Kotor 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[Plano Skywalker]

Dosnt have much to do with KOTORI and II's plots, but as a less scripted adventure it certainly has possibilities. If you were a Padawan you could either set out to destroy Exar (or learn from him which would involve doing various tasks for him mirror image of things you would be doing to stop him).

 

In the end he would either betray you , or you he. Or you would become a powerful enough Jedi to reseal him.

 

So the continuity wouldnt be damaged at all as far as I can see. But I'm by no means an EU buff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if they go back to the Sith War era, then Exar is still a living man. The idea is that Exar was so powerful that the Republic decided to just bomb Yavin 4 from orbit and kill him through attrition because no one could stand up to him with lightsaber.

 

The PC would be helping the Republic find out where he is, and help map out the bombardment, etc. You wouldn't even have to be a Jedi to do these things.

 

I must confess that I do not understand the whole ownership business in the EU. People saying that you can't mention Nomi Sunrider because of an ownership issue...seems to me that LFL (if not LA) could find a way to do it if they really wanted to. That is the thing, though, LFL has so far not been heavily involved in this, it appears.

 

 

I'm a much bigger fan of the some poor smuck being in the wrong place than being some sort of chosen one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

absolutley!

[Jediphile]

I must confess that I do not understand the whole ownership business in the EU.  People saying that you can't mention Nomi Sunrider because of an ownership issue...seems to me that LFL (if not LA) could find a way to do it if they really wanted to.  That is the thing, though, LFL has so far not been heavily involved in this, it appears.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If I understand it correctly, it has do with Nomi and certain other characters being the intellectual property of Tom Veitch and Kevin J. Anderson since they wrote the original Tales of the Jedi comic books, where these charcters were introduced. Or maybe it belongs to Dark Horse, because they published those books.

 

That probably doesn't mean that using those characters are impossible to use, but Lucasarts and the developer would most likel have to pay royalties or whatever to the people involved, and we know what that means... "

 

Still, I admit that I'm not certain about this and could be quite mistaken - I just seem to recall something to that effect being said at some point.

[Darth Nuke]

Dosnt have much to do with KOTORI and II's plots, but as a less scripted adventure it certainly has possibilities. If you were a Padawan you could either set out to destroy Exar (or learn from him which would involve doing various tasks for him mirror image of things you would be doing to stop him).

 

In the end he would either betray you , or you he. Or you would become a powerful enough Jedi to reseal him.

 

So the continuity wouldnt be damaged at all as far as I can see. But I'm by no means an EU buff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, if they go back to the Sith War era, then Exar is still a living man. The idea is that Exar was so powerful that the Republic decided to just bomb Yavin 4 from orbit and kill him through attrition because no one could stand up to him with lightsaber.

 

The PC would be helping the Republic find out where he is, and help map out the bombardment, etc. You wouldn't even have to be a Jedi to do these things.

 

I must confess that I do not understand the whole ownership business in the EU. People saying that you can't mention Nomi Sunrider because of an ownership issue...seems to me that LFL (if not LA) could find a way to do it if they really wanted to. That is the thing, though, LFL has so far not been heavily involved in this, it appears.

 

 

I'm a much bigger fan of the some poor smuck being in the wrong place than being some sort of chosen one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

absolutley!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Republic didn't bombard Yavin. The 10's of thousands of Jedi gathered over the planet and used the force to lock Exar Kuns spirit inside the great temple. This caused the whole world of Yavin to go up in flame(it's ok now though).

 

The issue with Vima Sunrider is simple. The name Sunrider is copyrighted.

 

As such the right have to be gained by LFL in order to use it. However I don't really see the problem since Vima could go by Master Vima or just plain Vima in the next game.

[GhostofAnakin]

The issue with Vima Sunrider is simple. The name Sunrider is copyrighted.

