Who was the best of the best lightsaber user?

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

Either windu or revan.

[Dark_Raven]

Mace would floor them all.

[Omelette]

Mace would floor them all.

I agree. And he has the coolest lightsaber ever. End of story. Purple FTW.

 

(I just used Internet speak. Holy crap, I'm sinking to a lower low...)

Edited June 23, 2007 by Omelette

[Tale]

Yoda was better than Mace with simply lightsaber techniques. Probably the best of the time. Which means it could go to either him, Sidious, or even Obi-Wan.

 

Though I agree with a previous poster about Mace having the coolest Lightsaber.

[DeathScepter]

Revan then Mace.

 

 

Well Revan is capable of killing everybody on the Star forge and that is no small feat. Also Mace did defeat a droid army inwhich I don't know the size thereof.

Edited June 23, 2007 by DeathScepter

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

Yoda was better than Mace with simply lightsaber techniques. Probably the best of the time. Which means it could go to either him, Sidious, or even Obi-Wan.

 

Though I agree with a previous poster about Mace having the coolest Lightsaber.

 

 

Meh vapaad is better lightsaber form so windu is better. Not only that but his lightsaber form can form a super conducting loop which is why it is so powerful other than the speed. But the conducting loop is what saved him against palps. Palps and yoda were pretty even in their sabers. Revan was easily just as skilled as any of them though. I don't know who would win in a saber duel though because of vapaads super conducting loop. No doubt though if revan had learned and mastered vapaad he would most likley own mace.

[DeathScepter]

Don't forget that Juyo is what Vapaad is base on. SO Therefore, IF Revan had Mastered Juyo so can he understand Vapaad and defeat Mace and any vapaad fighter.

[Master Anhan]

Don't forget that Juyo is what Vapaad is base on. SO Therefore, IF Revan had Mastered Juyo so can he understand Vapaad and defeat Mace and any vapaad fighter.

 

 

I agree. Also in KotOR II it is mentioned on Korriban that the true master duelists lived long before the time of even the Exile and Revan. So in terms of pure duelling ability regardless of style, the ancient Sith Lords were the best. Even though technically the Sith Lords were a body of people and not a singular person. (I can't think of a name off the top of my head)

[Darth Mortis]

Meh vapaad is better lightsaber form so windu is better. Not only that but his lightsaber form can form a super conducting loop which is why it is so powerful other than the speed. But the conducting loop is what saved him against palps. Palps and yoda were pretty even in their sabers. Revan was easily just as skilled as any of them though. I don't know who would win in a saber duel though because of vapaads super conducting loop. No doubt though if revan had learned and mastered vapaad he would most likley own mace.

 

Its missleading, if not wrong, to call anyone particular lightsabre form better than any of the others. All the lightsabre forms have their strengths, and their weaknesses which balance out overall-if they didn't then all Jedi and Sith would use exactly the same lightsabre form all the time. Vapaad (and Juno, from which is is derived) is an agressive form, and for a short conflict a very useful one. But the Vapaad user who gets into a long fight will be in trouble against someone using a more defensive form.

 

As has also been pointed out it is difficult to say who is better than who because half the people on the list come from different time periods. In a fight between Revan and Windu Revan would probably win....not because Revan might be a better swordsman or intrisically more powerful than Mace, but because Revan had more experience fighting lightsabre opponents than Mace-who would have been more used to dealing with opponents who fought with blasters.

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

Meh vapaad is better lightsaber form so windu is better. Not only that but his lightsaber form can form a super conducting loop which is why it is so powerful other than the speed. But the conducting loop is what saved him against palps. Palps and yoda were pretty even in their sabers. Revan was easily just as skilled as any of them though. I don't know who would win in a saber duel though because of vapaads super conducting loop. No doubt though if revan had learned and mastered vapaad he would most likley own mace.

 

Its missleading, if not wrong, to call anyone particular lightsabre form better than any of the others. All the lightsabre forms have their strengths, and their weaknesses which balance out overall-if they didn't then all Jedi and Sith would use exactly the same lightsabre form all the time. Vapaad (and Juno, from which is is derived) is an agressive form, and for a short conflict a very useful one. But the Vapaad user who gets into a long fight will be in trouble against someone using a more defensive form.

