The Korriban tomb, and the vision of Revan.

[metadigital]

Precisely. I was thinking it might be:

• the Jedi who left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, who repressed all the atrocities they had to commit and witness, plus
   
  
• the Jedi who stayed behind and repressed the fates of the millions who would die because of their inaction, their own Canterbury Cathedral Syndrome (as in Winston Churchill's enigma dilemma).
  

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The jedi that follow Revan and Malak to fight in the Mandalorians didn't repress anything - they all either fell or gave in to the dark side as Revan and Malak did or they didn't survive at all (remember HK-47's comment about Revan 'cleaning house). The Exile was uniquely the only one of them to reject the dark side and return to the jedi coundil.

 

The jedi council wasn't there, since they refused to enter the Mandalorian War in the first place. Hence they never committed any of the atrocities that would have made them fall to the dark side, and so there was no lure for them to repress. Not entering the war was choice, not repression.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not sure if you are avoiding my points or you just misapprehended them, so I'll re-iterate:

• the Jedi who left to fight in the Mandalorian Wars, who repressed all the atrocities they had to commit and witness, plus
   
  
• the Jedi who stayed behind and repressed the fates of the millions who would die because of their inaction, their own Canterbury Cathedral Syndrome (as in Winston Churchill's enigma dilemma).
  

Right, now your first point was that all the Jedi who left for the Mandalorian Wars had fallen to the Dark Side

[Jediphile]

I'm not sure if you are avoiding my points or you just misapprehended them, so I'll re-iterate:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No need to be insulted just because I dare not to agree with you. My opinion really isn't that important, is it?

 

Right, now your first point was that all the Jedi who left for the Mandalorian Wars had fallen to the Dark Side

[metadigital]

No need to be insulted just because I dare not to agree with you. My opinion really isn't that important, is it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I se you're in a truculent mood. I wasn't insulted, I was re-iterating because you completely ignored my second point, and dismissed the first with insufficient care, methinks. I didn't take it personally, I merely thought you had erroneously skimmed over my points in your hurry to make a response.

 

Still, be offended if it helps you deal with opposition, it makes no difference to me. "

From HK-47 in the game: "Observation: Master, that was the lesson of Malachor. Any Jedi involved in the systematic slaughter on such a scale cannot help but doubt and question themselves.Observation: Master, I do not believe that the Mandalorians were the true target at Malachor - I believe that the intention was to destroy the Jedi, break their will, and make them loyal to Revan.I do not know if you examined the records of the deaths on Malachor, but you cannot escape that many of the Jedi and Republic soldiers who died were not Revan's strongest supporters. Observation: I believe that Revan was "cleaning house" at Malachor V. What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."

 

Now, pay attention to the last line - it very clearly suggests that the jedi who fought in the Mandalorian Wars were either killed or else joined Revan's ranks. Also note the part of breaking the jedi's will and making them more loyal to Revan himself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, it does tend to suggest that. But, just like every other piece of dialogue in the game, when subjected to scrutiny, it reveals less than at first glance. I am quite confident that not all Jedi who fought with Revan fell or died at M5. You are free to have a different opinion, or is it you who is insulted that my opinion differs? I wouldn't want to be discussing anything with a hyporcrite ... "

The problem with that is that when you take a mask like that under pretense, then eventually you cannot tell the mask from the real face anymore. Ulic tried just the same deceit to his own peril. Luke did too, though he was not lost entirely to the dark side. In short, for Revan to play the part convincingly, he had to commit some atrocities, so people would think he was Sith. But once he started down that slippery slope, there was no return. But that's a whole different discussion...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the only answer can possibly come from a sequel. I would say, though, if Luke could do it, why not Revan? As far as I am aware, Revan's only "Sith" actions were to hunt and find the Rakatan's secret weapon, and to join battle against the Mandalorians in a war they started, against the Council's orders.

 

If Revan had foreseen a strategic fault in the Jedi Council's plan, and they had ignored Revan's advice, then Revan was acting in accordance with Chaotic Good intentions, just like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan disobeying the Council's will in TPM. (This might even have been a trigger for Malak, who obviously didn't withstand the Fall.)

I still think you're equating the knowledge that war is horror with witnessing that war is horror, and they're still not the same. As for 'feeling it through the Force', by that logic the Jedi would also have known what the outcast dark jedi do in the Sith empire thousands of years ago, yet they don't seem to have repressed anything on that basis. If you're right, then they should have noticed that and felt guilt for it, since they forced this dark fate on the original Sith by exiling the dark jedi. The problem with that sort of thing is where does it end? If the Jedi are responsible for that too, then what are they not responsible for? Is there even anything that isn't their responsibility in some way? And if they are so all-powerful that they have the responsibility for all that, then aren't they gods? I think that would be taking it much too far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps the original Jedi who banished the Dark ones that became the Sith did indeed feel the guilt of their consequences; maybe that caused some of the problems in the KotOR universe (even if it was just the problem of Jedi dealing with their feelings).

