what is kreia's true aim?

[The Great Phantom]

I was saying how you seem to emulate (raise) Kreia to a higher position than she really deserve(s)(d). She was a manipulative genious, like her apprentice, but her methods and reasoning became twisted as she progressed...

[radical]

It is hard however to determine what she deserved, after all she can easily pass as one of the best characters of the SW saga, and players could really connect despite the fact that she was manipulative, and arrogant at times. Players, I believe, praise what she represents: a milestone in npc and story creating.

[The Great Phantom]

I'm not saying I hate her. She was truly inspired. I'm just saying that, in the end (as LS), she got what she TRULY deserved: Rest. She had been tormented almost nonstop for a decade or more. If I feel any strong Jedi-like emotion (not 'worship'), it would be pity.

[Zilod]

wait i don't think that what makes her great is her manipulative genius or her power or her pony tails...

 

i think that what put her over everyone else is her consciousness

 

i can think that she is the most powerfull force use in SW or the prettiest woman in the galaxy (when she was younger) but that is just a sort of ininfluential idealization...

 

her strenght is her understanding of the force, a knowledge that i didn't saw in any other SW character (exile and revan included)

 

probably i see her even greater than the Exile to a degree, even if the Exile is something that she can't be (or she become with her death?).

 

for Revan i admit that i have not a high opinion about him/her, for what we know s/he was quite a failture and delusion, but i think things will change in KOTOR3 eheh

[The Great Phantom]

Kreia only thinks that she understands. Read Radical and my consensus on the matter: She forgets choice altogether. She sees it as all-controlling, when EVERY other Jedi Master/Sith Lord, and even Lucas himself, I believe, has said that choice is ALWAYS there. EVERYTHING relies on it, and even Kreia admits it at the 'end of things.'

 

She's not Great, in the end. She may have started with the right ideas, but in the end, they consumed her in their own way, leaving her with nothing.

 

Edit: AND WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT REVAN WAS A FAILURE!!!! EVEN KREIA CONFESSES HIS GENIOUS! EVERYTHING SHE DID WAS STARTED BY REVAN! I KNOW THE CAPS LOCK IS STUCK! I'M SHOUTING IN TYPING!!!! <_<

 

Edit: NOT YOU TOO, ZILOD! PLEASE FINISH YOUR POST SO I CAN GO TO BED IN PEACE!

[Zilod]

I'm not telling that the single individual have no choices, just that the choice is ininflential for what we see and will point to a determined destiny regardless of his desires.

 

2 examples i made above...

 

 

the council decide to not to train anakin counscios that it will end in its own destruction... at the end of the movie Anakin is a padawan

 

Revan decide to save the galaxy, sacrifice himself do its best... the republic is almost shattered, both jedis and sith destroyed

 

in both examples a choice was made but in the end it didn't ment anithing..... regardless of the path chose the end of the road point in the same direction, to the same place.

 

 

i think is also interesting to see the choice that a jedi had at Malachor....

to follow the code, not succumb to the dark side (and to die) (light side)

to surrender to the corruption embracing the dark side. (dark side)

 

in both situation you end up with all the remaining jedis as dark siders, regardless of the choices of the single... their choices where just choices in the force, between dark and light, between a future or a nother but that in the global scheme had just 1 end.

 

the only one able to make his own choice was the exile that chose his path and forged his destiny (and the ones around him) as a man outside the force.

 

 

AND WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT REVAN WAS A FAILURE!!!! EVEN KREIA CONFESSES HIS GENIOUS! EVERYTHING SHE DID WAS STARTED BY REVAN! I KNOW THE CAPS LOCK IS STUCK! I'M SHOUTING IN TYPING!!!!

 

it's not ingame, is just a personal consideration considering his potential and what s/he achieved, but as said i'm quite sure it will change in KOTOR3 (even if i think s/he will not become as great as the Exile)

[The Great Phantom]

HUGE error. The Exile didn't cut himself out of want, but his body did what the human normally does. He was bonded with most people that died on Malachor V, and he felt their deaths almost as if he himself was dying. So, his body cut off the thing that was hurting him: the Force. As I said before, what if his destiny was to become outside of the Force?

 

Naturally, only the Exile has this ability to bond willy-nilly, so only he has and will do this ever again.

 

As for no matter what, the things go the same: Do you really expect Obsidian to make 2-4 different games for each ending? They had to fuse them together somewhere, and that's where they chose. That has nothing to do with Destiny, but more with Continuity.

