. It didn't hide you from Aliens, and if you stepped into the light, moved too fast, or touched someone, humans would spot you (as in get an approximate notion of your position). And there was a coherent explanation as to why using certain weapons would deactivate your cloak.

 

Not that it mattered much because a single charged plasma shot could take out almost anything, but you get my point. "

[Lord Tingeling]

Not that it mattered much because a single charged plasma shot could take out almost anything, but you get my point.  "

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Predators were extremely cheesy in AvP2. Those duels me and my mates had were... madness. Especially seeing as a said plasma shot is *homing* on top of everything.

 

Nobody that used that weapon for long became very liked, that's for sure.

[metadigital]

So the answer is only allow one of two/three cloaking technologies at any time?

I'd say that the best way to make sure that cloaking doesn't completely destroy game balance is to make it less than flawless. The Predator Cloak in AvP2 comes to mind. It didn't hide you from Aliens, and if you stepped into the light, moved too fast, or touched someone, humans would spot you (as in get an approximate notion of your position). And there was a coherent explanation as to why using certain weapons would deactivate your cloak.

 

Not that it mattered much because a single charged plasma shot could take out almost anything, but you get my point. "

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I like that idea, too.

 

I got the distinct feeling that a lot of the biomods in IW were just there to flesh out the range of biomods, and not for any real game balance.

 

Also, the combat system suXX0r3d. I have nothing against a neat Robocopesque targeting system would be good for auto-aiming, but there seemed to be contrived randomization in the targeting system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And dodging bullets is the silliest idea since Wonder Woman ricocheting bullets with her arm bands, fired at her from a firearm within twenty feet.

[alanschu]

Not that it mattered much because a single charged plasma shot could take out almost anything, but you get my point.  "

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Predators were extremely cheesy in AvP2. Those duels me and my mates had were... madness. Especially seeing as a said plasma shot is *homing* on top of everything.

 

Nobody that used that weapon for long became very liked, that's for sure.

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The plasma shot was homing? I thought just the boomerang was.

 

 

Been a while since I played the game.

 

 

Alien tag was the best (with no preds)

[Lord Tingeling]

Not that it mattered much because a single charged plasma shot could take out almost anything, but you get my point.  "

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Predators were extremely cheesy in AvP2. Those duels me and my mates had were... madness. Especially seeing as a said plasma shot is *homing* on top of everything.

 

Nobody that used that weapon for long became very liked, that's for sure.

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The plasma shot was homing? I thought just the boomerang was.

 

 

Been a while since I played the game.

 

 

Alien tag was the best (with no preds)

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The shoulder mounted canon was indeed homing, provided you used the correct visor when targeting, IIRC.

[alanschu]

I thought it was just auto-targetting.

[metadigital]

...

Not that it mattered much because a single charged plasma shot could take out almost anything, but you get my point.  "

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Then again, one chop of the Dragon Sword and every opponent is toast, too (except Walton Simons

[213374U]

Apart from the dodge/soak bonuses that potence confers, if you're looking for damage, potence isn't really economical due to the higher costs disciplines have unless you for some reason want to go above the normal cap for melee up til 15 with potence. And that would entail giving up *a lot* of xp for quite small gains, all things considered.

Potence comes in handy when dealing with enemies that soak, as you pointed out. Otherwise, the bonuses from attacking from concealment are enough. The bottom line is, that the damage potential per hit for a Nosferatu is huge, regardless of the enemy. But yes, they are underpowered.

 

 

Clans with celerity or fortitude will fare better than those without, seeing as Celerity will simply let you dodge bullets and fortitude protects from both the shotguns of the Sabbath and the claws of the warform vampires within.

More proof that your vaunted Blood Shield is crap.

 

 

Oh, sorry, my bad. I forgot you were "uber". Just couldn't resist, sorry.

 

Blood shield simply makes for a much better melee fighter than one equipped with potence, seeing as the benefits of potence apart from the soak/dodge do not come into play until you max both melee and strength.

 

I find the above reasoning interesting, really, but you're right. I can see the error of my ways now. Please excuse me while open NWN and BGII just to delete all the defensive spells from my spellbook, seeing as "the idea is to not get hit at all".