 

As has also been pointed out it is difficult to say who is better than who because half the people on the list come from different time periods. In a fight between Revan and Windu Revan would probably win....not because Revan might be a better swordsman or intrisically more powerful than Mace, but because Revan had more experience fighting lightsabre opponents than Mace-who would have been more used to dealing with opponents who fought with blasters.

 

 

Yes but vappaad doesn't really have a weakness and especially since you and deploy a super conducting loop to simply use the other forms advantage.

 

 

 

 

 

Don't forget that Juyo is what Vapaad is base on. SO Therefore, IF Revan had Mastered Juyo so can he understand Vapaad and defeat Mace and any vapaad fighter.

 

 

There is no evidence that Revan even learned juyo and even if he did that does not mean he would master vapaad because he simply doesn't know it and must be taught (even though he can be taught fast). There would be noone to teach him and if they were to fight how they were with pure lightsaber skills it would be a hard decision because mace has vapaad and s super conducting loop. Still in the book of revenge of the sith it said mace could barley reflect palps powers nad revan may be more powerful than palps.

[Darth Mortis]

Yes but vappaad doesn't really have a weakness and especially since you and deploy a super conducting loop to simply use the other forms advantage.

 

Don't forget that Juyo is what Vapaad is base on. SO Therefore, IF Revan had Mastered Juyo so can he understand Vapaad and defeat Mace and any vapaad fighter.

 

 

There is no evidence that Revan even learned juyo and even if he did that does not mean he would master vapaad because he simply doesn't know it and must be taught (even though he can be taught fast). There would be noone to teach him and if they were to fight how they were with pure lightsaber skills it would be a hard decision because mace has vapaad and s super conducting loop. Still in the book of revenge of the sith it said mace could barley reflect palps powers nad revan may be more powerful than palps.

 

1: Vapaad was derived from Juno towards the end of the Republic era. It's creater was...Mace Windu. Hence Revan could not have been taught this form as it wasn't invented until about 4000 years after he was dead.

 

2: Vapaad worked by mirroring the darkside-or the agressive nature inherant in the user and whoever they were fighting. It is this aspect of Vapaad that allowed Mace to deflect Palpatines force lightning back at him, but it wasn't something that could be controled. This is the so called conductive loop you keep talking about, and it would only work against directed force powers (such as force lightning) in this way, and then only providing you can get the lightsabre in the way to blow the attack.

 

3: Vapaad is not a form without weaknesses-for a start only 3 Jedi ever knew this form, two of them became dark Jedi and all three were ultimatly killed in battle.

 

4: Another, logical, weakness of Vapaad would be, quite simply, that due to its nature in channeling agressive natures of user and opponent it would have less effect against someone using a very defensive style.

 

5: An agressive form concentrates on dealing maximum damage to opponets quickly at the expense of defense. Or put another way the logic is that the best defense is a good offence. Against a single opponet this would probably work, but fighting a lot of opponets could land you in trouble if you fail to take care of enough of them fast enough or don't have friends in the area to at least distract them.

 

6: You are confusing Skill with power, and they are not the same thing. In the context of lightsabre forms the strength you have in the force is less important than the skill with which you can use a sabre-for example Obi-Wan was less powerful than Anakin, but more skilled with a sabre which was why he won their fight. Likewise, for all we know Palpatine was far more powerful than Revan (And the fanboys can stop shouting, this is an example not a statement) but less skilled with a sabre, which in a duel would have left Palpatine headless.

[Heart of the Guardian]

3: Vapaad is not a form without weaknesses-for a start only 3 Jedi ever knew this form, two of them became dark Jedi and all three were ultimatly killed in battle.

Well, that doesn't actually prove your point. Mace wasn't "ultimately killed in battle" because of his use of Vaapad. It wasn't even anything to do with his blade. But yes, it can corrupt, due to it boarding on the Sith philosiphy on Lightsaber combat.

 

 

4: Another, logical, weakness of Vapaad would be, quite simply, that due to its nature in channeling agressive natures of user and opponent it would have less effect against someone using a very defensive style.