[Zilod]

HUGE error. The Exile didn't cut himself out of want, but his body did what the human normally does. He was bonded with most people that died on Malachor V, and he felt their deaths almost as if he himself was dying. So, his body cut off the thing that was hurting him: the Force.

 

nope, during the game is said something like...

"the screams, the pain where so high that no jedi could resist them"

every jedi was experiencing that

 

what was killing or converting the jedis was Malachor itself

the purpose of Revan was to bound his/her trooups to him/her converting them to dark side and killing the one that will not follow him (HK says "to clean up the house" if i remember right)

 

every jedi was experiencing what the Exile felt, every jedi had the "choice" to leave the force but no one exept him chose that, they chose to die instead to be separed from the force.

 

So was not just the "what the human normally does" or other jedis have done the same, the natural instinct of self conservation was weaker than the bound to the force (tahn the will of the force).

 

On dantooine also Kreia says

"mandalorian wars wher a war of conversion [..] culminating in such a tragedy that no jedi can go away from it, save one"

and again

"how come one turn away from such power, give up the force and still live"

"It was because you where afraid"

[Helton]

Brain Storm Mode- On. If what I say is contradictory to what I normally think, it doesn't count.

 

The death of the Council, Atris, and all of the Sith is obviously important. But was it Kreia's plan? Maybe, but I doubt it. Kreia knows the force is controlling and guiding them (guiding may be a better term), she let's it take them to Telos, to Dxun. So much of the plot falls right into the laps of the players. THAT is how the Force works. She hates it, but she uses it. She uses the Force's use of her, which is part of her genius.

 

She does not plan the death of both the Jedi and Sith orders, it just kind of happens and she goes along with it. Her goal is to find knowledge, and when it is found, to give the Exile true freedom. Her goal is not to prepare the Galaxy for something, she doesn't care! The Galaxy could rot for all she cares, but the Exile is beautiful. That is all that matters to her.

 

Choice is there, always. But is it truly a choice if we are influenced by dozens of different things when we make it? We have to consider past experience, how it would go over with people from our past (would father approve?), if we have been repeatedly wrong in the past. Until one has come to terms with his past, no choice he makes will truly be his. The Force controls choice in a different way. It controls the choice you are allowed to make. The Force puts you in a situation where you must make a choice. It does not control what choices you make, but rather when you make them and where.

 

It is all control, and Kreia frees the Exile of all of it (save the Force, which he is already free from... or not?).

 

The question, then, is the Force still guiding the Exile? It would appear so. Up until he regains his Force powers, perhaps, it was not. His destiny was in his hands until then. So what (should)will happen after the events of KOTOR II? The Exile will once again sever his connection with the Force and truly be free.

 

Brain Storm Mode- Off

[Zilod]

i agree with almost anything just a little consideration about Kreia... i think she alredy got the knowledge and in KOTOR she try uses it to give counsciosness to the to the exile.

 

 

I think the exile is out of force control, but indirectly a tool for her purpose.

 

On malachor he was able to chose his destiny regarldess the choices that force put in front of him, i think is interesting when master biker describe him as blade that cut the future.

 

Still i think that in JTL he is under the influence of the force as he is under the influence of Kreia.

Due to this influence the exile becomes "predictable" and the force, manipulating Kreia is also manipulating him.

 

Also most of the time the force is manipulating the ones around him and in most cases it end up using the Exile as an instrument.

 

for example on Dantooine even if the exile is "free" he have to deal with the choices of the council (enslaved ) ending up in a no choice.

 

even for Atris it seem to be similar, with a "no choice" for the exile (and for Atris), but there something is different.

 

It seem that Atris destiny there comes to the end, she will die by the hand of the exile or by the hands (???) of the dark side (holocorns)

it seem that as the masters, or the jedi on malachor she have no other choice but here that the exile can give her a 3rd choice that i see out of "force control"

freeing herself from her enslavement.

 

If i interpretate this right it could show how the exile is really free from the force and how he can act against her, even if she is trying to manipulate him using the ones around him.

 

 

i think will be also interesting to try to understand if the force want to destroy the exile, i see dantooine as something like that, but is just a tought.

 

 

as said i still consider the Exile to be free, expecially after Kreia death, what will happens after KOTOR2... i don't think the exile will cut again himself from the force, at this point he is alredy free and will not be usefull, i think will be interesting to know what will happen in KOTOR3...