 

As such the right have to be gained by LFL in order to use it. However I don't really see the problem since Vima could go by Master Vima or just plain Vima in the next game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm not sure if it's already been said, but who owns the copyright to the name Sunrider? I don't get why LFL can use the name in comics, or mentioned in stories, but can't use it in a video game.

[Jediphile]

I'm not sure if it's already been said, but who owns the copyright to the name Sunrider?  I don't get why LFL can use the name in comics, or mentioned in stories, but can't use it in a video game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

At the risk of repeating myself, it is likely to be Tom Veitch, since he wrote the original Tales of the Jedi and so created those characters. Or it could be Dark Horse, since they published them.

 

Correction: Kevin J. Andersen probably has no rights on the Sunrider name, since he was not involved in the early comics - he wasn't involved until the "Dark Lords of the Sith" series, when both the original five issues of Tales (two issues of "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beastrider of Onderon" and three issues of "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider", all later collected under the title "Knights of the Old Republic") and the two-issue "Freedon Nadd Uprising" had all already been written by Tom Veitch. I believe there is also a reference to Vima in the six-issue "Dark Empire" series, also written by Tom Veitch, before that.

[GhostofAnakin]

At the risk of repeating myself, it is likely to be Tom Veitch, since he wrote the original Tales of the Jedi and so created those characters. Or it could be Dark Horse, since they published them.

 

Correction: Kevin J. Andersen probably has no rights on the Sunrider name, since he was not involved in the early comics - he wasn't involved until the "Dark Lords of the Sith" series, when both the original five issues of Tales (two issues of "Ulic Qel-Droma and the Beastrider of Onderon" and three issues of "The Saga of Nomi Sunrider", all later collected under the title "Knights of the Old Republic") and the two-issue "Freedon Nadd Uprising" had all already been written by Tom Veitch. I believe there is also a reference to Vima in the six-issue "Dark Empire" series, also written by Tom Veitch, before that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But how does he get away with that, since Lucasfilm's policy has always been that anything Star Wars related that is published thus becomes their property. Or knowing Lucasfilm, if Veitch trademarked it, why would they keep using the name in continuity?

 

I also can't see Veitch having the trademark. If he does, does that mean that Timothy Zahn has the trademark to Thrawn, Mara Jade and Talon Karrde? Does Stackpole have the trademark to Corran Horn? I just find it implausible that LFL would either a)use a character who is trademarked, or b)allow a character in their stories to be trademarked by someone other than them. I don't see the logic behind it.

[Plano Skywalker]

But how does he get away with that, since Lucasfilm's policy has always been that anything Star Wars related that is published thus becomes their property.  Or knowing Lucasfilm, if Veitch trademarked it, why would they keep using the name in continuity?

 

I also can't see Veitch having the trademark.  If he does, does that mean that Timothy Zahn has the trademark to Thrawn, Mara Jade and Talon Karrde?  Does Stackpole have the trademark to Corran Horn?  I just find it implausible that LFL would either a)use a character who is trademarked, or b)allow a character in their stories to be trademarked by someone other than them.  I don't see the logic behind it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

excellent point...if I were to write a novel based on the Warhammer 40K universe, then anything in that novel would be the intellectual property of Games Workshop since it is a derivative work. However, I could talk to them ahead of time and try to get them to allow me to have certain special privileges to be granted to me in a legal document.

 

another thing is the word "copyright". if you write a poem (or any work that could be considered creative) the work is automatically copyrighted upon completion of the work....copyright is the easiest intellectual property protection to obtain and the hardest to enforce.

[Plano Skywalker]

in practice, I think the whole thing about "that name is copyrighted" is to scare off the new novelist from borrowing someone else's character. Same thing is probably true for certain planets.

 

but if LFL wanted to use a character (or any derivative element) they could do so without any problem.

[GhostofAnakin]

but if LFL wanted to use a character (or any derivative element) they could do so without any problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But that contradicts what Lucasarts (and Chris Avellone) stated about BioWare's reasons for not being allowed to us Vima Sunrider, thus settling on Bastila Shan instead.