IMO that's no weakness. Vaapad requires the user enjoy the combat with one's opponant. This is no flaw, or disadvantage. I'd say it aids the user mostly. So aggression is involved, that's true. But That agression *could* be turned into strength. Couldn't it?

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

Yes but vappaad doesn't really have a weakness and especially since you and deploy a super conducting loop to simply use the other forms advantage.

 

Don't forget that Juyo is what Vapaad is base on. SO Therefore, IF Revan had Mastered Juyo so can he understand Vapaad and defeat Mace and any vapaad fighter.

 

 

There is no evidence that Revan even learned juyo and even if he did that does not mean he would master vapaad because he simply doesn't know it and must be taught (even though he can be taught fast). There would be noone to teach him and if they were to fight how they were with pure lightsaber skills it would be a hard decision because mace has vapaad and s super conducting loop. Still in the book of revenge of the sith it said mace could barley reflect palps powers nad revan may be more powerful than palps.

 

1: Vapaad was derived from Juno towards the end of the Republic era. It's creater was...Mace Windu. Hence Revan could not have been taught this form as it wasn't invented until about 4000 years after he was dead.

 

2: Vapaad worked by mirroring the darkside-or the agressive nature inherant in the user and whoever they were fighting. It is this aspect of Vapaad that allowed Mace to deflect Palpatines force lightning back at him, but it wasn't something that could be controled. This is the so called conductive loop you keep talking about, and it would only work against directed force powers (such as force lightning) in this way, and then only providing you can get the lightsabre in the way to blow the attack.

 

3: Vapaad is not a form without weaknesses-for a start only 3 Jedi ever knew this form, two of them became dark Jedi and all three were ultimatly killed in battle.

 

4: Another, logical, weakness of Vapaad would be, quite simply, that due to its nature in channeling agressive natures of user and opponent it would have less effect against someone using a very defensive style.

 

5: An agressive form concentrates on dealing maximum damage to opponets quickly at the expense of defense. Or put another way the logic is that the best defense is a good offence. Against a single opponet this would probably work, but fighting a lot of opponets could land you in trouble if you fail to take care of enough of them fast enough or don't have friends in the area to at least distract them.

 

6: You are confusing Skill with power, and they are not the same thing. In the context of lightsabre forms the strength you have in the force is less important than the skill with which you can use a sabre-for example Obi-Wan was less powerful than Anakin, but more skilled with a sabre which was why he won their fight. Likewise, for all we know Palpatine was far more powerful than Revan (And the fanboys can stop shouting, this is an example not a statement) but less skilled with a sabre, which in a duel would have left Palpatine headless.

 

 

1. That was what I was getting at. No one can teach Revan the form so it's a disadvantage to him.

 

2. Wrong. He could control it. Also it could deflect MORE than just force powers if you read ANYTHING about the fight between him and palps he used palps OWN speed, agression and power in the saber duel as his OWN with the super conducting loop. Mace CAN deploy a super conducting loop at his will. In this area you are completley wrong. Read the book for more info.

 

 

3. They were killed because they lacked the skill not because the weakness of their form but because they never took it to a high enough level.

 

4. WRONG. It could EASILY penitrates defenses with blinding speed nearly invisible to the naked eye according to the books.

 

5. Wron again. You speak of juyo! VAPAAD is NOT juyo. Besides NONE of this matter because with his lightsaber form he can deploy and super conducting loop for defense.

 

6. Obi-won was not as skilled as anakin with a blade merely more in control and aware as to what was going on because his form was perfect against Anakins. Many books even state that Anakin was one of the greatest saber fighters of his time. He owned duko and obi-won didn't even come close. Palps was NOT more powerful than revan and skill results in POWER anyway. If your more skilled using a saber than your MORE POWERFUL using a saber because you will win. End of subject. You give the same thing two meanings. Bottom line is the one who wins in the saber duel is the one who is more powerful saber duelist enless their form is giving them rare advantages.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the bottom bottom line is the fact that Mace CAN DEPLOY A SUPER CODUCTING loop AT WILL (don't confuse this ability with shatterpoint) and THAT will take care of his defenses.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad

 

Check out the above link.

 

 

Oh and only TWO jedi ever mastered vapaad fully.