That was a nice straw man. Nice, as in blatant and childish.

 

You see, I added the sentence "being a FPS, it has to have some advantages". In a PnP/pure RPG environment, your skill is irrelevant, you depend on the rolls. But in a FPS, no matter how protected you are, if you can't dodge, you're going to die. Starting from the premise that BL is a FPS regardless of the ruleset, the game balance and the factors that affect it are adjusted accordingly (in this case, disciplines).

 

This should be obvious, but what is it that they say...? "Common sense is the least common of all the senses"?

 

 

Against enemies such as the gargoyle with a predictable attack pattern, not getting hit is easy, fair enough. Against multiple katana-wielding hobos, it's rather impossible without using save/reload very frivolously.

Wait a second, I thought you had made it clear you are 1337!

 

Let me get this straight. So now, a few melee opponents are a threat, but before, the same melee/ranged opponents in an unfavorable environment while having to pay attention to some crazy ass wizard is no trouble at all.

 

Wow, that's what I call razor-sharp logic, buddy!

 

 

And that money can easily be spent on ammo for a ranged fighter, instead. Why use consumables when you can simply drain somebody elses' blood? And elder vitae, last I checked, is quite expensive and not in unlimited supply until Ming Must Die.

Last time I checked, the heavy combat areas were full of opportunities to refill your blood pool. I didn't really buy any blood packs, seeing as I pissed off the guy who sold them, but I just held on to the ones I came across until I really needed them. The same for the elder vitae. Again, is there a need to go robbing enemies of their blood, when there are more effective ways of disposing of them?

 

 

Oh, they're underpowered compared to Brujah or Toreador, seeing as said classes can simply gun down anything without fear of getting hit themselves. And Malks are hardly the only ones with instant kills. A certain other clan with Blood Boil comes to mind, with the only difference that said clan has a means to use said skills almost constantly without having to rely on blood packs.

Anything is underpowered when compared to Brujah. Which leads to the conclusion that it's the Brujah that are outside game balance, not the rest of the game. Please, I don't know how much more of your "overwhelming logic" I can stand.

 

 

Against the Chang brothers, neither dementation nor Obfusecate is of much use, for example.

Dementation is useful if you have it at least at level 3, at which they will not be killed by Vision of Death (made a mistake earlier), but they will take damage. And I think that the damage bonuses from attacking while Obfuscated apply regardless of the enemy being able to see you. Not sure on that one though.

 

 

 

No. But those telltale sparks coming from the barrels before he ignites them is usually enough to make me move a few feet to avoid getting burned to crisp. I don't know, perhaps I somehow share a dislike for agonizing, fiery deaths with my bloodsucking alter ego on the screen, enough to actually make me try to avoid said attack?

Does that mean he's not powerful? No. It just means that that guy was programmed in such a way that you could kill him somehow. He had the raw power to kill you easily, seeing as one of his blasts could seriously hurt, if not kill, you.

 

Again, you're charging forward against points that simply nobody has made. Keep at it, statistics show that you will hit spot someday.

 

 

What was it you said, now again? Ah yes, the idea is to not get hit at all. If that constitutes being "leet", I wonder what managing to, say, jump when the Sheriff does his sideways swipe constitues? Being UBER HAXXOR OMGOOMG LOLOLOL?

What? You're a UBER HAXX0R too?

 

Dude, ur so totally sweet and awesome!

 

OMGOOMG LOLOLOL!

 

 

What "reasoning", may I ask? I said nothing except for that the Tremere in question was easy. If you equate this to saying that no enemy in the game is hard, then I guess I could take your "reasoning" to its extreme by saying that thinking a zombie to be easy would equate to, by definition, saying that no enemy in the game is powerful.

Only a zombie can't kill you in a single hit if you turn your back on him. I simply took your reasoning to a point in which it's obvious that the reasoning is wrong. That's called reductio ad absurdum and it's a perfectly legitimate way to debunk fallacies such as this one. Let's see how in a classical Sesame Street-esque way, as it seems you have trouble keeping up.

 

I say, "enemy A is powerful". (This is an undisputable fact, as was clarified above)

You say "No, I use my uber l33t techniques to pwn him so and so"

Then I infer from your previous statement, that since there is always a set way of dealing with every enemy, then this means that there are no powerful enemies, since you stated that the existance of a weak spot precludes the fact that an enemy is powerful.

