I just finished Icewind Dale!!!

[J.E. Sawyer]

"how is Interplay not partially responsible for the success of the game?"

 

You better reread what I wrote. I gave Interplay credit for their part in BG. I didn't give them credit for Bioware's success as a company. There's a huge difference there.

BioWare's success as a company is logically dependent on their working relationship with Interplay. Interplay's ability to survive for the years following BG were logically dependent on the income they received from the work that BioWare did. Without Interplay, BioWare could not have made BG. Without BG, BioWare would not have had the money it used to build a solid foundation for its company. It's a very straightforward reliance.

 

 

However, that still doens't change the fact that Bioware is 100% responsible for what happens to Bioware.

"Did you see how she was dressed? She was asking for it!"

 

If Bioware crashes and burns tomorrow are we all gonna sit here blaming Interplay because they played some obscure part in Bioware's history? I sure hop not.

Well, if there's no clear causal link, it would be pretty strange to discuss something like that. But if Interplay withheld money from them that was owed to BioWare and BioWare fell apart due to short funds, I think it would be even more absurd to say that BioWare was to blame. Clearly multiple parties are culpable.

 

Or should we blame Bioware for Interplay's collapse because BIO "took" NWN from them?

The decline of Interplay took place over such a long span of time that it would be very difficult to blame it on any single company or any individual. Even if we were to look at the heads of Interplay, it would be silly. I'm not a big fan of Herve Caen, but Herve didn't start the huge debt that Interplay accrued. Ignoring the role that Brian Fargo played in that would be pretty dumb. Ignoring the role that BioWare played in the survival of the company would also be pretty dumb, both in the BG days and in the NW nights (lol).

 

People - and companies - are 100% responsible for themselves. there are exemptions to this rule; but they are only exemptions. One exception would be if someone, say, STOLE money from ssaid company's bank account. but, like I said, an exemption does not disprove a rule; it proves it.

Wait, they're responsible for themselves, for what happens to them, or for their own actions? BioWare didn't make people buy the game they made.

 

So, anymore accusing me of posting something I didn't? Interplay deserves credit for their part in making BG. That's it; that's all. I never denied that so why say I did?

I didn't accuse you of anything. I asked you a question because I believe it's logical that the success of BG contributes to the success of BioWare. Do you disagree with this?

 

Why did Interplay get BIo to make BG? Why was BIo so special? Why didn't Interplay get their role-playing division aka BIS to make it

This should be obvious, but Black Isle had their own games to develop internally at the time. It's not like Interplay said, "Well, we could give it to all of those guys sitting around doing nothing, but these BioWare guys are tops!"

 

Why not the tens of other game dveloeprs who'd have jumped at the chance to make a D&D game? It's obvious why - Interplay ssaw soemthing - likely the demo of the engine - that made them (specifically Feargus if I recall) who said to BIO,"Make a D&D game with that!"). It wasn't fluke or luck that got BIO  the contract to make BG; they earned it. Interplay didn't give them anything.

 

Simple as that.

And it wasn't a fluke that Interplay had the license. They bought it using money they earned with other successful titles. This is reminding me of Judd Nelson's conversation with Anthony Michael Hall in Breakfast Club.

 

"Without trigonometry, there'd be no lamps!"

 

"Without lamps, there'd be no light!"

[Volourn]

Ok. Without Interplay there would be no Bioware. Bioware betrayed Inetrplay when they left them. Bioware shall bow down to Interplay since Interplay is responisble for Bio's success and Interplay is also responsible for Jade Empire's combat not being to your liking.

 

LONG LIVE INTERPLAY!

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

The way I see it it was Interplay who betrayed Bioware for not giving them their money when it was due. As for Jade Empire, that responsibility is Microsoft and Bioware, not **** and Bioware.

[GhostofAnakin]

Is it me or is Volourn arguing with someone who actually has past experience with the ins and outs of the actual business and who would better know just how much "responsibility" the various different pieces of the puzzle should bear?

[6 Foot Invisible Rabbit]

That's Volourn for you.

[Sermon]

Ok. Without Interplay there would be no Bioware. Bioware betrayed Inetrplay when they left them. Bioware shall bow down to Interplay since Interplay is responisble for Bio's success and Interplay is also responsible  for Jade Empire's combat not being to your liking.