 

I was just suggesting another cause for this silly echo / wound in the Force plot device. As far as I can tell, none of the philosophical ramifications in K2 are particularly rigorously researched.

It's true that the masters let people die through their passivity, but there is a difference between knowing the sacrifice and feeling the sacrifice. The masters made the choice because they saw an even greater loss, if they acted. So though lives were lost, they chose what they thought was the lesser of two evils (whether they were right is a matter for another discussion, methinks). They certainly expressed mourning at making that choice in both games, though, and that is not the same as repression. Repression, according to dictionary.com is (in the context of psychology, which is what we're talking about here): "The unconscious exclusion of painful impulses, desires, or fears from the conscious mind." That being the case, the council didn't repress anything - they went into it with their eyes open, though they were saddened by where their choice forced them to go. Their guilt was of a philosophical nature rather than repressed subconscious baggage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The repressed fear would be that they had misapprehended the unseen threat, and in so doing, had sentenced all the innocents to death that their inaction perpertrated. Painful impulses? Again, feeling the innocents through the Force (Obi-Wan Kenobi, Alderan and ANH). Desires? To prevent the Mandalorians causing havok, assist the innocent, generally to participate and not sit and impotently watch the galaxy burn around them.

 

Ask a Roman Catholic, or a Jewish person, what there is to feel guilty about in life; very rarely is their guilt rational (original sin, anyone?).

 

And what about survivor guilt?

No, because they knew that this would happen - they didn't just turn their backs and pretended that it didn't happen. They knew quite well that it would happen. But they were also convinced that the alternative was even worse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But they couldn't have known that for certain. Certainly not all of the Jedi, even if the most wise Masters in the Council did. There is the doubt. That doubt breeds the fear and guilt. There is your repressed emotion.

I do see what you mean, but for that to be true, the force would have to connect the jedi far more than I think is the case. We see quite frequently that the jedi don't know about things that have happened, and when they do, it seems to be either through meditation or rather coincidental or, perhaps, through the will of the force. This does not suggest that the group consciousness is a pervasive as it would probably have to be for your theory to be true. For example, Darth Sidious was under the nose of the entire jedi council for years and years, and they never even suspected him.

 

For the jedi who fought the Mandalorian Wars, it is a very different thing. Here's some more of HK-47's comments: "That is why Revan felt that Malachor V was so important. It was intended to be a conversion tool. Assessment: When faced with a continuous series of hard-fought battles, I detected a significant statistical increase in Jedi following Revan over the Jedi Code - a compromise in principles brought about by battlefield conditions.The emotional weight of war changed Jedi morale, power, and eventually, their allegiance. Conclusion: I believe the Mandalorian Wars were to beat the Mandalorians and also to allow Revan to build the foundation of his army.  But I am surprised you have not already arrived at this conclusion. Surely the loss of your troops and the Jedi who served under you at Malachor V, had a detrimental effect upon you and your ties to the Force - and I suspect, your desire to be around others ever again."

 

Now this tells us quite clearly what happened to the jedi in the wars. It is also interesting that the Exile's own history is touched upon, since that established the Exile being just as touched as everyone else, if indeed not more so, and yet the Exile didn't fall and was the only one to return to face the jedi council. Now add to that the quotation above ("What ones did not die became Revan's allies against the Republic."), and the Exile's unique status becomes rather obvious - he alone rejected the fall to the dark side. All other jedi would seem to have either fallen to the dark side or have died during the war. But the Exile did neither, and instead cut away his dark side from himself, and that then became Darth Nihilus IMHO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm. I can't fault your conclusion (certainly not with the existing status of the game and the dialogue contained within).

 

But it leaves another problem: where did the Nihilus's sentience come from?

 

Before you answer, consider, if it is just a dark mirror image of the Exile; surely the Exile would be able to eat planets, too. (Okay, that was just for effect, I wasn't serious.) Surely the Exile would have been destroyed in the battle with Nihilus, after all, they are equal and opposite aspects of the same Force being / consciousness: like matter and anti-matter, which annihilates all matter in a collision, producing energy. It would have been better if Visas had to step in and save the Exile at that point, knowing (or guessing) the real state of affairs at the moment of the battle. Perhaps this is what the developers originally planned, before the great purge.

 

(Nihilus only creates more plot holes than he sews up. Given the resultant size of his threat in the finished game, it would have been better to skip him completely ...)

[Jediphile]

Note: I split this post in two since it became rather long. Sorry.