[Plano Skywalker]

but if LFL wanted to use a character (or any derivative element) they could do so without any problem.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But that contradicts what Lucasarts (and Chris Avellone) stated about BioWare's reasons for not being allowed to us Vima Sunrider, thus settling on Bastila Shan instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

well, I'm speculating here but I think it has to do with the fact the LA doesn't have much leverage with such things....without intervention from LFL, LA is just another "novelist" out there.

 

unless a special arrangement was made, LFL owns any and all derivative works based on Star Wars.

[GhostofAnakin]

well, I'm speculating here but I think it has to do with the fact the LA doesn't have much leverage with such things....without intervention from LFL, LA is just another "novelist" out there.

 

unless a special arrangement was made, LFL owns any and all derivative works based on Star Wars.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lucasarts is just the videogame segment of LFL. So I don't know why one would have trouble getting the rights to something the other has full control over.

[Plano Skywalker]

Lucasarts is just the videogame segment of LFL.  So I don't know why one would have trouble getting the rights to something the other has full control over.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

while that makes sense, I don't think that is what was going on. now that they are all in the same campus area, that kind of collaboration is more likely, I believe.

[Calax]

doesn't the copywrite and all that other stuff run out after a certain amount of time?

[metadigital]

Copyright

[Jediphile]

But how does he get away with that, since Lucasfilm's policy has always been that anything Star Wars related that is published thus becomes their property.  Or knowing Lucasfilm, if Veitch trademarked it, why would they keep using the name in continuity?

 

I also can't see Veitch having the trademark.  If he does, does that mean that Timothy Zahn has the trademark to Thrawn, Mara Jade and Talon Karrde?  Does Stackpole have the trademark to Corran Horn?  I just find it implausible that LFL would either a)use a character who is trademarked, or b)allow a character in their stories to be trademarked by someone other than them.  I don't see the logic behind it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I don't know. I was just speculating because I know they couldn't use Nomi in KotOR1, but it may just as well be that Lucasarts just didn't want to commit those characters to a computer game. After all, Nomi would come with a lot of history that gamers might know nothing about, while fans of the comic books would suddenly wonder about later references to her association with Revan, if more comic books were made about her after the events of KotOR1 in the timeline.

 

If Lucasfilm's policy is that anything published as Star Wars becomes their property, then it's unlikely Veitch would own anything, and neither would Dark Horse. It doesn't seem that Zahn owns much, either - he created Mara Jade, yet I doubt anyone asked him about how she has subsequently been used in both comic books and, particularly, the novels (not that I'm implying dislike for them - I know some people hate those novels and Mara Jade's role in them, but I'm not one of them).

[EnderAndrew]

They use the names of various characters from the comics in KOTOR:1 and KOTOR:2. I think the main reason Naomi Sunrider didn't appear in KOTOR:1 is that she would be 1,000 years old, as KOTOR the game takes place 1,000 years after the comics.

[Jediphile]

They use the names of various characters from the comics in KOTOR:1 and KOTOR:2.  I think the main reason Naomi Sunrider didn't appear in KOTOR:1 is that she would be 1,000 years old, as KOTOR the game takes place 1,000 years after the comics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Er, no. Sorry, but you're mistaking the age of KotOR with the age of Naga Sadow. It's true that some of the Tales of the Jedi comic books (the "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire" series) do take place around 5000 before the Battle of Yavin, but the other Tales of the Jedi stories (the original five issues and the "Freedon Nadd Uprising", "Dark Lords of the Sith", "Sith War", and "Redemption" series) all take place about a thousand years after around 4000 before the Battle of Yavin (bBY).

 

The earliest of these (the original five issues about Ulic and Nomi) take place 4000 bBY, while the last ("Redemption") takes place place around 3986 bBY. The "Sith War" was set around 3996 bBY, and since KotOR1 takes place about 50 years later, it probably takes place around 3956 bBY and KotOR2 around 3951 bBY. I'd say Nomi was still in her 20s during the Sith War, which would put her in her 70s or 80s at the time of the KotOR games. She might have died of old age by then, but she also might still be alive.

