Was Kreia Evil?

[Lord Tingeling]

I honestly cannot see how Revan's actions made the galaxy - Republic and  Sith - better able to resist an external threat.  He drove the two factions into all-out war, leaving both devastated with much of their military gone and the Republic's economy in ruins.  If anything, Revan's actions look more like those of an agent of the True Sith/external threat, fomenting chaos before the invasion begins.  Same goes for Kreia.

 

Ever heard of... wait for it... Darth Malak?

 

Put Revan in proper context, for once. At the end of the jedi civil war, the republic was in ruins, true. This was not what Revan intended (again, if official K2 canon is to be trusted)- ask G0-T0 about the change in tactics between the Revan era of the war and the Malak era if you're in doubt.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Ever heard of... wait for it... Darth Malak?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, and I'm well aware of who decided to make Darth Malak her apprentice. That was Revan's choice, and if Malak goes insane after her death and starts blowing up the galaxy, Revan bears a fair amount of the responsibility for that. She knew what he was. She put a vicious madman in a position of power where he order millions of deaths. Tell me again how good she was.

Put Revan in proper context, for once. At the end of the jedi civil war, the republic was in ruins, true. This was not what Revan intended (again, if official K2 canon is to be trusted)- ask G0-T0 about the change in tactics between the Revan era of the war and the Malak era if you're in doubt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure she didn't want it in ruins - she wanted it united and strong and with her in control. Only a madman like Malak would deliberately seek to destroy the territory he hopes to rule soon. If Revan had truly been concerned with saving the galaxy I don't believe she would have chosen the path she did. She wanted to save the galaxy from the True Sith so that she could have power for herself. That's evil.

 

As I said, I'm willing to concede that we can't know this for sure, until we know exactly who and what the True Sith threat is. But if they're any kind of conventional military or Sith-like threat, then I think Revan's actions just weakened the ability of the galaxy to defend itself.

 

Edit: I'm going to shift this over to the Is Revan Evil? thread - my original comment was making a comparison between Revan and Kreia, but now we're too far off topic.

[Los Wackos]

Which is one reason (among others) why I think he was lightside, despite what he said.  He sides with you as a LS and tries to kill you as a DS.  A truly neutral person would have stood by and watched.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Being neutral doesn't equal being some static dolt, never doing anything.

[Dark Moth]

Which is one reason (among others) why I think he was lightside, despite what he said.  He sides with you as a LS and tries to kill you as a DS.  A truly neutral person would have stood by and watched.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Being neutral doesn't equal being some static dolt, never doing anything.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

True, but his intentions sided with the lightside. He warns you (as a DS) that the darkside leads to death in the end, or something like that, and he tries to stop you. Having thought over most of his actions, I think he was very lightside, despite what he tried to make you think. If he were truly neutral, he would be unjudging and let you make your own decisions, even to side with Bastila and join the Sith.

[Weaponmaster303]

Exactly mothman

[LordRahl33]

Anyone who wants to destroy all living things is evil in my book. She deeals in absolutes too much, She Hates the force so she wants to destroy all life? Definetly not a nice person.

[Grant Dempsey]

Anyone who wants to destroy all living things is evil in my book. She deeals in absolutes too much, She Hates the force so she wants to destroy all life? Definetly not a nice person.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She never wanted to destroy all life.

[Calax]

destroying the force is essencially the same thing, everything weather force sensitive or not depens on the force. Except for the Yasamaniri

[Grant Dempsey]

destroying the force is essencially the same thing, everything weather force sensitive or not depens on the force. Except for the Yasamaniri

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kreia never really wanted to "destroy the Force" in the way it seems most people would think. Her ultimate goal was not to end all life everywhere; heck, she even criticized Darth Nihilus for spreading such death across the galaxy. Kreia's goal -- or rather, her dream, her hope, her personal vision for the galaxy -- was essentially for life to be "freed" from the influence and manipulation of the will of the Force, to be forced to live without the Force.

[dufflover]

..."freed" from the influence and manipulation of the will of the Force, to be forced to live without the Force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Force "flows through all of us, it binds the galaxy together" (something like that) - Kreia may have been insane/delusional evil but that's still bad nevertheless.

[Weaponmaster303]

I agree duff and Im starting to believe kreia really is bad. In the beginning when she went to malachor maybe not but later on I really now believe that kreia was evil its just that even the exile though a wound still needed the force to some degree.

[metadigital]

..."freed" from the influence and manipulation of the will of the Force, to be forced to live without the Force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Force "flows through all of us, it binds the galaxy together" (something like that) - Kreia may have been insane/delusional evil but that's still bad nevertheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No no no no! Kreia was the first, the greatest and the one true prophet!

