Kotor 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

well, perhaps these particular changes would be best pioneered on a non-SW title.  I guess it's just that K2, IMO, really was dialogue-heavy and introduced a pretty advanced Influence system.  but the system is incomplete in so many ways (especially as it relates to alignment) and, hence, discussions like this.

 

I think we are going to see a trend in cRPGs to follow the alignment barometer thing (i.e. Jade Empire's Open Palm/Closed Fist thing)....but, ideally, we will have other indicators as well to help compartmentalize what is going on (and, yes, this increases the workload by alot, I agree).

 

I also like the idea of a "Reputation" indicator (as was used in Pirates!).  But, anyway, first things first, as they say.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I can see it happening in New Jersey. One thing you couldnt criticise PST for was the level of dialogue. Although how that will work in a full VO game (or even a partial VO game have to wait and see). One of the core things of the influence system as it relates to KOTOR II is the protagonist. You always have to bear that in mind when making any judgements. And how it might work in a different game.

 

The open palm/closed first thing would have been ok if it didnt just turn out to be another name for good and evil. It rather missed the point and ruined one of the things that was supposed to set the game appart from KOTOR. Having an evil emporer and a Darth clone didnt help matters either.. Many was the time I got the feeling I was playing a KOTOR TC rather than a new game.

 

Fallout used reputation and Karma so it's not like you dont have anything to draw on in that respect. Reputation is generally better where you have areas that dont communicate otherwise you may as well say yourself the effort and go for a universal scale.

[EnderAndrew]

I think Star Wars is like a spaghetti-western with clear-cut good and evil for the most part, but Han Solo was certainly a criminal despite being a hero.

 

Who do relate with more, Solo or Luke?

 

I think Star Wars has always had more room for tough choices, especially when dealing with the Force and mysticism in general. I think MCA did a good job with KOTOR by exploring the repercussions of actions.

 

The Jedi looked like total cowards and fools for not helping fight the Mandalorians. But if deep down they knew that fighting that war would only pull Jedi into the Sith, and a greater threat, then maybe they were right not to go.

 

If they knew the deaths on Malachor V would threaten to destroy the Force, then maybe they were right to hold back.

 

Maybe they were wrong to let things escalate that far.

 

However, we see trends were wielding the Force and exerting your power can sometimes cause more problems than it fixes.

 

In the end, Yoda and Obi-Wan spent their elder years in seclusion. Some say it was only out of fear. Maybe a part of it was realizing that by meddling with galactic affairs, Jedi sometimes make things worse for the wear.

 

Was the Exile right for defying the Jedi? Was it worth it to help in largescale battles and lead to the deaths of so many? Is that really the path of a Jedi?

 

These are questions that begged to be asked. MCA was bold enough to ask them.

 

The flaw with KOTOR:2 was that we didn't get to spend more time answering these questions. We didn't get closure. I think a good KOTOR:3 done by Obsidian can make KOTOR:2 look much better in retrospect.

 

I didn't want to see more jokes and come-ons. I wanted the final scene with Kreia to be more fufilling. I wanted a little more meat.

 

Torment was a great game because it made you ask what can change the nature of a man. And when you finished the game, you had fully examined that question, and had an answer.

 

KOTOR:2 didn't.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Torment was a great game because it made you ask what can change the nature of a man.  And when you finished the game, you had fully examined that question, and had an answer.

 

KOTOR:2 didn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It also gave you a completely pregenerated and playing it was simply a case on uncovering lost details. I dont think you could pull off PST without a pregen character and I dont think you could pull it of without the old memory wipe trick.

 

I also think my solution of total oblivion beat fighting in the bloodwars

[Darth_Schmarth]

I agree with what you people are saying regarding Immediate Good vs. Greater Good. I personally find this LS/DS flip-flopping business that they have going on in K2 very annoying. Kreia is essentially something you're not supposed to be able to be in Star Wars (not only does she seem able to choose her alignment, she's also waaay to powerful; her killing the Jedi Masters that easily was just plain bad writing). What Obsidian did with K2 was create a Star Wars game that to a large extent contradicts Star Wars "logic" and canon. While their ideas aren't bad at all, they just don't really fit with Star Wars, and what's even worse is that K2 was the sequel of a very Star Warsy game, which it proceeded to light from a completely different angle (i.e. more or less change it, I'm surprised LA actually let all this slide).