 

Even if we discount the timeline speculation, it's still clear that Nomi could not have lived a thousand years before, since the only time we hear of her in KotOR1 is when Jolee remembers her, which would be impossible unless he is a thousand years old himself...

[metadigital]

They use the names of various characters from the comics in KOTOR:1 and KOTOR:2.  I think the main reason Naomi Sunrider didn't appear in KOTOR:1 is that she would be 1,000 years old, as KOTOR the game takes place 1,000 years after the comics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Er, no. Sorry, but you're mistaking the age of KotOR with the age of Naga Sadow. It's true that some of the Tales of the Jedi comic books (the "Golden Age of the Sith" and "Fall of the Sith Empire" series) do take place around 5000 before the Battle of Yavin, but the other Tales of the Jedi stories (the original five issues and the "Freedon Nadd Uprising", "Dark Lords of the Sith", "Sith War", and "Redemption" series) all take place about a thousand years after around 4000 before the Battle of Yavin (bBY).

 

The earliest of these (the original five issues about Ulic and Nomi) take place 4000 bBY, while the last ("Redemption") takes place place around 3986 bBY. The "Sith War" was set around 3996 bBY, and since KotOR1 takes place about 50 years later, it probably takes place around 3956 bBY and KotOR2 around 3951 bBY. I'd say Nomi was still in her 20s during the Sith War, which would put her in her 70s or 80s at the time of the KotOR games. She might have died of old age by then, but she also might still be alive.

 

Even if we discount the timeline speculation, it's still clear that Nomi could not have lived a thousand years before, since the only time we hear of her in KotOR1 is when Jolee remembers her, which would be impossible unless he is a thousand years old himself...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which all goes to prove that GL is not really interested in continuity; he is barely able to provide it for two consecutive films, let alone encompassing all the EU. From what I see, GL is more interested in making (poorly researched) references to them, to appear like there is a larger universe of work, because of the scarcity of LA's success.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if LA had Revan appearing after RotJ. :D

[GhostofAnakin]

I wouldn't be surprised if LA had Revan appearing after RotJ.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You didn't see him? He had a short cameo peeking in Palpatine's window when the old man was changing robes.

[GhostofAnakin]

BTW, I think BioWare originally intended to use Nomi's daughter (Vima?) instead of Bastila, not Nomi.

[Jediphile]

Which all goes to prove that GL is not really interested in continuity; he is barely able to provide it for two consecutive films, let alone encompassing all the EU. From what I see, GL is more interested in making (poorly researched) references to them, to appear like there is a larger universe of work, because of the scarcity of LA's success.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if LA had Revan appearing after RotJ.  :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What on Earth are you babbling about?!? We can flame GL all we want and for many reasons, but what has been said here that deserves that? This part of Star Wars continuity actually seems fairly consistent.

[metadigital]

What on Earth are you babbling about?!? We can flame GL all we want and for many reasons, but what has been said here that deserves that? This part of Star Wars continuity actually seems fairly consistent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ooo, touchy!

 

I was making a general comment on the state of the continuity of the EU, as it is handled by GL. Every time he makes a new film, he completely ignores any continuity restrictions in order to expediently deliver the new revisionist view of SW that appeals to him on the moment.

 

And the continuity is consistent because ...? Where are the missing Sunriders? I put it to you that the only reason GL hasn't contradicted the continuity of this period is because he hasn't made any significant contribution to it, yet.

 

What's wrong, "Jediphile" ( ), don't like anyone criticising "The Gospel according to St George"?

[Jediphile]

What on Earth are you babbling about?!? We can flame GL all we want and for many reasons, but what has been said here that deserves that? This part of Star Wars continuity actually seems fairly consistent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ooo, touchy!