 

LONG LIVE INTERPLAY!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Hey Volo, don't back out of this conversation with a statement like this because you've run out of counter-arguments. Why not admit that J. E. is right about this and you're wrong?

[Volourn]

"Why not admit that J. E. is right about this and you're wrong?"

 

Yeah. Heaven forbid I give credit to BIO for their success. How wrong of me.

 

 

"Is it me or is Volourn arguing with someone who actually has past experience with the ins and outs of the actual business and who would better know just how much "responsibility" the various different pieces of the puzzle should bear?"

 

Huh? What are you saying? Once again, I'm not disputing the fact that Interplay shares responsibilty for BG. I have not denied that. We're discussing who's responsible for Bioware.

 

But, hey, if Bioware closes down next year; I'll be sure to blame Interplay 'cause it'll obvious be their fault if Bioware screws up.

[Sermon]

Yeah. Heaven forbid I give credit to BIO for their success. How wrong of me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There's nothing wrong with giving credit to BIO where credit is due (and they deserve it), but with denying that other parties were also partly responsible (how small a resonsibility it might have been) for BIO's success as well.

[Ellester]

Yeah. Heaven forbid I give credit to BIO for their success. How wrong of me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is basically what it comes down to. Vol refuses to acknowledge that anyone else had a hand in Bioware

[Volourn]

Ok. Like I said above, if Bioware crashes and burns I'm blaming Interplay.

 

I guess no one on these boards believe in perosnal or in this case individual corporation responsibilty.

 

Sad really.

 

P.S. remember, the bottom line that the finald ecision involving BIo comes from the BIo bigwigs. Theyd ecided to sign with Interplay, theyd ecided to accept the offer to create BG, theyd ecided to leave Interplay, theyd ecided to work with Atari to finish NWN, they decided to develop KOTOR, theyd ecided to pass on KOTOR and NWN2 to concentrate on their own IPs.

 

If JE bombs becuase it's not some big license like D&D or SW then it's BIO's resposnibilty for passing on sure fire hits like KOTOR and NWN2 for a chance on an unknown license.

 

100% their responsibilty.

 

 

edit: Ellester want sto give cr4dit to Interplay; but won't give any to Atari who without BIO would have invested a lot of time, money, and effort for nothing. Talk about sideways wrongness there.

[Ellester]

edit: Ellester want sto give cr4dit to Interplay; but won't give any to Atari who without BIO would have invested a lot of time, money, and effort for nothing. Talk about sideways wrongness there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not true, this is not an IPLY vs. Bio argument, even though you want it to be. I just said Atari didn

[Volourn]

"I just said Atari didn

[Ellester]

"I just said Atari didn

[Volourn]

"Why? Does not every game Bioware develops contribute to the overall success of the company? I say yes. So Atari would be partly responsible in making, or keeping Bioware as a successful company."

 

Sure. However, Bioware is still 100% responsible for Bioware. If Bioware crashes and burns (outside of flat out robbery); I will be blaming them 100% for their fqall. Unlike you, I won't be blaming Interplay.

[Sermon]

Every company that takes part in the making of a computergame holds a share of the games success or failure and in consequence influences the individual participants' success or failure based on how well the product will perform on the market. Making a game is a joint venture between developer and publisher, therefore both are responsible for the success/failure of their product, which in return influences their respective successes/failures.

[mkreku]

I am 100% responsible for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So if someone rapes you, and you become a rape victim, are you still 100% responsible for you?

 

Ps. Your simple-mindedness astounds me.

[Sargallath Abraxium]

...why are ya's still botherin' ta argue this point wit' the Gully Dwarf???...common sense an' Volourn dunna mix; e'eryone 'ere must git that by now...more's the pity... "

 

 

...WHO LUVS YA, BABY!!...

[Volourn]

"So if someone rapes you, and you become a rape victim, are you still 100% responsible for you?"

 

Yes; I am. Then again, I didn't rape myself - the rapist did. Geez.. Stick to letting Ellester do the posting 'cause at least his examples have at least a remote chance of making sense.

 

 

"Ps. Your simple-mindedness astounds me."

 

P.S. Your blaming the victim for a rapist's actions astounds and sickens me and all normal thinking people.

 

 

"Every company that takes part in the making of a computergame holds a share of the games success or failure and in consequence influences the individual participants' success or failure based on how well the product will perform on the market. Making a game is a joint venture between developer and publisher, therefore both are responsible for the success/failure of their product, which in return influences their respective successes/failures."