 

Star Wars and its romantic idea of good and evil is so established that you can't mess around with it however you see fit. If someone were to make a WW2 game with laser cannons and spaceships, people would immediately say that "while the lasers are really cool they aren't exactly WW2, now are they?". See my point?

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I agree with what you people are saying regarding Immediate Good vs. Greater Good. I personally find this LS/DS flip-flopping business that they have going on in K2 very annoying. Kreia is essentially something you're not supposed to be able to be in Star Wars (not only does she seem able to choose her alignment, she's also waaay to powerful; her killing the Jedi Masters that easily was just plain bad writing). What Obsidian did with K2 was create a Star Wars game that to a large extent contradicts Star Wars "logic" and canon. While their ideas aren't bad at all, they just don't really fit with Star Wars, and what's even worse is that K2 was the sequel of a very Star Warsy game, which it proceeded to light from a completely different angle (i.e. more or less change it, I'm surprised LA actually let all this slide).

 

Star Wars and its romantic idea of good and evil is so established that you can't mess around with it however you see fit. If someone were to make a WW2 game with laser cannons and spaceships, people would immediately say that "while the lasers are really cool they aren't exactly WW2, now are they?". See my point?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LA were very impressed by it. While you could scratch the surface in a 3 hour movie a game without depth isnt particularly interesting. KOTOR II is much more interesting than KOTOR simply because it's not so black and white. KOTORs "ace" was the whole Revan thing, although if you saw through it , well it backfired and became the game railroading you.

 

Totally different thing introducing deeper concepts is nothing like having lasers or other physical items.

Since your doing a WWII comparison. Well KOTOR is the old John Wayne movies and KOTOR II is Saving Private Ryan and Shindlers List. The former present very black and white scenerios and the latter add depth and shades of grey. But all are WWII movies and nothing contradicts the setting.

[Darth_Schmarth]

I agree with what you people are saying regarding Immediate Good vs. Greater Good. I personally find this LS/DS flip-flopping business that they have going on in K2 very annoying. Kreia is essentially something you're not supposed to be able to be in Star Wars (not only does she seem able to choose her alignment, she's also waaay to powerful; her killing the Jedi Masters that easily was just plain bad writing). What Obsidian did with K2 was create a Star Wars game that to a large extent contradicts Star Wars "logic" and canon. While their ideas aren't bad at all, they just don't really fit with Star Wars, and what's even worse is that K2 was the sequel of a very Star Warsy game, which it proceeded to light from a completely different angle (i.e. more or less change it, I'm surprised LA actually let all this slide).

 

Star Wars and its romantic idea of good and evil is so established that you can't mess around with it however you see fit. If someone were to make a WW2 game with laser cannons and spaceships, people would immediately say that "while the lasers are really cool they aren't exactly WW2, now are they?". See my point?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LA were very impressed by it. While you could scratch the surface in a 3 hour movie a game without depth isnt particularly interesting. KOTOR II is much more interesting than KOTOR simply because it's not so black and white. KOTORs "ace" was the whole Revan thing, although if you saw through it , well it backfired and became the game railroading you.

 

Totally different thing introducing deeper concepts is nothing like having lasers or other physical items.

Since your doing a WWII comparison. Well KOTOR is the old John Wayne movies and KOTOR II is Saving Private Ryan and Shindlers List. The former present very black and white scenerios and the latter add depth and shades of grey. But all are WWII movies and nothing contradicts the setting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I'm not saying KotOR2 isn't interesting, it's just that if they were gonna make something as far out as this (from a certain Star Wars point of view), they'd have needed to develop it much further (the game being rushed obviously doesn't help here).