Edited June 25, 2007 by OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)

[Darth Mortis]

1. That was what I was getting at. No one can teach Revan the form so it's a disadvantage to him.

 

I meant that comparing Mace Windu's lightsabre skills against anyone before him-ie Revan-is a little pointless as he'd have the advantage of using a style they wouldn't know. It would be better to compare him to Jedi/Sith who were alive when he was, and would have at least heard of the style if not seen it in action. You could compare other Jedi of Mace's time to those before, since they would know the same forms. From what I can tell the lightsabre forms didn't change much over the years (which seems a little odd to be honest), what did change is which forms Jedi/Sith tended to use-For example Jedi at the start of the clone wars tended towards using Nimian form, but those who used it on Genosis were also the ones who got killed so it quickly fell out of favour. If the forms didn't change, then it could be assumed that both Jedi and Sith would have picked the same forms in time of war if the threats were of a similar nature (Ie mainly blaster wielding opponents or lightsabre opponents). Which would allow a comparison between Jedi/Sith of different eras.

 

2. Wrong. He could control it. Also it could deflect MORE than just force powers if you read ANYTHING about the fight between him and palps he used palps OWN speed, agression and power in the saber duel as his OWN with the super conducting loop. Mace CAN deploy a super conducting loop at his will. In this area you are completley wrong. Read the book for more info.

 

'....Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways.......He reflected the fury upon its source as a lighsabre redirects a blaster bolt.....The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it. Vapaad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop compleated by the shadow...there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Maces only gift.....he only had time to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed towards him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind; a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source....."Anakin, he's too strong for me-"....lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.....Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever.'

 

(Snippet from StarWars, Revenge of the Sith book, detailing the fight between Mace Windu and Darth Sidious)

 

I quoted this since it says, quite clearly that Mace could control the loop only in so far as being able to activate it-meaning dropping into the Vaapad form. It also indicates that Vaapad has limits, and its ability to deflect force lightning replies on having a lightsabre in hand.

 

Its also helpful since it makes the point about Vaapad I was trying to make last time-namely that Vaapads strength comes in part from whoever you are fighting. If they are being passive and defensive there is less for it to work with, so it becomes less powerful.

 

3. They were killed because they lacked the skill not because the weakness of their form but because they never took it to a high enough level.

 

You could also argue that anyone who lost against another lightsabre opponent did so because they didn't take the form they were using to a high enough level. In Mace Windu's case he is called the Vaapad master, meaning that he had taken that form to the highest level he could and no one was better-but he still tells Anakin that Palpatine was to strong for him alone.....

 

4. WRONG. It could EASILY penitrates defenses with blinding speed nearly invisible to the naked eye according to the books.

 

Jedi and Sith don't reply on the eye, they use the force; 'Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them-Obi-Wan to Luke Skywalker in Episode IV'. I'd also note that fencers can wield a conventinal blade faster than the eye can follow without using the force, and they can parry blows at that speed too. Trust me....I've failed to see it....

 

5. Wron again. You speak of juyo! VAPAAD is NOT juyo.

 

No, I wasn't talking about Juno I was talking about all the agressive lighsabre forms which, while including Juno would also include Vaapad and Makisku (Dooku's form). And Vaapad is derived from Juno btw, which I think I noted before.

 

Besides NONE of this matter because with his lightsaber form he can deploy and super conducting loop for defense

 

Sure...whatever......

Edited June 25, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[Darth Mortis]

6. Obi-won was not as skilled as anakin with a blade merely more in control and aware as to what was going on because his form was perfect against Anakins. Many books even state that Anakin was one of the greatest saber fighters of his time. He owned duko and obi-won didn't even come close.

 

Obi-Wan was considered the master of his form, so that probably does him a slight diservice, but I can't fault the logic. Obi-Wan did have better situatinal awareness than Anakin, which could have been in part down to his form being less focused than Anakin which might have allowed him to pick up on what was going on around him better.

 

Palps was NOT more powerful than revan and skill results in POWER anyway. If your more skilled using a saber than your MORE POWERFUL using a saber because you will win. End of subject.

 

And I said;

Likewise, for all we know Palpatine was far more powerful than Revan (And the fanboys can stop shouting, this is an example not a statement) but less skilled with a sabre, which in a duel would have left Palpatine headless.