 

in my opinion the level and the characters of JTL are so high that will not be easy to reach it again. the fight for "freedom",for enlightment, for evolution, to free the galaxy from its enslavement is so important that a "simple" fight to save the galaxy against a menace, regardless of its danger, seem trivial to me...

[Helton]

as said i still consider the Exile to be free, expecially after Kreia death, what will happens after KOTOR2... i don't think the exile will cut again himself from the force, at this point he is alredy free and will not be usefull, i think will be interesting to know what will happen in KOTOR3...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's of course possible, but then he would have to travel alone (as Revan did) in order to be free of manipulation. But, I guess that is what he intends to do.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Freedom from slavery and equality for all.

[madwolfx]

she wants to destroy the force , but if she did that, she will destroy entire planet and galaxy!

anyway i think she didn't have any powers like that

[DSLuke]

I don't think she wants to destroy the Force, but to make eveyone unable to listen to the Force.

[kalimeeri]

I don't think she wants to destroy the Force, but to make eveyone unable to listen to the Force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Perhaps she simply wants people to be able use the Force as a tool -- instead of the other way around. In order to do that, one must be able to set it aside.

 

Good discussion, btw.

[The Great Phantom]

HUGE error. The Exile didn't cut himself out of want, but his body did what the human normally does. He was bonded with most people that died on Malachor V, and he felt their deaths almost as if he himself was dying. So, his body cut off the thing that was hurting him: the Force.

 

nope, during the game is said something like...

"the screams, the pain where so high that no jedi could resist them"

every jedi was experiencing that

 

what was killing or converting the jedis was Malachor itself

the purpose of Revan was to bound his/her trooups to him/her converting them to dark side and killing the one that will not follow him (HK says "to clean up the house" if i remember right)

 

every jedi was experiencing what the Exile felt, every jedi had the "choice" to leave the force but no one exept him chose that, they chose to die instead to be separed from the force.

 

So was not just the "what the human normally does" or other jedis have done the same, the natural instinct of self conservation was weaker than the bound to the force (tahn the will of the force).

 

On dantooine also Kreia says

"mandalorian wars wher a war of conversion [..] culminating in such a tragedy that no jedi can go away from it, save one"

and again

"how come one turn away from such power, give up the force and still live"

"It was because you where afraid"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

NOT SO! I'll pull out the quote if you want. The Exile 'died' a thousand times over, and he would have died, if he hadn't cut himself off. He didn't do it by choice, but subconsiously. I think we found where your flawed view of Kreia comes from...

[The Great Phantom]

She wanted to deafen others to it, or kill them if they weren't strong enough to cut themselves off, like the Exile did (albeit accidentally).

 

Like I said: If I feel anything for Kreia, it would be pity. The Force is a part of SW, and it always will be. Get used to it.

[Zilod]

NOT SO! I'll pull out the quote if you want. The Exile 'died' a thousand times over, and he would have died, if he hadn't cut himself off. He didn't do it by choice, but subconsiously. I think we found where your flawed view of Kreia comes from...

I can't see how this contraddict what i said

 

also i quote some dialogues from the game where is quite clear that all the jedi are suffering the same destiny as the exile...

simply there where not "able" to cut themslef from the force.

[The Great Phantom]

They're not suffering the same way. The Exile is bonded with ALL of them, so is suffering thousands of times as much. THAT is the ONLY reason why he cut himself off. It was that, or die.

[Wycked]

NOT SO! I'll pull out the quote if you want. The Exile 'died' a thousand times over, and he would have died, if he hadn't cut himself off. He didn't do it by choice, but subconsiously. I think we found where your flawed view of Kreia comes from...

I can't see how this contraddict what i said

 

also i quote some dialogues from the game where is quite clear that all the jedi are suffering the same destiny as the exile...

simply there where not "able" to cut themslef from the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I dont think all the Jedi in the wars suffered like the Exile did.

 

From what I understood, the thing that made the Exile so special is that he made bonds willy-nilly with practically everything that was around him. That's why he felt each life that was lost in Malachor V, and was cut from the force because of it.

 

When Kreia revealed herself to the council on Dantooine, she said she'll show them the deaths of everyone through the Exile's eyes. Unlike the Exile, who managed to survive because he was cut from the force, it killed the masters. At least that's what I got from the whole of it

[The Great Phantom]

Hey, you stole my term! (willy-nilly)

 

Thanks for the support, Wycked!