 

Concerning my WW2 comparison, my point seems to have been misunderstood. The WW2 movies you refer too (that aren't any good in the first place, but that's another story) are different in their own right, regardless of what they are about or which setting they use. They are, after all, about a real life event. I was just trying to present an analogy as comprehendable as possible, since everybody knows there weren't spaceships in WW2. If you were to introduce spaceships into WW2, everybody would instantly know that "this is the writer's own input, it's not WW2 and I'm not sure I like it". Sure, some people out there would go "wow, how about that King Tiger with a heavy plasma gun that disintegrates the beaming Red Army soldiers from a distance of 300 kilometers!", but rest assured that I wouldn't.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Well, I'm not saying KotOR2 isn't interesting, it's just that if they were gonna make something as far out as this (from a certain Star Wars point of view), they'd have needed to develop it much further (the game being rushed obviously doesn't help here).

 

Concerning my WW2 comparison, my point seems to have been misunderstood. The WW2 movies you refer too (that aren't any good in the first place, but that's another story) are different in their own right, regardless of what they are about or which setting they use. They are, after all, about a real life event. I was just trying to present an analogy as comprehendable as possible, since everybody knows there weren't spaceships in WW2. If you were to introduce spaceships into WW2, everybody would instantly know that "this is the writer's own input, it's not WW2 and I'm not sure I like it". Sure, some people out there would go "wow, how about that King Tiger with a heavy plasma gun that disintegrates the beaming Red Army soldiers from a distance of 300 kilometers!", but rest assured that I wouldn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think you nailed it. It's only from a certain point of view. Which is very different from not being SW. Your never going to make everyone happy, thats simply a fact of games design.

 

So is KOTORII. It's not introducing anything alien to the setting (like a wizard in pointy hat) but rather it's deepening what already existed.

 

So comparing that to something like a spaceship in a WWII movie dosnt make a whole lot of sense.

[Darth_Schmarth]

So is KOTORII. It's not introducing anything alien to the setting (like a wizard in pointy hat) but rather it's deepening what already existed.

 

So comparing that to something like a spaceship in a WWII movie dosnt make a whole lot of sense.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

See, I think this whole grey Jedi idea is pretty alien to the setting. That's the only point I'm really trying to make here. It's one thing to have Jolee Bindo in K1 living like a hermit in the forest and feeling alienated from the Jedi, but something completely different to have Kreia's absolute immunity to the lure of the Force, the Death-of-the-Force-because-of-one-guy stuff and Darth "I-destroy-entire-planets-because-I'm-so-bitchin'" Nihilus.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

See, I think this whole grey Jedi idea is pretty alien to the setting. That's the only point I'm really trying to make here. It's one thing to have Jolee Bindo in K1 living like a hermit in the forest and feeling alienated from the Jedi, but something completely different to have Kreia's absolute immunity to the lure of the Force, the Death-of-the-Force-because-of-one-guy stuff and Darth "I-destroy-entire-planets-because-I'm-so-bitchin'" Nihilus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That concept has been around since Kyle Kattarn maybe even before that.

[Darth_Schmarth]

See, I think this whole grey Jedi idea is pretty alien to the setting. That's the only point I'm really trying to make here. It's one thing to have Jolee Bindo in K1 living like a hermit in the forest and feeling alienated from the Jedi, but something completely different to have Kreia's absolute immunity to the lure of the Force, the Death-of-the-Force-because-of-one-guy stuff and Darth "I-destroy-entire-planets-because-I'm-so-bitchin'" Nihilus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That concept has been around since Kyle Kattarn maybe even before that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kyle Katarn severed his connection to the Force out of fear of falling to the dark side. Besides, I think Kyle Katarn is a pretty unappealing character too. Having him as your cameo Master in Jedi Academy was partially responsible for a boring story. I can come up with many reasons why JA was dodgy, but that is one of the better examples.

[User Name]

Darth Shmart has basically the same idea as me: things, foreign things which were too fantastic and deviated too much from Star Wars (not believable, too 'out there', not Star Warsy at all etc) were introduced in The Sith Lords.

I myself liked the Sith Lords a lot most of the time, but never loved it as much as KotOR. Many people agree with this.