Note that I did say this was an example, not a statment of fact.

 

I also said that;

In the context of lightsabre forms the strength you have in the force is less important than the skill with which you can use a sabre

I said, I thought clearly, that an individuals strength in the force did not automatically mean they would be skilled/powerful with a lightsabre

 

You give the same thing two meanings. Bottom line is the one who wins in the saber duel is the one who is more powerful saber duelist enless their form is giving them rare advantages.

 

No, I'm not. And the winner of a duel is not always the most powerful/skilled. Luck and experience can count for a lot, as can misjudgements in how you face a battle. Using a form that relies on movement while in a confined space puts you at a disadvantage regardless of how good you happen to be for example.

 

And the bottom bottom line is the fact that Mace CAN DEPLOY A SUPER CODUCTING loop AT WILL (don't confuse this ability with shatterpoint) and THAT will take care of his defenses.

 

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad

 

Check out the above link.

 

Thanks for including a link that just proves Juyo and Vaapad are listed as the same general form-form VII and are hence both agressive forms.

[seejai]

i think mace windu just from reading shatter point... but revans close behind

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

....Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways.......He reflected the fury upon its source as a lighsabre redirects a blaster bolt.....The darkness had no power over him. But-Neither did he have power over it. Vapaad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop compleated by the shadow...there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue. Impasse. Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Maces only gift.....he only had time to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed towards him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind; a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source....."Anakin, he's too strong for me-"....lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.....Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever.'

 

(Snippet from StarWars, Revenge of the Sith book, detailing the fight between Mace Windu and Darth Sidious)

 

I quoted this since it says, quite clearly that Mace could control the loop only in so far as being able to activate it-meaning dropping into the Vaapad form. It also indicates that Vaapad has limits, and its ability to deflect force lightning replies on having a lightsabre in hand.

 

Its also helpful since it makes the point about Vaapad I was trying to make last time-namely that Vaapads strength comes in part from whoever you are fighting. If they are being passive and defensive there is less for it to work with, so it becomes less powerful.

 

YES the super conducting loop is APART OF VAPAAD so of course he has to have a lightsaber in his hands. It is part of his lightsaber form and he can activate a super conducting loop at will. As soon and they started fighting MACE intentially at WILL deployed a super conducting loop with his lightsaber form to hold off against palpatine.

 

 

 

 

You could also argue that anyone who lost against another lightsabre opponent did so because they didn't take the form they were using to a high enough level. In Mace Windu's case he is called the Vaapad master, meaning that he had taken that form to the highest level he could and no one was better-but he still tells Anakin that Palpatine was to strong for him alone.....

 

Wow....vapaad maser simpley means that he has mastered using the form effectivley but it is STILL not the highest of it's level.....he could of gone further. Luke was a jedi master for a long time but STILL increases in power continually. If palpatine would of mastered vapaad for example he would of been a better lightsaber fighter than mace because he would of taken it to a higher level.

 

 

 

Jedi and Sith don't reply on the eye, they use the force; 'Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them-Obi-Wan to Luke Skywalker in Episode IV'. I'd also note that fencers can wield a conventinal blade faster than the eye can follow without using the force, and they can parry blows at that speed too. Trust me....I've failed to see it....

 

it channles the power of the dark side to easily brake through defenses and YES if a user is vapaad is moving their blade so fast that even the opponants experience in the force can't block (BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MOVE FAST ENOUGH) than it has succeeded in penetrating their defenses. Not only that vapaad is stated to be the greatest most powerful form many times and is very unpredictable to the foe so it DOES penitrate defenses very well.

 

 

 

Obi-Wan was considered the master of his form, so that probably does him a slight diservice, but I can't fault the logic. Obi-Wan did have better situatinal awareness than Anakin, which could have been in part down to his form being less focused than Anakin which might have allowed him to pick up on what was going on around him better

 

 

Yeah and master is JUST A TITLE. The books even state that anakin is more powerful than obi-won but yet he never became a jedi master did he? Anakin lost because he was NOT IN CONTROL of himself and uses a highly offensive form (unlike vapaad which is unpredictable and can switch easily to cover a weakness which allowed him to defend against palps and at the same time cut his lightsaber hilt in the books) but uncontroled and he was blinded by power so Obi-won was able to defend and exploit the other forms weakness untill he got HIGHER ground and had an opening to strike.