 

She Knew that the force was controlling ever being, for its own secret agenda. There was no chance for the Great Liberation of the universe with th Force still in control. We must all FIGHT the evil tyranny of the Force; it is the only true way we can be FREE, freedom of choice, freedom to make our own destiny.

 

Kreia will be proved right, and the disciples of Kreia, the Anti-Force Force, adepts of Force-Non-sensitives (like the Echani and Miruluka) will do battle against the ignorant tools of the Force, the jedi and Sith, who battle evermore in a yin-yang cycle that only results in the Force growing towards its own self-actualisation.

 

And at what cost? How many lives must be lost in this self-gratifying orgy of Force onanism? When will the death and suffering of the universe be unshackled from the secret agenda of some powerful puppetmaster?

 

JOIN US!

[Weaponmaster303]

Lol never by supportin the non force activist wat will happen to my dear bastila and what about revan nooooo.

 

I jus wish k2 would of explained the echo thing in the exile better did it heal or not and how would his wound kill the force.

[Grant Dempsey]

The Force "flows through all of us, it binds the galaxy together" (something like that) - Kreia may have been insane/delusional evil but that's still bad nevertheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't just shrug everything aside like that.

 

What about the Exile? He was the living representation of what Kreia would have wanted for the galaxy as a whole. He had severed all of his ties to the Force, so much so that his only hope of rebuilding his connection with it was to do so through a Force bond with another being (Kreia), yet...he still lived, even without it. That was exactly why the Exile was so important to Kreia. It was proof, to her, that life could exist without the Force, that it was at least possible, which gave her hope. She had no interest in destroying all life everywhere. In fact, compassion on some level was what drove her "vision for the galaxy" to begin with, as she loathed the Force for imposing its will upon the galaxy solely to achieve some form of "balance" while letting so many die in the process.

 

I don't even like to call her "insane" or "delusional" because all it does is take away from the point of her character and to serve as an excuse to conveniently shrug aside things she has said.

 

Really, in my opinion, she never had any intention of or "plan" for destroying the Force. It was her personal vision for "a better galaxy", yes...her dream and hope, yes...but not her ultimate goal over the course of the game. She didn't lure the Exile to Malachor V to "use him to kill the Force". She lured the Exile to Malachor V because it was to be his "final test": Confronting both Kreia and the Malachor V from his past. Her "ultimate goal" was to die by the Exile's hands, as the final step in his training.

[Dark Moth]

I do believe that Kreia may have been good before Malachor V. But after her corruption and being betrayed by the Jedi, she turned evil. I think at the time she was hiding behind a mask of neutrality, or she really did believe she was neutral despite her true nature.

[SteveThaiBinh]

I do believe that Kreia may have been good before Malachor V.  But after her corruption and being betrayed by the Jedi, she turned evil.  I think at the time she was hiding behind a mask of neutrality, or she really did believe she was neutral despite her true nature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. Before Malachor V, she probably was good in the Jolee Bindo sense - always asking questions, challenging the assumptions of the Jedi masters, genuinely trying to open her students' minds to new ideas. But on Malachor she found the wrong answers, and stopped asking the right questions. After that, whether as a Sith Lord or exiled from both sides, she went on to make more and more evil choices.

[jodo kast 5]

I do believe that Kreia may have been good before Malachor V.  But after her corruption and being betrayed by the Jedi, she turned evil.  I think at the time she was hiding behind a mask of neutrality, or she really did believe she was neutral despite her true nature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. Before Malachor V, she probably was good in the Jolee Bindo sense - always asking questions, challenging the assumptions of the Jedi masters, genuinely trying to open her students' minds to new ideas. But on Malachor she found the wrong answers, and stopped asking the right questions. After that, whether as a Sith Lord or exiled from both sides, she went on to make more and more evil choices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you should have named yourself SteveThaiSmart cause thats exactly what you are 15 brownies for you!

[dufflover]

but did the Exile really survive without the Force

[metadigital]

The Force "flows through all of us, it binds the galaxy together" (something like that) - Kreia may have been insane/delusional evil but that's still bad nevertheless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can't just shrug everything aside like that.

 

What about the Exile? He was the living representation of what Kreia would have wanted for the galaxy as a whole. He had severed all of his ties to the Force, so much so that his only hope of rebuilding his connection with it was to do so through a Force bond with another being (Kreia), yet...he still lived, even without it. That was exactly why the Exile was so important to Kreia. It was proof, to her, that life could exist without the Force, that it was at least possible, which gave her hope. She had no interest in destroying all life everywhere. In fact, compassion on some level was what drove her "vision for the galaxy" to begin with, as she loathed the Force for imposing its will upon the galaxy solely to achieve some form of "balance" while letting so many die in the process.