Now, I'm not one to b**ch about the past, so let us look to the future and hope that KotOR 3 retains Sith Lords' depth while having a very glorious Star Warsy KotOR-1-like kinda game with rip-roaring adventure, great characters and everything we love about Star Wars.

[Plano Skywalker]

[*****SPOILER ALERT!!!!*****]

 

I agree with what you people are saying regarding Immediate Good vs. Greater Good. I personally find this LS/DS flip-flopping business that they have going on in K2 very annoying. Kreia is essentially something you're not supposed to be able to be in Star Wars (not only does she seem able to choose her alignment, she's also waaay to powerful; her killing the Jedi Masters that easily was just plain bad writing). What Obsidian did with K2 was create a Star Wars game that to a large extent contradicts Star Wars "logic" and canon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

IMO, Kreia is the Dark Lord of the Sith. She did not "fall" and become Darth Traya late in the game...she was Darth Traya all along. Now, it is true that her motivations were "non-traditional" for a Sith Lord but she was so far gone to the darkside that she actually thought you could kill the Force (i.e. kill God, kill religion, whatever).

 

I have no problem with Grey Jedi but give NPCs who are grey the same limitation that you give us if we go grey...for instance, no prestige class. Grey Jedi are best utilized at the lower levels. Incidentally, I think Jolee would make a great default Force teacher in K3...but only at the lower levels.

 

I agree that the Kreia character was too powerful in your universe...she was the source of almost all your Force training and was also the source of (or at least involved in) almost all the main story triggers and clues. They definitely need to "break it up" the next time. And, IMO, having the ability to choose my own shipmates and rotate them out....that would be huge. Don't "stick me" with someone like that without me having any say whatsoever.

 

If I don't want any Force mentor, then let me level-up slower than the player who has a mentor. And please, by God, give the LSers and DSers a different pool of teachers, ideally different based on class and technique and not just alignment.

 

If you absolutely, positively want there to be an "overarching" teacher who is with you at all times and is with you regardless of alignment, then might I suggest a Force Ghost for this role. A Master Zhar force ghost (with many of the same lines as Kreia) would have been preferred to someone who you cannot get off your ship and who everyone in your party hates. Trust me, I think the lack of party management in these games is one of the main limitations and will have to be addressed sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Trust me, I think the lack of party management in these games is one of the main limitations and will have to be addressed sooner or later.  Hopefully sooner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not as long as the story is told through the characters. There is simply too much work involved when you dont have character A at point A to do their thing.

[Darth_Schmarth]

IMO, Kreia is the Dark Lord of the Sith.  She did not "fall" and become Darth Traya late in the game...she was Darth Traya all along.  Now, it is true that her motivations were "non-traditional" for a Sith Lord but she was so far gone to the darkside that she actually thought you could kill the Force (i.e. kill God, kill religion, whatever).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is something I have suspected as well. Still don't quite like her, though.

 

If I don't want any Force mentor, then let me level-up slower than the player who has a mentor.  And please, by God, give the LSers and DSers a different pool of teachers, ideally different based on class and technique and not just alignment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. You could start out with a good teacher, but let a Bad Guy come around and try to turn you, or even have the Good Guy fall and leave you with a choice whether to follow him or not.

[Plano Skywalker]

I agree. You could start out with a good teacher, but let a Bad Guy come around and try to turn you, or even have the Good Guy fall and leave you with a choice whether to follow him or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

true...plus, when you go prestige class, your current teacher actually *recommends* that you go see Master Jones OR Master Smith as only they can teach you the higher mysteries of the Force for the class you just took.

[Plano Skywalker]

Trust me, I think the lack of party management in these games is one of the main limitations and will have to be addressed sooner or later.  Hopefully sooner.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Not as long as the story is told through the characters. There is simply too much work involved when you dont have character A at point A to do their thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

OK. this goes back to "inner circle/outer circle"....those NPCs that have something to contribute to the main story cannot be rotated out until they have played their part (i.e. until you have had the key dialogue or seen the key cutscreen, whatever). Some (such as your pilot) cannot be rotated out at all.

 

Also, when you do release them, it doesn't have to be "have a nice life"...it can be "I'll be in Anchorhead in case you need me" kind of thing.