 

Ok. Once again, if Bioware crumbles and falls a part; I'm blaming Interplay.

[Sermon]

Ok. Once again, if Bioware crumbles and falls a part; I'm blaming Interplay.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now, if BIO would have gone bust right after the release of the BG games, then this would be a valid statement and you could blame BOTH Bioware AND Interplay.

[Gorth]

I wonder if anybody ever thought about the possibility that Volourn might be right ?

 

There is a subtle but important difference in the success of games and developers. Games are mostly (there are exceptions like Bethesda) a joint venture between publishers and developers, making both contribute to the success or failure of a game. However, a developer is the only one truly responsible for itself (bar hand of god, earthquakes and weird election results), through the choices it makes, the products it develops, the recruitment strategy, the market positioning, the technology it masters, skills, whatever and amongst the most important things the connections it forms to publishers which is a sum of what it has to offer, lobbying, greasing and how it generally sells itself. A successful developer not only makes good products, it also sells itself well and vice versa.

 

[Sermon]

I wonder if anybody ever thought about the possibility that Volourn might be right ?

 

There is a subtle but important difference in the success of games and developers. Games are mostly (there are exceptions like Bethesda) a joint venture between publishers and developers, making both contribute to the success or failure of a game. However, a developer is the only one truly responsible for itself (bar hand of god, earthquakes and weird election results), through the choices it makes, the products it develops, the recruitment strategy, the market positioning, the technology it masters, skills, whatever and amongst the most important things the connections it forms to publishers which is a sum of what it has to offer, lobbying, greasing and how it generally sells itself. A successful developer not only makes good products, it also sells itself well and vice versa.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If a publisher decides to go with a rather unknown developer to make a huge RPG based on the D&D license at a time when RPG's are literally dead, then the publisher deserves IMO some credit for having faith in the developers' abilities.

[Gorth]

If a publisher decides to go with a rather unknown developer to make a huge RPG based on the D&D license at a time when RPG's are literally dead, then the publisher deserves IMO some credit for having faith in the developers' abilities.

Depends on the risk involved. If they are gambling their future on the next shippable product from an unknown developer, in a stagnant market they deserve what they get. They are no longer competent (in the publishing business) and have begun gambling, for that is all it is.They might get lucky or they might... whatever it is where Herve is now.

 

I would sell my stock if I had any in such a publisher and invest in a company that split the risk between safe bets (most of the funding) and manageable risks (the gain might be considerable, but the most likely outcome, losses, can be written off without endangering your existence).

[Volourn]

"If a publisher decides to go with a rather unknown developer to make a huge RPG based on the D&D license at a time when RPG's are literally dead, then the publisher deserves IMO some credit for having faith in the developers' abilities."

 

Bioware was not some unknown entity to Interplay before BG. It wans't like Interplay randomly picked them up off the street. The two companies had worked together before, and remember, it was Interplay (specifically Feargus if the stories told are accurate) that saw the IE in action andbasically said,"That's cool. We have the D&D license and think your engine would rock with it so let's do that." Remember, BIO and Interplay alreayd had a contract to make another game together so it wans't like it came out of nowhere.

 

 

"I wonder if anybody ever thought about the possibility that Volourn might be right ?"

 

Don't hold your breath. Besdies, if I'm wrong, I'll just blame my teachers, parents, and the rest of society. Afterall, I'm their responsibility.

[Sermon]

Bioware was not some unknown entity to Interplay before BG. It wans't like Interplay randomly picked them up off the street. The two companies had worked together before, and remember, it was Interplay (specifically Feargus if the stories told are accurate) that saw the IE in action andbasically said,"That's cool. We have the D&D license and think your engine would rock with it so let's do that." Remember, BIO and Interplay alreayd had a contract to make another game together so it wans't like it came out of nowhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure, but they weren't top-class developers with tons of experience and a huge track-record back then. They were still newcomers in the business and hadn't done a game on the complexity level of BG before. IMO it WAS a bit of a gamble for Interplay and I give them credit for that.

[Volourn]

"IMO it WAS a bit of a gamble for Interplay and I give them credit for that."

 

Go ahead; it still doens't make them responsible for Bioware's success. Afterall; Bioware still had to follow through and accomplish their goals.