 

No need to be insulted just because I dare not to agree with you. My opinion really isn't that important, is it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I se you're in a truculent mood. I wasn't insulted, I was re-iterating because you completely ignored my second point, and dismissed the first with insufficient care, methinks. I didn't take it personally, I merely thought you had erroneously skimmed over my points in your hurry to make a response.

 

Still, be offended if it helps you deal with opposition, it makes no difference to me. "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Me? If I had been offended, I would not have written the above - I would have written something much more inflamatory. I only wrote that because you wrote in your last post before that:

 

I'm not sure if you are avoiding my points or you just misapprehended them

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That seems to take the discussion beyond the topic to me. But no matter - I'm going to be arguing with you over who thew the first stone - I'd much rather just be the one to stop throwing them.

 

Yes, it does tend to suggest that. But, just like every other piece of dialogue in the game, when subjected to scrutiny, it reveals less than at first glance. I am quite confident that not all Jedi who fought with Revan fell or died at M5.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

We can all think whatever we want about it, but if we're to accomplish anything with this discussion, then we have to look beyond what we each tend to think, since that is often tied to what we want and so far beyond any objective obsersavation. I quote the game to support my position in order to establish that it is based on what the story tells us happened and not just what I preferred to have happened.

 

You are free to have a different opinion, or is it you who is insulted that my opinion differs? I wouldn't want to be discussing anything with a hyporcrite ...  "

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"

 

Well, the only answer can possibly come from a sequel. I would say, though, if Luke could do it, why not Revan? As far as I am aware, Revan's only "Sith" actions were to hunt and find the Rakatan's secret weapon, and to join battle against the Mandalorians in a war they started, against the Council's orders.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First, and I probably confused the issue here myself, Luke didn't actually do it. Indeed it was Leia who brought him back to the light side by forcing the issue while extending a hand. Without her help, Luke would have belonged to the dark side for good. Or as he says towards the end of Dark Empire, "One jedi cannot conquer the dark side alone..." This was Ulic's mistake, too, btw. Note that both stories were written by the same author.

 

Revan made same mistake that Ulic did - he challenged the dark side alone. But the jedi are not solitary - they always rely on each other, and probably because they know the individual is flawed and makes mistakes. Revan couldn't escape that simple truth either and so he fell. And he did more than battle the Mandalorians and hunt the Starforge.

 

KotOR2 may have established that it was done to prepare for the greater threat of the true Sith, but even so, Revan did 'clean house' by letting lightsided jedi die on Malachor V and having the rest (or almost the rest - I'll get to that later) fall to the dark side under his command. Both of these are pretty terrible things to do. And though we may suspect that Revan initially looked for the Starforge to have a weapon against the true Sith, that is not what happened. Instead he lied to the Rakatan priests, who wanted the weapon shut down, and instead used it to create a fleet that he then promptly invaded the Republic with. He also created the HK-50 units and set them free to infect the galaxy. Maybe his choices had made him fall further than he guessed, maybe he miscalculated the Starforge's ties to the dark side and the effect that would have on him, or maybe he, as Kreia suggests, knowingly sacrificed himself for the greater good. I tend to think the latter, but then that's a personal preference, even if it is one proposed by the game. In any event, Revan fell to the dark side, totally and completely. I really cannot see it any other way. When he was captured by Bastila, however, the council changed his memories. Or as Kreia puts it, they stripped away the dark surface and allowed what was underneath to grow again. Whether that was a thing for good or evil is a choice the player makes in KotOR1. I always saw Revan as basically good, but that's just my opinion.

 

If Revan had foreseen a strategic fault in the Jedi Council's plan, and they had ignored Revan's advice, then Revan was acting in accordance with Chaotic Good intentions, just like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan disobeying the Council's will in TPM. (This might even have been a trigger for Malak, who obviously didn't withstand the Fall.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I could go along with that, at least to a point. I do think that Revan was overwhelmed and eventually fell, though. But I also think he did so knowingly for the greater cause. Revan seems to have a tendency for self-sacrifice, which he used as a weapon.

 

Continued below...

[Jediphile]

Continued from my last post above...

 

The repressed fear would be that they had misapprehended the unseen threat, and in so doing, had sentenced all the innocents to death that their inaction perpertrated. Painful impulses? Again, feeling the innocents through the Force (Obi-Wan Kenobi, Alderan and ANH). Desires? To prevent the Mandalorians causing havok, assist the innocent, generally to participate and not sit and impotently watch the galaxy burn around them.

 

Ask a Roman Catholic, or a Jewish person, what there is to feel guilty about in life; very rarely is their guilt rational (original sin, anyone?).