 

I was making a general comment on the state of the continuity of the EU, as it is handled by GL. Every time he makes a new film, he completely ignores any continuity restrictions in order to expediently deliver the new revisionist view of SW that appeals to him at the moment.

 

And the continuity is consistent because ...? Wher are the missing Sunriders? I put it to you that the only reason GL hasn't contradicted the continuity of this period is because he hasn't made any significant contribution to it, yet.

 

What's wrong, "Jediphile" ( ), don't like anyone criticising "The Gospel according to St George"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not at all, "Mentaldigital", I'll criticize Lucas whenever I think he does something wrong. By the time of the movies the Sunriders are 4000 years into the past - why should they have any significance at that time, much less be remembered at all?

 

As I said, we have plenty of ammunition to use against Lucas already, but here is actually an area where there is no inconsistency, so what's the problem?

 

You'd have far more ammunition if you accused Lucas for allowing Zahn to place the events leading to the devastation of the Noghri (sp?) homeworld more than 40 years into the past with references to the civil war between the Empire and the Rebellion, when Lucas then later sets the fall of the old republic later than that. But the point you have chosen to blame Lucas for here is unfair, since there is actually no inconsistency.

[Jediphile]

BTW, I think BioWare originally intended to use Nomi's daughter (Vima?) instead of Bastila, not Nomi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ah, okay. I was wondering, and didn't remember if the original idea was for Vima or Nomi herself. We don't know much about Vima's life as a jedi, but Nomi did indeed have the jedi ability for Battle Meditation.

 

So when I heard of the original intent for Bastila, I thought they might have meant her, but be denied the use of her and then decided to push the plot 50 years into the future, so that they wouldn't have to deal with "Tales of the Jedi" characters that they weren't allowed to use anyway.

 

Hmm, there might even be some truth to that assumption, since Vima would have been 50 to 60 years in KotOR1 otherwise... Not much of romance that will sell games there, I think...

[metadigital]

What on Earth are you babbling about?!? We can flame GL all we want and for many reasons, but what has been said here that deserves that? This part of Star Wars continuity actually seems fairly consistent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ooo, touchy!

 

I was making a general comment on the state of the continuity of the EU, as it is handled by GL. Every time he makes a new film, he completely ignores any continuity restrictions in order to expediently deliver the new revisionist view of SW that appeals to him at the moment.

 

And the continuity is consistent because ...? Wher are the missing Sunriders? I put it to you that the only reason GL hasn't contradicted the continuity of this period is because he hasn't made any significant contribution to it, yet.

 

What's wrong, "Jediphile" ( ), don't like anyone criticising "The Gospel according to St George"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not at all, [Metaldigital], I'll criticize Lucas whenever I think he does something wrong. By the time of the movies the Sunriders are 4000 years into the past - why should they have any significance at that time, much less be remembered at all?

 

As I said, we have plenty of ammunition to use against Lucas already, but here is actually an area where there is no inconsistency, so what's the problem?

[snip fanboy rant]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(In case it's not blatantly obvious, I am not interested in one scintilla of the EU.)

BTW, I think BioWare originally intended to use Nomi's daughter (Vima?) instead of Bastila, not Nomi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, okay. I was wondering, and didn't remember if the original idea was for Vima or Nomi herself. We don't know much about Vima's life as a jedi, but Nomi did indeed have the jedi ability for Battle Meditation.

 

So when I heard of the original intent for Bastila, I thought they might have meant her, but be denied the use of her and then decided to push the plot 50 years into the future, so that they wouldn't have to deal with "Tales of the Jedi" characters that they weren't allowed to use anyway.

 

Hmm, there might even be some truth to that assumption, since Vima would have been 50 to 60 years in KotOR1 otherwise... Not much of romance that will sell games there, I think...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the continuity disagreement I was referring to, "Jedisycophant", the one that LucasArts has created in the KotOR universe.