 

 

 

Thanks for including a link that just proves Juyo and Vaapad are listed as the same general form-form VII and are hence both agressive forms.

Darth Mortis Posted Yesterday, 04:00 PM

 

Read the whole thing. It states that vapaad is a higher level of mastery CREATED by mace windu so it didn't exist before and that vapaad had many powers that a juyo master did not have.

[Darth Mortis]

Thanks for including a link that just proves Juyo and Vaapad are listed as the same general form-form VII and are hence both agressive forms.

Darth Mortis Posted Yesterday, 04:00 PM

 

Read the whole thing. It states that vapaad is a higher level of mastery CREATED by mace windu so it didn't exist before and that vapaad had many powers that a juyo master did not have.

 

*Sighs* and once again you missed the point. What I was saying originally was that Vaapad was an agressive/offensive lightsabre form, like juyo from which Vaapad was developed. All the lightsabre forms are a bit like a see-saw with one end being defence and the other offence. If you raise the defence the offence will fall and vice-versa. (The only form this does not apply to is Nimian, which balances offence and defense equally. However as was proved on Genosis this can be a problem as all the Jedi who were using this form got shot). The form a Jedi/Sith uses by choice depends on if they intend to wait for an opening-as Obi-Wan did-or if they intend to take the fight to an oppoent from the start.

 

The trick is to get the correct balance, if you are too aggresive you'll have next to no defence and if you fail to take your opponent out before they strike back you'll most likely be dead. If you are too defensive then your opponent is going to keep coming until they break through your defenses.

 

Vaapad is an agressive form, hence its defenses will be lower than other lightsabre forms. This does not mean it is a defensless form, simply that it would not allow the user to protect themselves as well as some other forms.

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

Thanks for including a link that just proves Juyo and Vaapad are listed as the same general form-form VII and are hence both agressive forms.

Darth Mortis Posted Yesterday, 04:00 PM

 

Read the whole thing. It states that vapaad is a higher level of mastery CREATED by mace windu so it didn't exist before and that vapaad had many powers that a juyo master did not have.

 

*Sighs* and once again you missed the point. What I was saying originally was that Vaapad was an agressive/offensive lightsabre form, like juyo from which Vaapad was developed. All the lightsabre forms are a bit like a see-saw with one end being defence and the other offence. If you raise the defence the offence will fall and vice-versa. (The only form this does not apply to is Nimian, which balances offence and defense equally. However as was proved on Genosis this can be a problem as all the Jedi who were using this form got shot). The form a Jedi/Sith uses by choice depends on if they intend to wait for an opening-as Obi-Wan did-or if they intend to take the fight to an oppoent from the start.

 

The trick is to get the correct balance, if you are too aggresive you'll have next to no defence and if you fail to take your opponent out before they strike back you'll most likely be dead. If you are too defensive then your opponent is going to keep coming until they break through your defenses.

 

Vaapad is an agressive form, hence its defenses will be lower than other lightsabre forms. This does not mean it is a defensless form, simply that it would not allow the user to protect themselves as well as some other forms.

 

 

Yeah I know. Juyo was the ultimate lightsaber dueling form during it's time vs any saber form yet it's weakness was against force attacks. But vapaad is a more unpredictable form that can be used for pretty much anything and a super conducting loop that can reflect almost anything.

[DeathScepter]

ugh fanboy.

Edited June 26, 2007 by DeathScepter

[Darth Mortis]

ugh fanboy.

 

Well put.

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

ugh fanboy.

 

 

Ugh punk. Ugh back THAT ****ING **** UP!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Vapaad IS IN FACT PUNK an unpredictable form which can switch styles at any time and others can't predict it. Someone may think for example the vapaad leaves you open but it's to unpredictable and a vapaad master can deploy a super conducting loop at will which WILL take the power of another and use it as it's own weapon do your ****ing reesearch kid. Tired of punks like you talking and not walking. SO YOU TELL ME WHAT IS VAPAADS WEAKNESS even if someone would claim it is a strictly offensive form which it's not?