 

And what about survivor guilt?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, except the examples you cite all indicate conscience and morality. Repression is what happens when we deny or ignore our choices or experiences. An evil person wouldn't care how many were killed or that he let die so that he could live, though. So either way, this does not suggest a repression of the dark side to me. The council may have felt guilt and regret at what happened, but they didn't just refuse to get involved. Bastila mentions in KotOR1 that they would eventually have gotten involved and that Revan and Malak wouldn't give them the time they needed to prepare, since people were dying on the outer rim.

 

In some way you could say this is like Luke rushing off to confront Vader before he is ready to fight the battle. Obi-Wan and Yoda wanted Luke to wait, but his friends were dying. Obi-Wan says, "Patience!" and Luke, "And sacrifice Han and Leia?". Yoda replies, "If you honour what they fought for, yes!" Note the significance that are not telling Luke that he shouldn't fight Vader at all - they want and *need* him to fight Vader - they just don't want him to fight that battle so soon, because they know he's not ready for it yet.

 

The situation here is similar (less personal, but involving more people). The council's choice was the same as that of Obi-Wan and Yoda. Revan and Malak made the same choice as Luke. As as we learned, Luke's choice can scarcely have been called the right one, though it might seem so at the first glance - Luke nearly fell to the dark side because of his choice, and consequences of that would have been far worse for the galaxy than the loss of his friends.

 

The council of Revan's age realized that fighting the Mandalorians so soon would have cost the same, if not more, and so they adviced patience. Revan and Malak would not accept that and so split the jedi on the issue. Revan may have done so because he realized the same greater threat that the council did (the true Sith), but he also knew that his strategic plan to fight the true Sith through sacrifice of jedi would never have been approved by the council.

 

But they couldn't have known that for certain. Certainly not all of the Jedi, even if the most wise Masters in the Council did. There is the doubt. That doubt breeds the fear and guilt. There is your repressed emotion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Guilt, yes. Doubt, probably. Repression, I don't think so, since it was a conscious choice.

 

But it leaves another problem: where did the Nihilus's sentience come from?

 

Before you answer, consider, if it is just a dark mirror image of the Exile; surely the Exile would be able to eat planets, too. (Okay, that was just for effect, I wasn't serious.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You sure you haven't been reading my KotOR3 suggestion?

 

Seriously, I suggested something along those lines during my KotOR3 plot some time ago. It should still be in one of the earlier parts of that topic on the Obsidian General board somwhere.

 

Surely the Exile would have been destroyed in the battle with Nihilus, after all, they are equal and opposite aspects of the same Force being / consciousness: like matter and anti-matter, which annihilates all matter in a collision, producing energy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I do not see the Exile and Nihilus as equal. Nihilus is just a small part. He's is like an arm or leg infected with gangrene, which the Exile cuts off to save himself. This leaves a terrible wound (force wound), but the Exile can live on just fine, though he remains wounded by having lost the use of his limb, which in this case means being cut off from the force. It isn't a physical thing like an arm, however, but an emotional part of himself that he has thrown away, or rather his own dark side. That dark side is strong enough to survive if only for a time, but it continues to exist by animating a body as a host for it and then draining the lifeforce of jedi, since it has none of its own, as it's just a shell with nothing real underneath. Hence Nihilus ("Nihil" - latin for "nothingness"). And he must continue to consume jedi or die, which is the "hunger" than Kreia talks about. He cannot 'suck' the Exile, however, because that is his true self, and attempts to "suck" the Exile therefore has the opposite effect - it reconnects them (draining him into the Exile instead), but destroys the phantom that is Nihilus in the process. He stopped in time to cease his existence, but was then cut down by lightsabers instead. And instead of just dying, he was mysteriously vaporized, which is not common for a Sith. Why? Reconnection to his true self.

 

It would have been better if Visas had to step in and save the Exile at that point, knowing (or guessing) the real state of affairs at the moment of the battle. Perhaps this is what the developers originally planned, before the great purge.

 

(Nihilus only creates more plot holes than he sews up. Given the resultant size of his threat in the finished game, it would have been better to skip him completely ...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, until the devs tell us what they really planned, it's anyone's guess, I suppose...

[metadigital]

...

That seems to take the discussion beyond the topic to me. But no matter - I'm going to be arguing with you over who thew the first stone - I'd much rather just be the one to stop throwing them.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you need to adjust your insult-detector, it's set waaaaay to high. I was being direct; brusque, perhaps, but certainly not insulting. There will be no doubt if I decide to insult someone; otherwise

[Jediphile]

Hmmm. You seem to have shot off on a tangent into the EU, a place that I am not familiar with, nor inclined to be. I am not likely to argue any of the conclusions you make from there, I shall restrict my discussion to the games and the films, if only because that is all I am know or should want to know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, the only thing I mentioned from the EU was Luke's fate in "Dark Empire" and Ulic's in the Tales of the Jedi comic books. Ulic's fate is mentioned as a warning in "Dark Empire", so the connection is obvious. Even if you don't like those, it is difficult to separate them from KotOR, since Ulic was Exar Kun's apprentice and so a major power during the Sith War that lies on some 40-50 years before KotOR1, and which is frequently referred to in both games. I'll be content to ignore "Dark Empire", since it's set so far in the future (compared to KotOR). Ulic is more difficult to ignore, however, because his history is still so recent and fresh in KotOR...