[alanschu]

If the Tremere truly is the guy I am thinking he is....I didn't find him very hard either :\

[Guest Fishboot]

Then again, one chop of the Dragon Sword and every opponent is toast, too (except Walton Simons

[alanschu]

Then again, one chop of the Dragon Sword and every opponent is toast, too (except Walton Simons

[metadigital]

This is off topic and a big Deus Ex spoiler, but

was anyone else disappointed that Walter wasn't the big bad guy behind it all? Right up 'til I whacked him I was sure he was going to play Bob Page somehow. He just seemed like a much more visceral tyrant type than Bob, and a better foil for JC.

Also, Tom Hall (formerly of Midway and Ion Storm, odd how much that's coming up today) was a very impressive voice actor for Walter.

 

Now I have to leave this thread because Bloodlines spoilers are being popped off liberally. 

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Nope.

 

 

I loved it when Simons wasn't the boss...because it meant that much more game!

 

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Me too. I think that is the primary reason Deus Ex became such an iconic game: it was undersold and understated. When it just kept on going, I felt like I was playing an Isaac Asimov novel ... Also, the actual plot was more realistic; the kingpin isn't going to be getting his hands dirty.

 

Also, Tom Hall did a voice in the title sequence for the sequel too, I noticed.

[213374U]

Hmm. Simons died with a single strike from the Dragon's Tooth in my game. But perhaps that's because in the GOTY version the DT deals 100dmg instead of just 25?

 

And I don't think he was truly aware of what Page was up to, or that he could pull it off so soon. He wasn't of the order taking sort.

[metadigital]

Hmm. Simons died with a single strike from the Dragon's Tooth in my game. But perhaps that's because in the GOTY version the DT deals 100dmg instead of just 25?

 

And I don't think he was truly aware of what Page was up to, or that he could pull it off so soon. He wasn't of the order taking sort.

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Yeah, the latest patch tones down the dragontooth sword [] a bit. (My favourite trick was my first final encounter with Simons; I was carrying the TNT crate up and dropped it as he came in to attack me (with and on), so that he had his legs blown off. Then he was a sitting duck, while my healing restored my legs ...)

:cool:

[Guest Fishboot]

I loved it when Simons wasn't the boss...because it meant that much more game!

 

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I'm not saying I wish that the game ended there, just that the roles in the storyline had been moved around a bit. I still consider it a classic, of course, I would just have liked a small tweak.

[metadigital]

I loved it when Simons wasn't the boss...because it meant that much more game!

 

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I'm not saying I wish that the game ended there, just that the roles in the storyline had been moved around a bit. I still consider it a classic, of course, I'd just have liked a small tweak there.

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As Numbers said, though, the whole point was the "puppetmaster" Simons was, in fact, being played as well. It was delicious irony. Even if it may not be completely plausible, because it would be difficult for Page to hide that sort of thing from Simons: then again, he's the head of the most secret secret organisation, so he should be able to keep a secret ...

 

I liked

telling the dude in the deep freeze that the head of the Illuminati wasn't going to let him out

, too.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

People should get really suspicious if lightbulbs keep popping all over the place.

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No doubt, but that's more or less expected of the AI. I'd say this option would be pretty interesting because it would not only provide another way to handle environments, it would also have to be used with care by the player. I suspect there would be different alert levels as well. A clearly shot lightbulb would make noise in the distance, and the area would be permanently darkened, which would significantly alert the AI. A specialized device like Musopticon suggested would likely reduce the damage done to electric lights and its effect wouldn't be as ham-fisted as shooting the lights.

 

O'course, they could add lots of those neat light switches, which would likely be the safest way to bypass some areas flooded with light. Guards would just go "?", and go there and turn it on again, while the PC was already sneaking away. A bit like Metal Gear Solid perhaps, but possible all the same.

 

In an ideal world, a Deus Ex sequel would incorporate a handful of sneaking techniques, both improvements over the originals and new ones. Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid both seem to have good elements that could find their way into a game like Deus Ex.

 

Though even more ideal than that would be to have the sequel developed with only the PC in mind.