Edited June 27, 2007 by OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)

[DeathScepter]

It is very easy to know the weakness of vapaad.

 

 

First: only Lightsiders can only use it due to its nature. Therefore by falling to dark side like Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq when tried to master it is an weakness. Vos doesn't count because he didn't close to Depa Billaba or Sora Bulq's level on Vapaad.

 

 

Second: The Focus factor is so high with it, another person can finish off the vapaad master aka What Anakin did to Mace in Revenge of the Sith.

 

 

 

The only Jedi Lightsaber form that has no potential weakness is Niman. As of the Clone Wars era Jedi, They did perfect their training during war conditions.

[Darth Mortis]

It is very easy to know the weakness of vapaad.

 

 

First: only Lightsiders can only use it due to its nature. Therefore by falling to dark side like Depa Billaba and Sora Bulq when tried to master it is an weakness. Vos doesn't count because he didn't close to Depa Billaba or Sora Bulq's level on Vapaad.

 

Yeah, I was thinking that last night for some reason. One of the weaknesses of Vaapad would be that its not all that powerful against a Jedi-it works by reflecting darkside energy back at an opponent, and of course Jedi are Lightsiders by definition so it wouldn't work. I'm also wondering how good it is against droids, since they are not living beings as far as the Force is concerned they couldn't provide anything to reflect back through the force. Vaapad isn't defenceless against droids-if it was Windu would have been killed on Genosis-but its unlikely to be anymore effective than any other form against droids.

 

 

Second: The Focus factor is so high with it, another person can finish off the vapaad master aka What Anakin did to Mace in Revenge of the Sith.

 

Focus is a problem for most of the forms. The more agressive forms can lead to focusing so much on a single target you miss new threats or react more slowly against them. More defensive forms are less focused, which while allowing the Jedi to react faster to new threats, means that attacks are weaker. Mace's distraction in ROTS wasn't, however, down to Vaapad as he wasn't fighting at the time. It was more down to Mace not considering Anakin a threat and not being on his guard against him. I do, however, agree with the problem with focus being to narrow. This in fact is what I meant when I said that one of the weaknesses of Vaapad would be in situations where there are more opponents than you can take out quickly, due to its high focus on a small number of targets the Jedi would be reacting more slowly in defence and therefore be more likely to be hit.

 

 

The only Jedi Lightsaber form that has no potential weakness is Niman. As of the Clone Wars era Jedi, They did perfect their training during war conditions.

 

Niman is potentally the most powerful of all the lightsabre forms as its principal focus is on adaptability and balance. In theory Niman should allow the user to react equally well to any sort of threat in any situation. In practice however its lack of focus is a major drawback if you are coming under a tightly focused attack-This is why Janga Fett was able to shoot the Jedi that threated him Dooku on Genosis and get through his defences. All the Jedi who were killed on Genosis were, apparently, using the Niman form and this lead the Jedi to stop using it in combat after Genosis. (Although it was still taught, Niman is a prequsite for learning the more aggessive forms-at least for Jedi, Sith might not have bothered. Its impossible to know if Niman was taught to the Sith since the only two Sith Lords who were not Jedi at one point were Sidious and Maul, and we have no idea which of the forms they knew-only the form they faught with.)

 

It would be interesting, in a general way, to know which where the most popular lightsabre forms used by the Jedi after Genosis, and the forms the Jedi used most often during Revans time. I'm wondering if Jedi tend to default to the same general forms during times of war, which would tell us which forms were most effective in combat-assuming Jedi that used the less effective forms were either killed or wounded and decided to change to a different form as time went by.

 

 

do your ****ing reesearch kid.

 

Why bother? You'll just read what you want to read and scream 'Superconducting loop' anyway.

 

SO YOU TELL ME WHAT IS VAPAADS WEAKNESS even if someone would claim it is a strictly offensive form which it's not?

 

Vaapad is classed as form VII, thats an agressive form regardless of what name you give the style of fighting.

Edited June 27, 2007 by Darth Mortis

[OverPowered Godzilla (OPG)]

The only Jedi Lightsaber form that has no potential weakness is Niman. As of the Clone Wars era Jedi, They did perfect their training during war conditions.

 

Very ineffective form as a matter a fact. Virtually all who used this form DIED!