[Helton]

I can't see how this contraddict what i said

 

also i quote some dialogues from the game where is quite clear that all the jedi are suffering the same destiny as the exile...

simply there where not "able" to cut themslef from the force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If anyone else had felt the pain the Exile had they would have died or done the same thing he did. There is no turning to the dark side when you essentially experience 1000's of deaths first hand. You either die or, if you're a lucky bastard, you rip yourself out of the force.

[Zilod]

the bounds are important for the exile, even if even here the discussion is quite complex as i don't think they are the kind of bounds the councill think about and that they act the way they suppose.

 

 

what is killing or converting the jedis is malachor's corruption

again in the dantooine dialogue (LS) Kreia says something like

 

"There are place in the galaxy where the dark side is powerfull, in parth is a sith thing but is fuelled by the war and it corrputs everyone that walks on it feeding on the dead"

and again

"Revan knew the power of such places, and the power needed to build them"

 

Revan plans was to convert his army to the dark side and built such a place (malachor) to do that.

 

when the generator was activated the planet was fuelled by the death of jedis and mandalorians crashing on the planet and generated so much corruption that no one was able to sustain it.

 

at this point makes sense all the stances we found in the game that say something like...

 

"the screams in the force where so high that no jedi could sustain it" (Kreia or the Council, don't remember exactly)

"such a tragedy that no jedi can go away from it" (Kreia-dantooine LS)

"how come one turn away from such power, give up the force and still live" (Kreia-dantooine LS)

and even

"The Exile 'died' a thousand times over, and he would have died, if he hadn't cut himself off."

because it was the destiny of the other jedis that where not "able" to cut themselve from the force.

 

even when Kreia shows to the council malachor by the eyes of the exile i think she is "showing" them the corruption (or the consequences) of such place, a corruption that was generated in that battle and tha the exile felt in first person.

 

 

also a note i don't think that the exile tought "mmmm if i resist to corruption i will die, if i embrace it i will become a dark side, all i can do is to cut myself from the force".

I think it was not a counscios decision too, in my vision it happened something like that...

 

The corruption of malachor was relased, the jedi where suffering due to it's power and the scream in the force by the people died (something as Obi feel when Alderan is destroyed, but by a much higher scale)...

If they tried to resist to the corruption (as a good jedi should do) they where destroyed by it resulting in their death ("no jedi can go away from it").

if they felt the power of that corruption and embraced it they become siths ("it corrputs everyone that walks on it ")

 

I think the Exile saw that power, but saw an horror in it that he was not able to sustain, that horror was so high that he was struck by fear and just "tried" to turn away from it and to flee...

All of this is quite uncounscious, as a child that run away from something that scared him... i think that the only possible way to turn away from such horror was to turn away from the force itself, as the screams and the corruption where heard and carried by the force itself, so whitout know how he cut himself from the force.

 

in this vision make sense the statement "It was because you where afraid"

 

 

 

aaaa i think too that his bounds maybe have make him more sensible to such horror, but this doesn't imply that other jedis where not exposed to something so great to corrupt or kill them (as we can see in the quotes i posted above)

[Helton]

Those quotes don't say any other Jedi experienced the same thing, only that no Jedi has the power to live with that pain.

 

Yes, something happened at Malachor. A gravity-well was created, and it crushed everything on the planet. Nothing sentient survived. The Exile was bonded to every single Republic soldier and Jedi who was on Malachor V. Remember the pain he felt as Kreia lost her hand? Magnify that by a few million times and you'll get what he felt. He felt thousands of deaths, all at the same moment, and only he felt them.

 

What turned the rest of Revan's fleet is something different, it came later(or prior). The war itself turned many of his followers, and Revan's "fall" afterwards only magnified it.

[Zilod]

What turned the rest of Revan's fleet is something different, it came later(or prior). The war itself turned many of his followers, and Revan's "fall" afterwards only magnified it.

 

nono strongly disagree with this, if you listen at kreia LS dialogue it explain it pretty well....

 

Kreia herself says that the war where began to change the jedi, on dantooine, she speak about Revan plan to corrupt all his army and malachor was the final step the final corruption that had the power to complete their fall and to kill the ones that tried to resist to it.

 

i can quote all the dialogue but is pretty big, and i have to retranslate it lol , try to listen to that again if is not very clear i'll try to quote and reprase.