 

Um, I was talking about Jedi repressing their choices (to wait whilst the galaxy burned) and experiences (the attrocities committed at M5).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But they didn't repress their choice. Repression is, according to dictionary.com, "The unconscious exclusion of painful impulses, desires, or fears from the conscious mind." That is not the case here, since the council made the choice consciously. They may have felt guilt, remorse and regret about it, but even so, they knew full well what the cost would be. But they feared the alternative more, and so they chose the way they did. We could argue that they were wrong about their choice, but not that they were in denial about their choice. Seeing as how things turned, their fears were confirmed, as the jedi that fought did indeed fall the dark side as they had predicted.

 

Yes, but just like Luke proved, a Lawful Good person is not able to allow harm to come to others by their own inaction, whilst there is even the slimmest chance that they might end the suffering of innocents with their action or life.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't think you can sit the position the council did and care about the suffering of every innocent person there is. I imagine it would be akin to doctors, who avoid emotional attachments to patients, because it otherwise becomes too painful when they suffer. The same would be true for strategists, who must often sacrifice soldiers to win battles. History has several examples of wars, where some people were sacrificed, so that more could live. It is no doubt a hard choice, but it is also naive to think that you can save everybody. There are times when trying to do so costs too much, because you will only lose people in addition to those that are already lost. The council felt that this was the case here. Whether they were right or not is a different matter.

 

Hmmm. Actually, I quite like that idea for the birth of Nihilus. 

 

I am a little skeptical of your conclusion, though. Where did this Dark Side (Nihilus) go? If it was a quondam part of the Exile emotional / Force "spirit" (for want of a suitable word), then it should have been reconciled with the Exile in some sort of Dark Side Force burden (say, minus a third of the Exile's Force alignment compass points), which never happened.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, now you bring me to reveal the conclusion or rather speculation that my observations and assumptions have brought me to. As I see it, there are many lose ends in the story, that have not been tied up yet. And no, I'm not talking about the cut content (unless some of it touches on this subject, but I have not heard anything to that effect).

 

My point is that the Exile's story is not quite over yet. As others have said, KotOR2 has an open "to be continued" sort of ending, and even with all the stuff that was cut, it seems that it was always meant to be so. They built toward the mystery of Revan for an entire game, but didn't reach a conclusion? And the Exile ends up also going to the unknown regions alone, as Revan did? And the Exile's obvious connection to Nihilus is never fully revealed? We could go on and on about loose ends and unanswered questions, but the point is that KotOR2 was written with the intent of a sequel, at least as far as I can tell.

 

So yes, there is stuff we don't know yet, and what really happened between Nihilus and the Exile is one of them. I speculate that Nihilus was indeed 'reconnected' with the Exile when he vaporized in that red haze (or whatever it was), but the Exile (and so the player) still remained unaware of this. He was, after all, completely unaware of the force wound and it's effects, so it is not a big stretch IMHO that he would not realize all the consequences of it, Nihilus being one.

 

The Exile does seem to know subconsciously. It really struck me as odd that Visas, not the Exile, took Nihilus' mask, but the Exile then asked for it, but never looked at Nihilius with his own eyes. Perhaps he subconsciously knew that there was something there, that he would not like seeing. He lets Visas look at Nihilus and then asks her what she saw, but then she is blind in the common sense, and what she sees is therefore a metaphor subject to interpretation. Her answer is interesting:

 

"A man, nothing more. Malachor V. I saw a graveyard world, surrounded by a fleet of dead ships. I felt it through him... as I feel it through you".

 

She doesn't know his face, but she can see his past all the way back to Malachor V, and yet the Exile doesn't see for himself? Perhaps it was someone that he knew, when they were both there, and he can't be bothered to check? Odd...

 

Maybe the Exile knew subconsciously what he would see and chose to flee from it. He did the same on Malachor V during the Mandalorian Wars, after all. And to face Nihilus would therefore be to face the dark side of himself that he rejected so long ago. He was not prepared to do that.

 

But I don't think he can escape that fate. Unknowingly, he carried Nihilus with him, and that is why Nihilus dissolved. Note also how the Exile's connection with Kreia has conveniently vanished, once he reaches Malachor V. I assume that is because reconnecting with Nihilus has not only healed the force wound, but also cut the bond with Kreia. But either way, the Exile remains blissfully oblivious to all this, and therefore so does the player. I suspect it was to be a basis for revelation in KotOR3, and perhaps it still is.