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I was thinking that last night for some reason. One of the weaknesses of Vaapad would be that its not all that powerful against a Jedi-it works by reflecting darkside energy back at an opponent, and of course Jedi are Lightsiders by definition so it wouldn't work. I'm also wondering how good it is against droids, since they are not living beings as far as the Force is concerned they couldn't provide anything to reflect back through the force. Vaapad isn't defenceless against droids-if it was Windu would have been killed on Genosis-but its unlikely to be anymore effective than any other form against droids.

 

Who is to say WHAT KIND of energy it reflects. All that is known is that when Mace wants to he can use to to reflect others powers back at them or use their powers for his own. Your the one that's says is like the same thing as juyo. Juyo is the greatest form (was till vapaad) against a lightsaber user (of any kind but mabey not alot at the same time) ever during it's time. Mace vapaad owned against droids as shown over and over throughout the books. Mace beat a whole droid army. They were shooting hundreds of blasters at him and he was reflecting them all. He even killed jango fett. It ownes against ALL that stuff as PROVEN throug what he acomplished by using it against them. He didn't even struggle to reflect droids blasters and than own them.

 

 

 

Focus is a problem for most of the forms. The more agressive forms can lead to focusing so much on a single target you miss new threats or react more slowly against them. More defensive forms are less focused, which while allowing the Jedi to react faster to new threats, means that attacks are weaker. Mace's distraction in ROTS wasn't, however, down to Vaapad as he wasn't fighting at the time. It was more down to Mace not considering Anakin a threat and not being on his guard against him. I do, however, agree with the problem with focus being to narrow. This in fact is what I meant when I said that one of the weaknesses of Vaapad would be in situations where there are more opponents than you can take out quickly, due to its high focus on a small number of targets the Jedi would be reacting more slowly in defence and therefore be more likely to be hit.

 

 

I don't think any lightsaber form would of saved mace from anakin. The point is if Mace is OPENLY going to fight people he CAN face all the force sensitives very well with this form and focus opon all of them. Vapaad can switch STYLES do you understand that? If he KNOWS he needs to face multiple foes he will adjust as his form can adjust and is VERY UNPREDICTABLE. It is NOT just juyo.

 

 

Niman is potentally the most powerful of all the lightsabre forms as its principal focus is on adaptability and balance. In theory Niman should allow the user to react equally well to any sort of threat in any situation. In practice however its lack of focus is a major drawback if you are coming under a tightly focused attack-This is why Janga Fett was able to shoot the Jedi that threated him Dooku on Genosis and get through his defences. All the Jedi who were killed on Genosis were, apparently, using the Niman form and this lead the Jedi to stop using it in combat after Genosis. (Although it was still taught, Niman is a prequsite for learning the more aggessive forms-at least for Jedi, Sith might not have bothered. Its impossible to know if Niman was taught to the Sith since the only two Sith Lords who were not Jedi at one point were Sidious and Maul, and we have no idea which of the forms they knew-only the form they faught with.)

 

It would be interesting, in a general way, to know which where the most popular lightsabre forms used by the Jedi after Genosis, and the forms the Jedi used most often during Revans time. I'm wondering if Jedi tend to default to the same general forms during times of war, which would tell us which forms were most effective in combat-assuming Jedi that used the less effective forms were either killed or wounded and decided to change to a different form as time went by.

 

All who used ninman died but others who used other forms survived.

 

 

 

 

Vaapad is classed as form VII, thats an agressive form regardless of what name you give the style of fighting

 

Many sources say is is a brand new form BASED off juyo meaning that is how you learn it by mastering that form first. You keep saying vapaad is a offensive form and but it was clear in the books and movies that Mace WAS on the defensive against palpatine. IT IS UNPREDICTABLE and can switch. Surley you can understand that. Mace always let palpatine attack first cause he adjusted HIS lightsaber form to BE unpredictable like that. He basically resulted to obi-wons form to strike only when the foe is open but with much more skill and a super conducting loop using palpatines speed and agression against him proving that it can even DRAW off the OTHERS lightsaber skils to FURTHER adapt. So it has the potential (especially against another lightsaber user) from a master of vapaad to show no weakness to another lightsaber user.