 

I don't even like to call her "insane" or "delusional" because all it does is take away from the point of her character and to serve as an excuse to conveniently shrug aside things she has said.

 

Really, in my opinion, she never had any intention of or "plan" for destroying the Force. It was her personal vision for "a better galaxy", yes...her dream and hope, yes...but not her ultimate goal over the course of the game. She didn't lure the Exile to Malachor V to "use him to kill the Force". She lured the Exile to Malachor V because it was to be his "final test": Confronting both Kreia and the Malachor V from his past. Her "ultimate goal" was to die by the Exile's hands, as the final step in his training.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice theory, but the Exile's training for what?

[metadigital]

I do believe that Kreia may have been good before Malachor V.  But after her corruption and being betrayed by the Jedi, she turned evil.  I think at the time she was hiding behind a mask of neutrality, or she really did believe she was neutral despite her true nature.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. Before Malachor V, she probably was good in the Jolee Bindo sense - always asking questions, challenging the assumptions of the Jedi masters, genuinely trying to open her students' minds to new ideas. But on Malachor she found the wrong answers, and stopped asking the right questions. After that, whether as a Sith Lord or exiled from both sides, she went on to make more and more evil choices.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kreia was, at worst, amoral, not immoral and evil. Big difference, because Kreia is more a chaotic good; she seeks to save the universe from eternal slavery, shackled to the monstrously meglomaniacal Force: Kreia is single-minded, not evil.

 

You'll see, when you realise your destiny is controlled by something else, and you are just a actor forced to follow a script written by someone else for their own benefit. ...

[metadigital]

but did the Exile really survive without the Force

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. Exile is alive. Exile had no Force. Ergo, Exile survived without the Force. :D

[Grant Dempsey]

Nice theory, but the Exile's training for what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, it's not actually a "theory"; at least, not the part about Kreia having sought to train the Exile. Did you follow her dialogue trees on Malachor V? It was what she was doing throughout much of the game, with all her "lies" and manipulations, whilst taking care of "other things" along the way.

 

Kreia's "ultimate goal" was quite simply to train the Exile, to forge him into the greatest of her apprentices. Her hope beyond that was that the Exile would choose to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions to assist him in confronting the "True" Sith, but she did not seek to actually impose that hope upon him. It was enough of a reward to her that he had surpassed her at all.

[Iseo Tiakan]

However, I don't think stopping the Force is her only goal.  She was also concerned with helping Revan defeat the True Sith and returning peace and balance to the galaxy.

 

Then again, it may be partly for this reason that she wants to kill the Force in the first place. With Revan gone and his fate uncertain, she may have decided that the only sure way to stop the True Sith is to cut off the source of their power.

[LordRahl33]

Lol never by supportin the non force activist wat will happen to my dear bastila and what about revan nooooo.

 

I jus wish k2 would of explained the echo thing in the exile better did it heal or not and how would his wound kill the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dont think that the echo was a wound, as all the masters thought, but it was just a change, a new kind of power through the force. His wound would kill the force the same way that the crazy Sith lord who devoured worlds would If he had thrived off of it. but I think that the years of exile may have allowed him to center himself and control the hunger for force users. I dunno The JEdi masters touch on it alittle bit on dantooine, and Kreia talks about it too.

[metadigital]

Nice theory, but the Exile's training for what?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, it's not actually a "theory"; at least, not the part about Kreia having sought to train the Exile. Did you follow her dialogue trees on Malachor V? It was what she was doing throughout much of the game, with all her "lies" and manipulations, whilst taking care of "other things" along the way.

 

Kreia's "ultimate goal" was quite simply to train the Exile, to forge him into the greatest of her apprentices. Her hope beyond that was that the Exile would choose to follow Revan into the Unknown Regions to assist him in confronting the "True" Sith, but she did not seek to actually impose that hope upon him. It was enough of a reward to her that he had surpassed her at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, read it and wrote it out and studied it. It's all very poorly written, and is very cclose to meaningless gibberish: nice sounding philosobabble that contradicts itself -- even in the same speech, in adjacent paragraphs.

 

So Kreia just wanted to train the Exile to defeat her in combat.

 

And why did the Exile have to go and face Kreia in the first place? Why not just go off and save the Republic from the real "True" -- I really mean it this time -- Sith?

 

(Hint: Atris provides the motivation by saying that if the Exile does not go and face her, Kreia will kill herself and the force-bond will have the effect of killing the Exile on M5 -- even though the Exile is not there -- which will "kill the Force". Which is patently nonsensical. And if Kreia could kill the Exile via killing herself, what would this prove? And if she couldn't, what would she do then -- chance after the Exile beyond the Outer RIm?)

 

Meh.