[metadigital]

...

Well, now you bring me to reveal the conclusion or rather speculation that my observations and assumptions have brought me to. As I see it, there are many lose ends in the story, that have not been tied up yet. And no, I'm not talking about the cut content (unless some of it touches on this subject, but I have not heard anything to that effect).

 

My point is that the Exile's story is not quite over yet. As others have said, KotOR2 has an open "to be continued" sort of ending, and even with all the stuff that was cut, it seems that it was always meant to be so. They built toward the mystery of Revan for an entire game, but didn't reach a conclusion? And the Exile ends up also going to the unknown regions alone, as Revan did? And the Exile's obvious connection to Nihilus is never fully revealed? We could go on and on about loose ends and unanswered questions, but the point is that KotOR2 was written with the intent of a sequel, at least as far as I can tell.

 

So yes, there is stuff we don't know yet, and what really happened between Nihilus and the Exile is one of them. I speculate that Nihilus was indeed 'reconnected' with the Exile when he vaporized in that red haze (or whatever it was), but the Exile (and so the player) still remained unaware of this. He was, after all, completely unaware of the force wound and it's effects, so it is not a big stretch IMHO that he would not realize all the consequences of it, Nihilus being one.

 

The Exile does seem to know subconsciously. It really struck me as odd that Visas, not the Exile, took Nihilus' mask, but the Exile then asked for it, but never looked at Nihilius with his own eyes. Perhaps he subconsciously knew that there was something there, that he would not like seeing. He lets Visas look at Nihilus and then asks her what she saw, but then she is blind in the common sense, and what she sees is therefore a metaphor subject to interpretation. Her answer is interesting:

 

"A man, nothing more. Malachor V. I saw a graveyard world, surrounded by a fleet of dead ships. I felt it through him... as I feel it through you".

 

She doesn't know his face, but she can see his past all the way back to Malachor V, and yet the Exile doesn't see for himself? Perhaps it was someone that he knew, when they were both there, and he can't be bothered to check? Odd...

 

Maybe the Exile knew subconsciously what he would see and chose to flee from it. He did the same on Malachor V during the Mandalorian Wars, after all. And to face Nihilus would therefore be to face the dark side of himself that he rejected so long ago. He was not prepared to do that.

 

But I don't think he can escape that fate. Unknowingly, he carried Nihilus with him, and that is why Nihilus dissolved. Note also how the Exile's connection with Kreia has conveniently vanished, once he reaches Malachor V. I assume that is because reconnecting with Nihilus has not only healed the force wound, but also cut the bond with Kreia. But either way, the Exile remains blissfully oblivious to all this, and therefore so does the player. I suspect it was to be a basis for revelation in KotOR3, and perhaps it still is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, that is pretty good. Obviously it's all speculative, but as a cogent assessment of the plot and where it could be leading, I think you've done pretty well.

 

I would agree that there are far too many loose ends in the game to say that the plot was meant to conclude with the ending provided in K2. Whether that is because there is a masterplan in Esse and a superlative to finish the trilogy plot in Posse, or because the game was created to have as little impact on either the first game or any possible future games, is still a moot point.

 

So, here we are: inter spem et metum.

[Jediphile]

Actually, that is pretty good. Obviously it's all speculative, but as a cogent assessment of the plot and where it could be leading, I think you've done pretty well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thank you. And yes, it's highly speculative, but I like it because I think it carries lots of interesting potential with for a KotOR3. Glad you liked it.

 

I would agree that there are far too many loose ends in the game to say that the plot was meant to conclude with the ending provided in K2. Whether that is because there is a masterplan in Esse and a superlative to finish the trilogy plot in Posse, or because the game was created to have as little impact on either the first game or any possible future games, is still a moot point.

 

So, here we are: inter spem et metum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, to take this back to the subject, I think the above is tied to the reason why an evil exile is standing next to an evil Revan in the tomb vision on Korriban. If my speculation is accurate, then it could be a hint of things to come. But that's even more speculative.

[metadigital]

Well, to take this back to the subject, I think the above is tied to the reason why an evil exile is standing next to an evil Revan in the tomb vision on Korriban. If my speculation is accurate, then it could be a hint of things to come. But that's even more speculative.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought that vision-world was psychotropic, not prescient.

[Calax]

wow things actually got extrodinairly short! YAY!! Meta's right about Nihilus' threat, it's overall pathetic.

[Gabrielle]

It certainly is. You would think seeing how cool Nilhus looks he would but up a much better fight.