 

There is no reason someone cannot send you a hologram message or a radio transmission either...these other triggers need to be explored for a more immersive experience, IMO.

[Calax]

personally i would love the idea of a teacher for you char. What i would also like to see is the char talk (picking a voice like in NWN) only problem is you would have to record the same dialog several seprate times. But you must admit that this get's to be annoying to hear somone talking as if to thin air... anyway i read the old planet's thead and noticed a couple of thing's. 1 Alderaan didn't go pacifist until AFTER the clone wars ended. 2 Ossus went boom 40 years before Kotor 1, and 3 Kessel is metioned in The jedi academy trilogy. it's actually the setting for The first novel. And yes its' actually is a dungon as metadigital said. It's a prison colony where the prisoner's mine spice. minimal atmosphere and it's based right next to a large black hole cluster. I think the cluster is the set that made Ossus die. If you went there it wouldn't be a very good venue unless it's where your char started as a prisoner who gets busted out. (w00t)

 

 

Hey there's an idea!!!! the Dev's could go back to Revan, Except he's a teacher not a PC, your new char is working with him in the mines there and your force sensitive. I guess if you really wanted to you could put an import feature where you could import your char from Kotor one. He could be like a Bastilia/Kreia Char (cept he could be a "grey Jedi" with no leaning to jedi/sith.) But i guess kessel could be a sith planet at the time He's been caught and forced to work. now considering most of you will be yelling at me about force, I guess Ysalamiri (see thrawn trilogy) could be used to keep him in check. They project a force bubble around themselves as a defense against preditors. What this bubble is is an area without force. this would keep both in check. You could use things like on taris in #1 except you would still be a jedi class. As such you would progress with jedi powers but be unable to use them until out of the influence of a Ysalamiri. hence a taris style intro planet. so Your PC is an apprentice to Revan for the initial training, For the more advanced stuff either you have a party char who's more advanced in the Jedi path (Exile for example) or you could have a static NPC sitting on a planet... still leaves lot's of options.

[Eddo36]

Pazaak is a great mini-game, but please change the 2/3 win requirement to simply 1/1. Otherwise it is too time consuming.

[Weiser_Cain]

Now I hate Pazaak but the best to out of three is what makes it challenging otherwise you'd just tak one draw and try and get to 20 using all the cards in your side deck with no worries about winning the next two hands. That would be even less fun.

[Darth Saul]

I like Pazaak, there should of been a tournament in one of the Kotor games because it would made for a great mini-game. I mean you could make tonnes of creds winning a couple of matches tournament and I think it would make the Kotor series alot more interesting. :D

[Weiser_Cain]

At some point I'd like to be able to fight alongside all my npc's all at once.

[Calax]

i would go for that and i would also like to see several quality enemy's attacking you instead of a hoard of pathetic ones

[Echo_Drive]

Here are my ideas expanding on the subject of Master/Padawan and Master/Apprentice:

 

Lightside: If the PC is training to become a Jedi and does something EVIL and your Master is present then he/she will comment on that evil deed and the PC will lose influence with his/her Master. Then after losing too much influence and gaining 25-50% darkside, your Master will confront you. The PC would have the choice to slay his Master to continue down the path of the darkside forgoing his Jedi training or submitting to your Master's views and be admonished with Jedi Code teachings to regain lightside points.

 

Darkside: If the PC is training to become a Sith and does something GOOD and your Master is present then he/she will comment on that good deed and the PC will lose influence with his/her Master and get punished with lightning and/or choked! Then after losing too much influence and gaining 25-50% lightside, your Master will try to kill you! The PC would have the choice to defend himself/herself and turn to the lightside of the Force or submit to your Master and take severe punishment with a loss of a limb for your failure and regain darkside points!

 

Comments?

[Darth Nuke]

Dejarik should be a new many game. It was said in the novel Star by Star the Dejarik was rumored to be a favored study of the Jedi Knights.

[Echo_Drive]

Dejarik is that "chess" like game that Chewbacca and R2-D2 was playing in Episode IV wasn't?