[Darth_Schmarth]

Not necessarily, though. I mean, look at me. I'm cool, but I can't fight.

[Gabrielle]

He's all show and no go.

[ProgenitorHK47]

What I don't understand is why Kreia felt the Exile could be the end of the Force and she put all her eggs in the Exile's basket, when Nihilus would seem the more obvious choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Nihilus would leave no survivors, and Kreia did not want to kill the galaxy, she just wanted the force dead.

[Jediphile]

Jeepers - is this thread still alive? I thought we killed it ages ago.

 

Not that I really mind...

 

 

What I don't understand is why Kreia felt the Exile could be the end of the Force and she put all her eggs in the Exile's basket, when Nihilus would seem the more obvious choice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Nihilus would leave no survivors, and Kreia did not want to kill the galaxy, she just wanted the force dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nihilus is a void. Note some of the things Kreia tells you about him, if you can get her to talk on the subject:

 

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

"Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts."

 

"Power? Do you think so?You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

 

 

Basically Nihilus is a thougtless hunger without intelligence. And besides, there is no separating the Exile from Nihilus or vice versa, if you accept my theory above

[Jambo]

but he cannot drain the Exile because that is himself - he is drawn to the Exile, his true self, not the other way around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

it would be like sucking on a vacuum...only a stronger vacuum, since the Exile is whole...

 

Against Nihilis, the Exile's void is stronger because he/she is whole. The only difference is the Exile leaches off of living, as well. Nihilis sucks the life out of a mass of people and then they're done for. The Exile leaches off of the living to maintain his/her connection to the force and relies on the death of his/her enemies to grow stronger. Nihilis sucks the life out of force sensetives in order maintain his/her/it's self, not necessarily to grow stronger.

 

This is all starting to make sense. It would be really cool if Nihilis was in K3

[Jambo]

But more on topic, I was under the impression that the questions you answered on peragus were supposed to have a bearing on how Revan appears in the tomb, but he/she looked exactly the same every time. I wonder if the lighsaber colors change depending on how you answered the questions on Peragus...

[Jediphile]

Against Nihilis, the Exile's void is stronger because he/she is whole. The only difference is the Exile leaches off of living, as well. Nihilis sucks the life out of a mass of people and then they're done for. The Exile leaches off of the living to maintain his/her connection to the force and relies on the death of his/her enemies to grow stronger. Nihilis sucks the life out of force sensetives in order maintain his/her/it's self, not necessarily to grow stronger.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes. And note what Kreia tells you about Nihilus in K2:

 

Kreia: "It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes.It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

 

Is it just me, or does this sound remarkably similar to what we eventually discover happened to the Exile himself on Malachor V ??

 

Kreia: "Yes. And he fed upon its destruction - it will sustain him, for a time.Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled... and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake.And it rules him, not the other way around. It has its own will, its own instincts."

 

Again, Nihilus is power without will, control, or intelligence. Nihilus is an instinct rather than an entity. He has no self.

 

Kreia: "Power? Do you think so? You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls."

 

All the things that define an intelligence, an individual, are lost to Nihilus. They all went someplace else... "

[Jediphile]

But more on topic, I was under the impression that the questions you answered on peragus were supposed to have a bearing on how Revan appears in the tomb, but he/she looked exactly the same every time. I wonder if the lighsaber colors change depending on how you answered the questions on Peragus...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Believe me, I've played both LS male (setting Revan to LS male) and DS female (setting Revan to DS male), and after this topic I went back to examine this part in my savegames - Revan is completely unchanged in both, and there is always a DS version of yourself standing next to him when you enter. They are both highly DS, proabably with DS mastery, which you can see for yourself with Force Sight.

 

So no, none of what you say earlier has any effect on this encounter. The only thing that changes depending on your choices in the game is, of course, the face and gender of DS vision of yourself standing next to Revan. But the Exile-vision is always DS, no mater what choices you make in the game.

[DAWUSS]

If he can't drain the Exile because it's his other half, then why does he send Visas out to kill you?

 

And if it was the Exile's other half, then how come very little happens to the Exile once Nihilus is vanished? If the two were products of each other, then wouldn't something a bit more dramatic have happened? (OK, we can chalk that up to cut content, but still...)

 

I do agree that Nihilus is a white mask and a black cape and a lightsaber. Nothing more, nothing less. Remember Visas doesn't necessarily see things the way we do. She sees things through the Force, which may or may not be different from seeing things with your own eyes.

 

And kind of a side topic - I wish we could have been able to equip that mask

[Jediphile]

If he can't drain the Exile because it's his other half, then why does he send Visas out to kill you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Nihilus is an instinct. He senses the Exile, but has no intelligence to comprehend him or her with. He just senses the Exile is a danger and that he is drawn to the Exile, so he sends Visas to find the Exile and bring him or her back to Nihilus.

 

And if it was the Exile's other half, then how come very little happens to the Exile once Nihilus is vanished? If the two were products of each other, then wouldn't something a bit more dramatic have happened? (OK, we can chalk that up to cut content, but still...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, I think we'll see more of that in K3, which is why it was left hanging. There is cut Nihilus content, yes, but I don't think any of it explains this. I think it was left as a mystery in K2 for a greater revelation in K3.

 

It does explain one thing, though - when Kreia surrenders herself to Atris, Exile mentions that Atris will kill Kreia, since she is Sith, and since the Exile is linked to Kreia, he/she will also die. That's a primary reason why the Exile hastens to Telos. And Atris says that Kreia waits for the Exile on Malachor V, and if he/she doesn't come, she will kill herself and thereby kill the Exile as well. Yet upon reaching Malachor V, nobody seems to worry about it anymore, and Kreia does indeed die without consequence for the Exile in the end.

 

Now, I do know that in the cut content master Vash explains that a force bond may be cut if one of the two involved falls to the dark side. I don't think that explains it, however, because Kreia was clearly already jedi, and yet the Exile seemed concerned about the connection when she went meet Atris on Telos. There would be no reason for that, if falling to the dark side would have cut the bond, and yet the concern is reiterated by Atris during the final discussion with her on Telos.

 

Upon reaching Malachor V, this is somehow not a problem anymore... What lies between those two points of the plot? The confrontation with Nihilus. The Exile never expresses concern about the bond after the Nihilus confrontation, which could be because something has happened in the meantime - maybe a reconnection with Nihilus has cut the force bond that the Exile shared with Kreia. The Exile is probably not consciously aware of this, but does instictively know it on a subsconscious level.

 

And that sort of subconscious knowledge marks a lot of the relationship between the Exile and Nihilus IMHO. It always struck me as odd that the Exile never looked at Nihilus' face - they were both on Malachor V, so it might have been someone he knew, but the Exile never looks - he just tells Visas to get the mask, then asks her what she saw... I think it's because he already knew and didn't want to face the truth.

 

And kind of a side topic - I wish we could have been able to equip that mask

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If my theory is correct, we may yet see that in K3.

[DAWUSS]

It does explain one thing, though - when Kreia surrenders herself to Atris, Exile mentions that Atris will kill Kreia, since she is Sith, and since the Exile is linked to Kreia, he/she will also die. That's a primary reason why the Exile hastens to Telos. And Atris says that Kreia waits for the Exile on Malachor V, and if he/she doesn't come, she will kill herself and thereby kill the Exile as well. Yet upon reaching Malachor V, nobody seems to worry about it anymore, and Kreia does indeed die without consequence for the Exile in the end.

 

Now, I do know that in the cut content master Vash explains that a force bond may be cut if one of the two involved falls to the dark side. I don't think that explains it, however, because Kreia was clearly already jedi, and yet the Exile seemed concerned about the connection when she went meet Atris on Telos. There would be no reason for that, if falling to the dark side would have cut the bond, and yet the concern is reiterated by Atris during the final discussion with her on Telos.

 

Upon reaching Malachor V, this is somehow not a problem anymore... What lies between those two points of the plot? The confrontation with Nihilus. The Exile never expresses concern about the bond after the Nihilus confrontation, which could be because something has happened in the meantime - maybe a reconnection with Nihilus has cut the force bond that the Exile shared with Kreia. The Exile is probably not consciously aware of this, but does instictively know it on a subsconscious level.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think the Force Bond wouldn't have mattered then anyway because defeating Darth Traya was then the Exile's destiny, just like any other Sith relationship, even though the Exile wasn't a Sith (LS)

 

 

"Always two there are

[Jediphile]

I think the Force Bond wouldn't have mattered then anyway because defeating Darth Traya was then the Exile's destiny, just like any other Sith relationship, even though the Exile wasn't a Sith (LS)

 

 

"Always two there are

[DAWUSS]

Hmmm, I thought it had always been like that. I stand corrected.

 

 

I think that right before she dies, when she mentions of the Exile's future, I think she somehow saved her, however slightly it may be, and when she killed her, she adds her power to the Exile in a manner similar to how Obi-Wan transferred his to Luke when he committed suicide at the hands of Darth Vader on the Death Star.

 

I think even Sion cares about the Exile at the end (I'm speaking from the LS female perspective here [dunno about the male]) as he doesn't want her heading towards Kreia, fearing she will turn the Exile into another version of himself, and he even admits that she's "beautful to him" .

 

I think the Exile's future is pretty well written in the Korriban tomb and in Kreia's visions. And it makes it appear like KOTOR III is going to be as dark as ROTS...